starting quickness

[Hockeydog 8]

I searched the forums and didn't find anything on this subject. If it's out there please point me in the right direction.

My most troublesome area of skating is quickness from a dead stop. I understand how to start using a crossover start, but the facing forward start is rough. Players I can easily outrun on dry land are much quicker on ice.

I understand the knee bend and the chopping ( not gliding) on the inside edges, and that it is like sprinting, but I don't really understand how and when my skates turn out. The way I learned the forward stride was maintaing the V position of my feet. Start in the V, return the foot the same way, skate always turned out. But when I watch skaters with great starts they seem to almost look as if they are running on dry land, yet they land on inside edges. Is this just an illusion and they are keepng their feet turned out, is it the way they shift their weight? If anyone can help out I would really appreciate it, as would my teammates and my stick that doesn't get many pucks passed to it!! Thanks !!

[Chadd 916]

Plyometrics, that should turn up in the search.

[ktang 34]

I think there are a few ways to do it; you have to try them all and see what works for your body type and proportions. Some of these forward starts are:

(i) Laura Stamm "run on your toes" V-start for 3-4 short strides, no gliding (what you describe);

(ii) Paul Kariya full blade contact, full stride length but no gliding, landing on the inside edges;

(iii) Pavel Bure full blade contact, longer than full stride length but no gliding, landing on the outside edges and rolling over them to the inside edges; and

(iv) Paul Coffey full strides from a standing start, full skating strides.

Add the knee bend, too.

[Alias81 0]

This may sound stupid but whats longer then full stride length?

[ktang 34]

This may sound stupid but whats longer then full stride length?

Somebody showed my in slo-mo how Bure (and Afinogenov, supposedly) land their forward skate, turned out, ahead of the knee. So, the forward skate contacts the ice on the outside edge. Then the skate rolls over to the inside edge (or is it pulled?).

[TheBert 0]

This may sound stupid but whats longer then full stride length?

Somebody showed my in slo-mo how Bure (and Afinogenov, supposedly) land their forward skate, turned out, ahead of the knee. So, the forward skate contacts the ice on the outside edge. Then the skate rolls over to the inside edge (or is it pulled?).

Anymore info on this?

[Hockeydog 8]

So does Bure drive his knee straight forward and land with his foot turned out or does he keep his leg bowed out when he drives the leg forward. It seems that if you driveyour leg/knee stright forward you have to turn the foot out at the last second. I guess that is where the entire motion breaks down for me, I don't know which is best. Good responses!!

Look down towards the bottom for link to starts

[Hockeydog 8]

Somebody showed my in slo-mo how Bure (and Afinogenov, supposedly) land their forward skate, turned out, ahead of the knee. So, the forward skate contacts the ice on the outside edge. Then the skate rolls over to the inside edge (or is it pulled?).

No wonder Bure's knees were shot! That sounds like a lot of tourqe on the knee.

[Kevin 5]

Acceleration is done with the inside edges. I don't know know where you got this information on Bure.

(iii) Pavel Bure full blade contact, longer than full stride length but no gliding, landing on the outside edges and rolling over them to the inside edges; and

[djosbun 0]

Lots of skaters I know received special lessons from figure skating coaches because of their expertise in how to use your edges effectively, especially using the outside edge and rolling into the inside edge. Supposedly this give extra power, and i'm not going to doubt it because those I know that have taken these special lessons can skate pretty damn well.

[Alias81 0]

Sounds like a legit technique worth trying, although I won't have any instructor so if my ankles break or my knees give way I'll tell my Momma ktang told me to do it.

[TBLfan 25]

seems like you must do it pretty fast or the outside edge catching will cause you to slow down and widen your legs. Must take some extra leg strength just to recover, with as bad as my knees are I'd never bother trying it.

BTW, I'm a big fan of the exaggerated and strong toe flick. Watch Modano skate and you'll see what I mean, he turns on his outside edge and toe flicks to gain speed better than I can with a freaking crossover. I've been working on it but I can only dream of my toe flick being half as strong as Modano's.

[ktang 34]

Acceleration is done with the inside edges. I don't know know where you got this information on Bure.

(iii) Pavel Bure full blade contact, longer than full stride length but no gliding, landing on the outside edges and rolling over them to the inside edges; and

It was a slo-mo video of him doing starts. There are many techniques, and as some others say you probably have to be super-elite-strong to do his technique with any success at all.

Talking about learning new techniques (and being open-minded): in the video link that hockeydog provides with the instructor, Sergei, drops his skate directly behind him before accelerating forward. That's a new one for me. I'm going to try it out to see if it works for me or not.

It's similar to another technique I have seen for crossover starts for heavier skaters; if they are crossing over to the right, they move the right skate towards the left one before crossing over.

[Kevin 5]

Can you post a link to this slow-mo video?

In the video posted by Hockeydog, Sergei, the instructor, specifically references the inside edges when he's talking about forward starts. Here are some links regarding starts, all of which reference the use of the inside edges:

http://www.robbyglantz.com/quickstart.html

http://www.hockeyskating.com/articles_starting.asp

http://books.google.com/books?id=3wxvXoLXB...DmjIc#PPA109,M1

I have no interest in arguing over this, but I get the impression that I probably first taught power skating (1986) before some of you were born.

Acceleration is done with the inside edges. I don't know know where you got this information on Bure.

(iii) Pavel Bure full blade contact, longer than full stride length but no gliding, landing on the outside edges and rolling over them to the inside edges; and

It was a slo-mo video of him doing starts. There are many techniques, and as some others say you probably have to be super-elite-strong to do his technique with any success at all.

Talking about learning new techniques (and being open-minded): in the video link that hockeydog provides with the instructor, Sergei, drops his skate directly behind him before accelerating forward. That's a new one for me. I'm going to try it out to see if it works for me or not.

It's similar to another technique I have seen for crossover starts for heavier skaters; if they are crossing over to the right, they move the right skate towards the left one before crossing over.

[TheBert 0]

So does Bure drive his knee straight forward and land with his foot turned out or does he keep his leg bowed out when he drives the leg forward. It seems that if you driveyour leg/knee stright forward you have to turn the foot out at the last second. I guess that is where the entire motion breaks down for me, I don't know which is best. Good responses!!

Look down towards the bottom for link to starts

Those were great. Is that your beer league?

[biff44 0]

There are three things you need for explosive starts/footspeed.

1) you need leg muscles proportional to your body weight. So, if you are heavy, you need tree trunks. Hit the weight room. Squats, calf raises, adductor, abductor, etc. Build up the mass.

2) then after you have something to work with, you need to develop expl0siveness. To do that you either need to start olympic lifting, or plyometrics (especially broad jump, cone hop).

3) you need the skating technique. See some of the sites mentioned above. One trick they do at some of the skating camps--lay 4 sticks down in front of you, at progressively farther distances, and jump into the center of each space as you accelerate.

[Zamboni 6]

Its definetly the front inside edges in use on 'running' starts, get out over the toes and lengthen the 'jump' as you transition into a normal skating stride....that meaning the 3rd-4th strides are longer than the quick first two.

Concentrate on driving forward for the most efficient start. A common mistake is wasting energy on an up-down motion when skating, that most comes into play on explosive starts. Everyone uses the sprinter comparison because its easiest to visualize, the sprinters body is coiled (our knee bend) and thrust is forward with little up-down motion.

Forget the sticks, that distraction makes it harder to eliminate up/down. Concentrate on toes and inner edges, maybe 2 10 minute drills at '1/2 speed' will get you started on proper form thrusting forward. Next add concentrating on all power going forward and each 'step' being longer as you go into a normal stride. TBLFan touched upon the toe kick, that toe snap will give you power so after progressively mastering the running starts balance incorporate the toe kick into the 2nd-3rd-4th strides, hopefully it is already natural in your basic stride.

Hope thats clear, heard an expression "talking about art is like dancing about architecture"....holds true on skating, very hard to write about.

[Jordan 13]

Another common mistake is to rock back on to the back leg to load it up. This is a waste of biomechanical energy, all of the force should propell forwards.

[Hockeydog 8]

Ktang, I have seen a technique such as that start to the rear taught in tennis.

In tennis a player is more or less facing stright forward all the time, this method was shown as a way of sprinting forward for a short ball. I will try it Thursday when I hit the ice, but it looks like one move too many. There is much good info on this thread. I watched myself in the glass the other night and when sprinting stright at the glas my feet never point straight ahead.

[ktang 34]

Can you post a link to this slow-mo video?

In the video posted by Hockeydog, Sergei, the instructor, specifically references the inside edges when he's talking about forward starts. Here are some links regarding starts, all of which reference the use of the inside edges:

http://www.robbyglantz.com/quickstart.html

http://www.hockeyskating.com/articles_starting.asp

http://books.google.com/books?id=3wxvXoLXB...DmjIc#PPA109,M1

I have no interest in arguing over this, but I get the impression that I probably first taught power skating (1986) before some of you were born.

Acceleration is done with the inside edges. I don't know know where you got this information on Bure.

(iii) Pavel Bure full blade contact, longer than full stride length but no gliding, landing on the outside edges and rolling over them to the inside edges; and

It was a slo-mo video of him doing starts. There are many techniques, and as some others say you probably have to be super-elite-strong to do his technique with any success at all.

Talking about learning new techniques (and being open-minded): in the video link that hockeydog provides with the instructor, Sergei, drops his skate directly behind him before accelerating forward. That's a new one for me. I'm going to try it out to see if it works for me or not.

It's similar to another technique I have seen for crossover starts for heavier skaters; if they are crossing over to the right, they move the right skate towards the left one before crossing over.

Unfortunately the video is not mine. I did a quick google and I can't find it on the web (yet).

I'm assuming that (and correct me if I'm wrong), as a power skating instructor, you have one start technique that you have taught to all pupils since 1986. Kind of like a one-size-fits-all.

My point is that there are many start techniques, and each skater needs to try them out to find the one that works best for them. Alternatively, an instructor versed in many of the start techniques can suggest one that may work best for the individual skater, based on body proportions and type, bowleggedness, etc.

The variations in techniques is what is interesting to me. I can understand that instructors would want to master demonstrating and teaching one technique instead of knowing several techniques to lesser degrees.

I'm thinking that the Bure technique would only work for bowlegged skaters, and as TBLfan mentions, he lands on the outside edges but does roll onto and push off from the inside edges. Was his quickness due to that technique, or in spite of it?

The technique demonstrated in hockeydog's link and mentioned by Jordan above (the rocking back on the back leg to load it up, which is a new one to me that I want to try out), is definitely a different technique from the ones that are in your links (thanks for those).

Paul Kariya lands on the inside flats (instead of the inside front edges) of his blades, has 3 long strides with no glide, and is considered to be quick. That technique is different from the one in your links (short chops, landing on inside front edges). Is he successful because of his technique, or in spite of it? Would this technique be the best for all skaters, or only for some (e.g. skaters with a lower centre of gravity)?

Paul Coffey tried to not "run" when he did his starts (so if there were 4 sticks on the ice, he would have hit some or all of them). Would this technique be the best for all skaters? Scott Nidermayer seems to be the same way.

The Barb Aidelbaum link talks about 80-degree turn-out of the hips and feet, and a 45-degree skate angle. She and Laura Stamm also use the inside front edges. What if the skater is bowlegged, or knock-kneed? What if the skater is built like a linebacker, or like a soccer player? Maybe different turn-out and skate angles would work better for them.

The Hockey Canada coaching guides talk about the first running start skate angle being 72 degrees, the second being 60 degrees, and the third being 45 degrees.

What if the skater uses a neutral or negative pitch (e.g. defensemen)? Then a different starting technique might be needed.

BTW, I'm a big fan of the exaggerated and strong toe flick. Watch Modano skate and you'll see what I mean, he turns on his outside edge and toe flicks to gain speed better than I can with a freaking crossover. I've been working on it but I can only dream of my toe flick being half as strong as Modano's.

I think he flicks more than from the ankle; it looks like he does his toe flick by rotating from the hip joint (the knee also rotates out a bit).

[Kevin 5]

All starts use the inside edges, regardless of small differences in technique. I have never seen or heard from any reputable source or instructor advocating starting using the outside edges. If anyone has such a source, please post it.

[chk hrd 164]

Its definetly the front inside edges in use on 'running' starts, get out over the toes and lengthen the 'jump' as you transition into a normal skating stride....that meaning the 3rd-4th strides are longer than the quick first two.

Concentrate on driving forward for the most efficient start. A common mistake is wasting energy on an up-down motion when skating, that most comes into play on explosive starts. Everyone uses the sprinter comparison because its easiest to visualize, the sprinters body is coiled (our knee bend) and thrust is forward with little up-down motion.

Forget the sticks, that distraction makes it harder to eliminate up/down. Concentrate on toes and inner edges, maybe 2 10 minute drills at '1/2 speed' will get you started on proper form thrusting forward. Next add concentrating on all power going forward and each 'step' being longer as you go into a normal stride. TBLFan touched upon the toe kick, that toe snap will give you power so after progressively mastering the running starts balance incorporate the toe kick into the 2nd-3rd-4th strides, hopefully it is already natural in your basic stride.

Hope thats clear, heard an expression "talking about art is like dancing about architecture"....holds true on skating, very hard to write about.

and watch your arm swing. alot of people swing thier arms like they are throwing hay and waste alot of energy and balance to to much side to side movement. Your arms should be going toward your opposite leg with your hands finishing in line of your legs.

[TBLfan 25]

If you watch St Louis he does a running start with head down stick parrallel to the ice, he also gets really low and uses explosive bursts from his legs. His knee bend is extreme.

In a slightly related story; Prospal looks like he's falling down... clumsy and awkward, he's not very fast.

BTW, I'm a big fan of the exaggerated and strong toe flick. Watch Modano skate and you'll see what I mean, he turns on his outside edge and toe flicks to gain speed better than I can with a freaking crossover. I've been working on it but I can only dream of my toe flick being half as strong as Modano's.

I think he flicks more than from the ankle; it looks like he does his toe flick by rotating from the hip joint (the knee also rotates out a bit).

Yeah, he uses his hips and a slight knee bend to deep knee bend depending on how hard he wants to push.

I think that the start is very dependent on a comfort factor mixed with body mechanics, muscle mass and body type... Which means that for the most part it's going to change person to person even with the slightest variations. This is also known as "personal preference."

[big ben 0]

BTW, I'm a big fan of the exaggerated and strong toe flick.

What is a toe flick?

[Hockeydog 8]

At the end of the push you give a last push off the toe of the skate. Kinda like jumping rope. Imagine pointing your toe almost straight back when you are done with the stride, but with force.