Blackstone Flat-Bottom V Thread

[SAK 2]

Happy to report there are players using FBV on most teams in the NHL.

[Mikej411 2]

Happy to report there are players using FBV on most teams in the NHL.

Yes but how many/percentage on teams? Penguins equipment manager said the only player on the PEns was Matt Cooke at this time. Someone on here said only one player from the Capitals.

[SAK 2]

Mike, all I can go by is what the teams order in way of spinners. I can tell you that some teams have the majority of players on FBV and some teams don't. This is usually determined by the equipment managers and how open they are with trying different things out with players. (some people are open to change and some are not) Some equipment managers are big with Bauer and some equipment managers are big with Easton. If you pay attention of what what the majority of players are using usually you can figure out what brand the equipment manager likes. It is Blackstone's commitment to improving technology through skate sharpening which allows us to go forward and improve performance for players just like when a company develops a better type of skate. You will note that not all people will use that skate just like not everyone uses FBV. I am very pleased with the amount of players in the NHL that are on the FBV I know that it is something that will improve everyone's game as my experience and the 3 year study that the University of Ottawa has done, which concluded that their is a real and significant increase in agility and flow for the user. We knew this without the study however it was fun to get it back on paper. Sorry for the long response however I can see that you maybe concerned and hope I've addressed your concerns.

[Mikej411 2]

No concern, I was just curious, that's all. Two teams is a small sample size and I'm sure other teams have a greater number of players using FBV. It'd be nice to hear that from a specific team's trainer/Equipment Manager.

For me personally, I found 100/50 FBV has been inconsistent, the first couple times it was great and had just enough bite and superior glide. The next 2 times it felt like I had no bite at all and I kept falling. I think this was due to the sharpener though, as i go to Total Hockey and someone new does them every time. I just tried 100/75 and while it provided a good amount of bite, I didn't feel the glide benefit that I did with 100/50

Edited March 22, 2013 by Mikej411

[Durbo20vT 4]

I had new my steel profiled & decided to give the FBV a try. I usually skate on 5/8 or 3/4,depending on how soft the ice is (6'5" 270), so I was recommended the 90/75. First impression was that gliding and speed were much much better, but the bite on my stride suffered a little during "non-intense" situations. I felt like my feet slipped out a few times @ the beginning of my stride on recreational skating (to the bench or prior to faceoff), but in pursuit of the puck or when really digging in, that slip wasn't present. Turning was great at high speeds, and most of all, endurance picked up big time. My legs usually are shot & fatigued the next day, but with the FBV I didnt notice any of my usual post game symptoms. That alone makes the change seem worthwhile!

I will give it a few more skates to get more accustomed to this setup, but I'm wondering if it's worth it to go one step sharper.

which is...? 95/75 ?

[SAK 2]

I find that the biggest issues for sharpening is not just equal edges but hand honing. A simple thing to do is keep a hand hone on hand and don't be afraid to use it. Sharpening will put the shape on the bottom of the blade however hand honing provides the bite. Regardless what shape you use hand honing the skate will "keen" the edge. Stay sharp!

I had new my steel profiled & decided to give the FBV a try. I usually skate on 5/8 or 3/4,depending on how soft the ice is (6'5" 270), so I was recommended the 90/75. First impression was that gliding and speed were much much better, but the bite on my stride suffered a little during "non-intense" situations. I felt like my feet slipped out a few times @ the beginning of my stride on recreational skating (to the bench or prior to faceoff), but in pursuit of the puck or when really digging in, that slip wasn't present. Turning was great at high speeds, and most of all, endurance picked up big time. My legs usually are shot & fatigued the next day, but with the FBV I didnt notice any of my usual post game symptoms. That alone makes the change seem worthwhile!

I will give it a few more skates to get more accustomed to this setup, but I'm wondering if it's worth it to go one step sharper.

which is...? 95/75 ?

I would try the 95/75. I think you'll like it.

[Original Six 1]

I haven't been able to find a copy of the University of Ottawa study anywhere on line, just lots of references to it and even one site using it to promote Blademaster's BFD. Can anyone provide a link or post a copy of the actual study/white paper?

[jimmy 194]

I haven't been able to find a copy of the University of Ottawa study anywhere on line, just lots of references to it and even one site using it to promote Blademaster's BFD. Can anyone provide a link or post a copy of the actual study/white paper?

Was that the study that was funded by Blademaster?

[Original Six 1]

I don't know who actually funded the study, but SAK mentioned it in this thread about 6 posts back and I've also seen it mentioned on numerous web pages.

[SAK 2]

Blackstone worked with the University of Ottawa. I will see if I can get it up on this site. I'm not quite sure why it is not up.

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

Blademaster has done there's with Brock University. Blackstone was U of O....as mentioned.

I do not think U of O ever did anything with Blademaster.

The Max Edge one was with Brock as well I believe?

[Original Six 1]

Ok - thanks. And the Brock University study /whitepaper can be found where exactly? Can you provide a link or a copy?

[SAK 2]

Was that the study that was funded by Blademaster?

Jimmy I don't think that another University would bother testing the same thing twice. Once the studies are done they are public domain.

[jimmy 194]

Jimmy I don't think that another University would bother testing the same thing twice. Once the studies are done they are public domain.

Yea, I just couldn't remember which one as funded by them. I tried to get a copy of the Brock one years ago but Kelly wouldn't give it up.

[Original Six 1]

I believe that I've found the Brock University study which speaks to the Blademaster BFD. The study is called THE EFFECT OF SKATE BLADE RADIUS OF CONTOUR AND RADIUS OF HOLLOW ON SKATING PERFORMANCE IN MALE ICE HOCKEY PLAYERS and was conducted by Andrew McKenzie, B.Sc. Kin. and was submitted in partial fulfillment of the requirements for the degree of Master of Science in Applied Health Sciences(Kinesiology)under the supervision of Dr. Kelly Lockwood, Ph.D., Faculty of Applied Health Sciences, Brock University, St. Catharines, Ontario. Here is a link to the study: https://dr.library.brocku.ca/bitstream/handle/10464/4068/Brock_McKenzie_Andrew_2012.pdf?sequence=1<br />On page 32 of the study (page 41 of the PDF) it reads as follows: It was hypothesized that, the addition of a flat-bottomed hollow shape to the contour of choice, would result in an additional enhancement to skating performance. The outcome of the present study indicated that the flat-bottomed hollow shape did not create an additional effect on skating performance compared to the conventional hollow. Many of the participants commented that the flat-bottomed hollow caused their blades to feel too sharp, inhibiting glide while skating.<br /><br />This Brock study was an interesting read (particularly the conclusions around single vs. double vs. triple contours), but my take on it was that there was no real/measurable benefit to BFD over a conventional/traditional ROH...please let me know if you feel otherwise after reading it for yourself. All this said, I'd still like to read the University of Ottawa study that speak's to Blackstone's FBV and would appreciate it if someone could post a link to it.

[jimmy 194]

The BFD is different than the real FBV, so it would be interesting to see a independent study. I've done my own study, 6000 switched to FBV, only 10 went back to hollow cuts. :-)

[JR Boucicaut 3797]

The shape that was tested there was the natural progression from a regular ROH. Blackstone deemed that it wasn't beneficial, so they continued to refine the shape to what it is today - I'm sure Steve will elaborate - so not surprised by Brock's findings.

[Original Six 1]

I think you misunderstood...the study I commented on in my previous post was Brock's, not U of Ottawa, and it is not about Blackstone's FBV...it mentions Blademaster's BFD... and it was conducted in June 2012, so I don't know just how much "refining" Blademaster has done to their X6 cut since then...I'm guessing it is unchanged since last June. Again, I look forward to reading the U of Ottawa study that does speak to Blackstone's FBV.

[JR Boucicaut 3797]

I think you misunderstood...the study I commented on in my previous post was Brock's, not U of Ottawa, and it is not about Blackstone's FBV...it mentions Blademaster's BFD... and it was conducted in June 2012, so I don't know just how much "refining" Blademaster has done to their X6 cut since then...I'm guessing it is unchanged since last June. Again, I look forward to reading the U of Ottawa study that does speak to Blackstone's FBV.

No, I think you misunderstood me.

Re-read my post.

[Original Six 1]

Just re-read your post and I'm still confused. You mentioned Blackstone continuing to refine, etc., etc., but they weren't talking about Blackstone at all... they were talking about Blademaster's X6. I don't understand what the Brock study has to do with Blackstone? Please explain.

[jsykes 35]

He's saying that the study used Blademasters BFD which is a progression from a regular ROH and that when Blackstone tried that shape they found no beneficial difference, which is what the Brock study is also saying. Since Blackstone found no benefit, they continued to refine their shape till they came up with the FBV.

[Original Six 1]

Thanks for explaining. I was under the impression all along that Blademaster had "copied" Blackstone and tried to get around any potential patent infringement by "rounding" their edges to resemble ROH edges vs. FBV "fangs." Hence, I thought Blackstone FBV was introduced to the market place first and Bladematster's BFD was a "copycat" technology.

[JR Boucicaut 3797]

And that is still all true. But BS tested the shape and knew it didn't work. BM didn't.

[jimmy 194]

No concern, I was just curious, that's all. Two teams is a small sample size and I'm sure other teams have a greater number of players using FBV. It'd be nice to hear that from a specific team's trainer/Equipment Manager.

For me personally, I found 100/50 FBV has been inconsistent, the first couple times it was great and had just enough bite and superior glide. The next 2 times it felt like I had no bite at all and I kept falling. I think this was due to the sharpener though, as i go to Total Hockey and someone new does them every time. I just tried 100/75 and while it provided a good amount of bite, I didn't feel the glide benefit that I did with 100/50

Way too much emphasis on equipment managers. Just ask Ray Martinique, the only 1st round draft pick who never made it to the NHL because his equipment manager thought he new better about how Ray should have his skates sharpened than Ray wanted. I recently atteneded an outing where a x-NHL manager sharpened 50 pairs of skates for the event, and most skaters were falling and slipping from the poor job. Some managers are experienced and do a good job, others not so well, and others who are old school and not willing to change.

[mckjim 2]

Original Six???

Is that you Charlie?Chuck?

How is the weather back there in Woburn, Mass., is it "wicked awesome"?