Graf Canada SUCKS - run like a Mickey Mouse Operation

[jokerit1967 0]

I am a big Graf skate fan. It's a pro-European player/equipment thing from the late 80's early 90's. Ok, so I admit I thought it was awesome if Vladimir Malakhov , Sergei Bautin, Boris Mironov, etc had Graf skates on...

For those of you bother to read this... For such a long rant, I'll admit I should proofread for errors and whether or not any of this makes sense....Apologies in advance, all that.

I also must admit that Graf has not screwed me as a customer. I just have been a fan of the brand for a while, and think that they are too pro mediocrity, and for some reason it's really irritating right now.

So...what's the deal with Graf Canada? I am not sure if the whole company is run strangely or poorly, or if it is Graf Canada alone... It was simpler in the early 90's I had Graf's and they said made in Switzerland, and the phone number was long with the crazy country code schism that I don't fully understand....So, if there was a true Graf Canada back then, aside from just a distributos, i had no idea...

Graf needs to do a better job of promoting new products through their website.

the Graf Ultra G-70 has been in some retailers hands for a bit. It would be appropriate for Graf to update their site --> you clowns. Many successful businesses put the products on their site BEFORE they come out. This helps with anticipation, promotion, etc. Since Graf doesn't really advertise and supposedly doesn't do paid endorsements... It would makes sense for you to properly utilize your site. Even Karsten Solheim who liked particular types of ads (very conservative, low budget ads) was relatively consistent - putting ads up BEFORE a product came out!

It was weeks before your dealer locator/where to buy function worked. That's slop for a real company. If MSH doesn't work...these guys aren't getting paid; this isn't their livlihood. When a company has a feature that is not working for a while... it just has such an air of storybookland v. Great Adventure.... (low end... localism level business... struggling, etc.)

You could discuss/promote mention the Graf custom footbed program that is coming out soon. You also could maybe put pictures of the upcoming G3.... it is fairly common for companies - say very successful marketing companies... ex. BMW for instance.. to put up pictures, downloadable brochures much in advance of when a product actually comes to market (helps create buzz)....

also, seems your customer service is lacking ... from some posts I've read of people with problems - you don't seem to want to resolve it...

And there was the Graf employee who when threatened with suit by a disgruntled customer responded that he was a lawyer and would be there in court... Ok, so you're a small business - it doesn't help you grow if you act like clowns....

check out Taylor Made Adidas Golf or Callaway - learn from true premium companies to learn proper customer service - it's not like you guys have so many more customers than you can deal with... Graf skates cost a lot - you could treat your customers like they purchased premium products - you definitely shouldn't act like hacks.

Why don't you try updating the foot-type poster to accomodate the other models/lasts now in your line? promote the many different fits that Graf - that's pretty much the strength of your line... dropping the ball over there are you? ok so maybe you haven't updated the site because you have many things on your mind over there - maybe if you treated your customers better... promoted yourself in the ways that you can .... the best you can through the channels you've chosen - then maybe you could pay the web site guy to update the site more frequently instead of playing little league on your shoe string budget...

Your "no questions can be answered about our products" - you need to speak to our dealer is ridiculous. Ok, it's nice to protect your accounts, but seriously all of them are not equally capable of answering questions. You are the "manufacturer" i expect your answers about materials or specs to be definitive. 've bugged golf companies, car companies, Guitar manufacturers, guitar amplifier companies,Seymour Duncan, Dimarzio, Soldano, G. Loomis fishing rods, golf shaft manufacturers, high end Hi-fi companies, and of course RBK, Nike BAuer Hockey, and Montreal/Tackla, even f**king Frito-Lay --> all of them were happy to answer the questions that they could regarding their current product line, etc. Your method of stonewalling end-consumer questions might make your payroll lighter, and the phones easier to manage by dumping off phone calls with the "are you a retailer? we don't answer any consumer questions regarding our products. you'll have to contact a dealer" yeah OK.

Maybe you guys could promote the idea of custom skates, since it's not really mentioned on the NBH site. Graf could list all the options, and explain how even though you have all those other lasts/fits that some of us need that custom fit skate, or how some of us who don't need it just might want our skates flashier than the rest or more conservative than the rest. You could copy MIA's slant towards customizing -- although don't follow their lead of f*cking the LHS or end-retailer.

Hey you guys over there might all be smarter than me... but there is a quote i like "wise men know that they don't know everything..." check out businesses in hockey, and other segments to see how they handle things... for a company to take a premium niche the customer relations is extremely important - even if you hate the customer - you should at least PRETEND to be nice... also, maybe if you could get to the top of whatever... then you could go back to the anti-customer service, anti-information, KGB tactics... or maybe for you guys at Graf it's "status quo...status quo...status quo..." (things are comfy and ok...let's not push the envelope or make a stand...)

I still love the brand and Graf skates... just wish I could get the ones where the guys in Canada don't make any money on it. Actually, I do plan to go to Europe next year - that would be great to get skates abroad right? European Car companies offer European delivery... why not European Delivery of skates? although the mechanism/process would be different.... hmmm...

I pretty much skate in NBH One90's right now.

[Keith 0]

The small company excuse is pitiful when it comes to cs b/c the Kor guys were great about my issue and even sent me a personal email follow up weeks afterwards to make sure I was happy.

[trox_355 0]

Write a letter.

Write a letter to Graf Canada. Hell, send it over to Switzerland while you're at it. Write it in a business letter format, send it and see what you get back. Include the website address of this forum, so they know there's a community of people who do talk about products.

I don't have any personal experience with Graf, but hearing from others I can definitely understand your concerns. Especially given their top-tier pricing. Customer service is lacking in many markets, nowadays. That being said, there's still no reason not to expect it.

And for other who may give accounts of their positive experiences with the company--great; this means someone, somewhere in the organization genuinely cares. Keep in mind however, the negative experiences--like what you, jokerit describe--make more of an impact to a company's reputation.

[djinferno 2]

Mickey Mouse Operation, wow thats one way of calling it :lol:

http://www.modsquadhockey.com/forums/index...ic=4840&hl=

[jokerit1967 0]

Mickey Mouse Operation, wow thats one way of calling it laugh.gif

Quoting:

Mike Hill President at Graf:

As for your continued threats of legal action in order to pursue this claim, we find such threats to be quite uncalled for and frankly, quite immature; however, should you choose this course of action we would certainly be glad to meet you in court. I am a lawyer and will be present in court if and when such action is brought before a court of law.

Everyone and their brother is a lawyer. So, Mike Hill would be present in court? That veiled threat is mickey-mouse. M-I-C-K-E-Y M-O-U-S-E.

Great customer relations material Mr. Hill. M-I-C-K-E-Y M-O-U-S-E.

I'm assuming that he is actually a proprietor or high percentage equity-holder in a closely held company, because if he is ultimately responsible for everything Graf Canada has done/or is doing, I doubt that investors would be at all happy.

Further, if you attempt to disparage our products in a manner we believe to be unfair you may be assured that you will be on the other end of the lawsuit. Govern yourself accordingly

Regards,

GRAF Canada Ltd.

attempt to disparage... in a manner we believe to be unfair? Unless the pictures, etc. were victims of photoshop it is Graf that disparaged their own quality control, and their own products by letting a product with the Graf brand name end up in an end consumer's hands.

"govern yourself accordingly..."

nice.

M-I-C-K-E-Y M-O-U-S-E.

well as far as an action in tort goes for Mike Hill, Esq. and Graf Canada Ltd. their case falls far short since libel/defamtion would require at the minimum:

1. A false and defamatory statement concerning another;

2. The unprivileged publication of the statement to a third party (that is, somebody other than the person defamed by the statement);

3. If the defamatory matter is of public concern, fault amounting at least to negligence on the part of the publisher; and

4. Damage to the plaintiff.

if the statements about the skates are not false... then I'd love to see the after-school special court-TV version of this case. Summary Judgment anyone?

So, long as the skate story is true. It can be spread from the Halls of Montezuma to the shores of Tripoli.

As far as the M-I-C-K-E-Y M-O-U-S-E operations stuff, that is separate from the reputation of Graf products, but more points to the officers and corporate mentality of Graf. The letter and simple common sense shows that element #1 from above would also fail in a civil tort suit in the United States. (Not like U.S. citizens worry about being haled into Canadian court...Graf Canada needs its minimum contacts in the United States (satisfying personal jurisdiction easily) way more than an individual U.S. citizen needs relations with Canada.

anyhow... massive digression with incomplete analysis...

[Sven 1]

Actually, I do plan to go to Europe next year - that would be great to get skates abroad right?

Yeah, thats the way. Ive had only good experiences with Graf CH and heard a lot of bad stuff about Graf CA. Sorry to hear that from you again.

[wristshot19 0]

I would have to agree with the assessment of the Graf Canada company. One retailer near me who carried Graf hasn't seen a Graf rep since his last one died. He has made calls without one being returned. Now that's a great way of taking care of the shops that support your existence.

[Hockeydog 8]

Is there a way to buy from Graf Switzerland? I guess Graf Canada owns the market in North America.

[jokerit1967 0]

Is there a way to buy from Graf Switzerland? I guess Graf Canada owns the market in North America.

There is no convenient way. Aside from traveling to Europe (or I guess anywhere outside of the U.S. that Graf Skates AG (Switzerland) deals with) see http://www.grafskates.ch/ (the site is also selectable in English).

There is also the contacting a non-domestic retailer that purchases from Graf Skates AG (Switzerland).

The "buddy system" where a really friendly person who lives in one of those places picks them up and ships them to you/send them money, etc.

Unfortunately, we can deal with the "real" of Graf very easily. We get the lo-res version.

[Drewhunz 3]

Quick heads up- your signature is too long.

[usahockey22 0]

Yep, it appears that Graf has caused problems for many people. I wouldn't even waste my time writing a letter to these clowns, it's obvious that they will quickly pitch it, without giving any thought whatsoever to the idea that they could perhaps be anything less than infallible.

The one message that will cause them to clean up their act is sales...don't buy their products, as I have decided to do. I like the new ultra-G skates, but there's no way I can justify spending over $500 on a product, without the assurance that the company will do whatever is necessary to make me happy, should something go wrong. All of the other brands seem to have excellent customer service, and Graf's sales and reputation are going to pot.

Just don't buy their stuff, and don't recommend it to anyone else. They will soon either get the message, or get out of the business.

[sikocycles 1]

I really like the new g70 but will really have to check over the skate before I buy it. If I buy it. I hate companies with bad c/s.

[mew1838 0]

Ok, this rant is mostly about their website? How about the Kor website that doesn't even give an exact date for the Shift 2?

Customer service sucks, anything new? As long as people buy their product, they will survive. If you don't like their C/S, get people to boycott their products and ask you LHS to stop stocking up GRAF.

I seriously don't think GRAF is capable of competing with the big boys anymore. Their main customers are the loyal freaks who just won't try skates with better technology. If they screw these people, they have no customer.

Talk about giving Canada a bad reputation as a whole...........

[jokerit1967 0]

Ok, this rant is mostly about their website?

Customer service sucks, anything new? As long as people buy their product, they will survive. If you don't like their C/S, get people to boycott their products and ask you LHS to stop stocking up GRAF.

no the website is indicative of the way the company is run (mickey mouse).

i think they (as in the brand in general) have been around much longer than KOR.

Actually most people's experience with customer service (especially for premium products is very good.... and it if customer service isn't truly that good many companies are lucky enough to get by on a perception that it is at least ok. It all depends on if you want your business to grow...or if you don't mind letting it get smaller. Here, in the situation of a small company like Graf Canada - Mickey Mouse tactics once again rule the day.

Boycotting... that reminds me of treehugging tactics, but yes the bottom line is what often gets companies to change. Graf Canada supposedly isn't doing well financially... and the mickey mouse thematic comes in... where properly run companies... i.e. one's that are run by good officers/directors know when they should change.. obviously the formula isn't working for Graf... so we once again go back to Mickey Mouse Operation.

but yes... maybe they will fade into the sunset... or hopfully someone else will take over the brand, and do it justice.

[djinferno 2]

5 of the 6 LHS in my area dropped them after they found out what happenned to me 3 of them picked up Mission, I feel I did my part...

[Sammy 0]

Ok, this rant is mostly about their website? How about the Kor website that doesn't even give an exact date for the Shift 2?

Customer service sucks, anything new? As long as people buy their product, they will survive. If you don't like their C/S, get people to boycott their products and ask you LHS to stop stocking up GRAF.

I seriously don't think GRAF is capable of competing with the big boys anymore. Their main customers are the loyal freaks who just won't try skates with better technology. If they screw these people, they have no customer.

Talk about giving Canada a bad reputation as a whole...........

If you wanna talk about a bad website, check out Easton for hockey. They still think we are in 2006

[mew1838 0]

5 of the 6 LHS in my area dropped them after they found out what happenned to me 3 of them picked up Mission, I feel I did my part...

Well you got a pair of free skates dude....

[jokerit1967 0]

If you wanna talk about a bad website, check out Easton for hockey. They still think we are in 2006

Yeah - i saw that the other day, but I figured that Easton was busy with softball and baseball bats, or maybe even their drum stick line. Easton was afterall a bat company that invaded hockey... it's not like they're one of the older hockey companies. They more than likely make a lot more cash in their bat line anyhow. They probably don't care about hockey 2007 until the early fall.

Graf Canada Ltd doesn't have such distractions. Nor are they known to be as financially stable as Easton.

[Fire0nIce228 1]

5 of the 6 LHS in my area dropped them after they found out what happenned to me 3 of them picked up Mission, I feel I did my part...

Well you got a pair of free skates dude....

And whats your point?

His shops may have dumped Graf anyways after hearing the story whether Mission(Justin) helped as much as he did anyways. From what I've heard, with as craptastic the CS has been lately for customers, I'm sure they are not treating their distributors much better. Hearing that story might have just been the straw that broke the camels back, with the distributor not wanting to sell Graf skates and then deal with a customer who Graf CA would not help.

Obviously Mission cares much more about its customers. I'm sure the distributors would much rather deal with a company they know goes out and really tries to make things right. Of course in that instance they went well above and beyond, and did something Mission had no requirement to do whatsoever.

Giving him skates was icing on the cake. Justin said giving Mission a look was all he asked in return, and by telling the story, tons of people are getting a look at Mission now..

[epstud74 24]

Ok, this rant is mostly about their website? How about the Kor website that doesn't even give an exact date for the Shift 2?

Customer service sucks, anything new? As long as people buy their product, they will survive. If you don't like their C/S, get people to boycott their products and ask you LHS to stop stocking up GRAF.

I seriously don't think GRAF is capable of competing with the big boys anymore. Their main customers are the loyal freaks who just won't try skates with better technology. If they screw these people, they have no customer.

Talk about giving Canada a bad reputation as a whole...........

What Graf Canada doesnt seem to understand is that customer service also falls under the realm of "quality control." Have you tried to email their contact on their website? Good luck, it'll just bounce back to you.

[louis 0]

This isn't encouraging at all... All that can fit me will be Graf's

[Jarick 5]

Graf's terrible website steered me away from their skates.

[Hockeydog 8]

How did those Missions work out djinferno? I am also thinking of anothe Graf purchase, my 704's were bought a little too long and are a bit shallow, but the heel is perfect. I'd like to know what in the Mission line fits a deep foot with an A size heel and a wide fore foot. Based on Justin's act of customer service I'd like to take a serious look, but don't have a LHS that carries them. I can buy online if I need to.

[epstud74 24]

How did those Missions work out djinferno? I am also thinking of anothe Graf purchase, my 704's were bought a little too long and are a bit shallow, but the heel is perfect. I'd like to know what in the Mission line fits a deep foot with an A size heel and a wide fore foot. Based on Justin's act of customer service I'd like to take a serious look, but don't have a LHS that carries them. I can buy online if I need to.

The Nike Flexlite brand seems to work great with people who have a fairly thick foot and narrow width heel.

[djinferno 2]

How did those Missions work out djinferno? I am also thinking of anothe Graf purchase, my 704's were bought a little too long and are a bit shallow, but the heel is perfect. I'd like to know what in the Mission line fits a deep foot with an A size heel and a wide fore foot. Based on Justin's act of customer service I'd like to take a serious look, but don't have a LHS that carries them. I can buy online if I need to.

They worked great for me, the only thing the S500 hed diferent was the heel being a tad wide coming from the 703, I was told that the Fuel 120 is better in that respect so i'mn wating for those to come out to give em a try...

The shining star of the Mission right now is the Pitch3 holder, it's great