Skate Technique Question

[guasto74 0]

Well, it's kind of a question. I'll just explain the problem and hopefully some will be able to chime in with some advice.

I've been playing a lot lately but have seemed to develop a problem that I've never had before. It's happening when I don't have much speed or am standing still and I either catch a pass or pick up a loose puck. If I have some room to carry the puck and am looking to pick up speed quickly, I seem to be stumbling forward for the first three or four steps. I usually can maintain control of the puck and get into a controlled skate but I know the first few steps are slowing me down.

Now, I'm playing with a lot of guys that are slower and don't have great puck control and passing ability so a lot of times I'm getting poor passes or have to slow down to not overskate them. I know this is contributing. I also am in new skates (appx. 2 months) and just switched to Superfeet a couple of weeks ago. Still in all, I know I'm stumbling out there due to some sloppy technique.

Last year I was going to a clinic that had some great power skating and I did a lot sprinting. Unfortunately, that clinic is gone and I don't get a chance to sprint except during games. I know this has contributed as well.

Thanks in advance.

[johnpace2 0]

It's possible that you are just not used to the pitch of the steel on your new skates. Depending on what you are used to, it sort of sounds like you need a bit of a forward pitch....

Even with a heel lift on my One95's, I would stumble a bit on those first few steps. I don't feel like adjusting to it so I had my steel rockered forward a bit.

[guasto74 0]

Well, I did just change from a 9 radius to a 7/10. But I have had a decent amount of skates with the 7/10 and feel like I'm used to it. Also, my blades are pitched medium forward. Do you think a more agressive forward pitch would help.

[Aussie Joe 0]

Pitch is a likey reason.

Also you maybe simply too eager to get off the mark and be forgetting technique. That is you might be directing your skate blade too straight and forward. Try snapping on your toes some more but, push to the side just slightly. This will mean a quicker start plus you will be using the blade on the balls of your feet more.

OR, you try skating like Pavel Bure and skate heel to toe. ;)

[Shark#81 0]

stumbling forward means that you are running out of blade support off the front. I had a few setups along the way that were doing the same thing, falling on my knees, kicking the ice with my toes. hockey equipment changes your center of mass (forward) to add to the mix, so you need to be in full gear during testing.

options are to:

decrease your pitch giving you more blade ahead of the contact center to work with.

increase your rocker giving you more blade and stability overall. decrease hollow at the same time.

increase the forward flex available in your boot - but it all depends on how heavy/big you are because this will lower the support.

skating "events" as I call them are "blown tires", edge catches, loss of balance etc. are all caused by less than perfect setups or setup issues. you see it in the pros all the time too. there are a few pros I see running less than their potential (IMO). not too many but a few I'd suggest changes for.

there are always trade-offs, and dialing in is a matter of understanding the technology and having the ice time to exploit it.

[johnpace2 0]

What skates were you in before and what skates are you in now?

[guasto74 0]

stumbling forward means that you are running out of blade support off the front. I had a few setups along the way that were doing the same thing, falling on my knees, kicking the ice with my toes. hockey equipment changes your center of mass (forward) to add to the mix, so you need to be in full gear during testing.

options are to:

decrease your pitch giving you more blade ahead of the contact center to work with.

increase your rocker giving you more blade and stability overall. decrease hollow at the same time.

increase the forward flex available in your boot - but it all depends on how heavy/big you are because this will lower the support.

skating "events" as I call them are "blown tires", edge catches, loss of balance etc. are all caused by less than perfect setups or setup issues. you see it in the pros all the time too. there are a few pros I see running less than their potential (IMO). not too many but a few I'd suggest changes for.

there are always trade-offs, and dialing in is a matter of understanding the technology and having the ice time to exploit it.

Interesting points. The equipment changes I made are as follows:

Went from Pro Tacks with a 9' rocker, medium forward pitch to CCM Vector '08's. I started out keeping a 9' rocker when I changed to the Vectors but started experimentng with combo radii. First tried the 7/12 but I cannot stand the feel of too much blade in the heel; it's part of the reason I used a 9 with the Pro Tacks. The 7/10 seems like it's a good balance for me as I lost some stability with the 9. That is to say, I feel very comfortable with 7/10. My hollow is 1/2; actually it's the FBV equivalent of 1/2 and the blades are still pitched medium forward. Also, I'm 6'2" and probably around 195 pounds. Let me also add that I've had some discomfort in the right skate, specifically around and underneath the big toe. Switched to Superfeet and this alleviated the problem a little bit but I do feel that the Superfeet may have raised my heel ever so slightly. Maybe that slight change is causing a problem?

I would say I'm a pretty strong skater and trying to get out of the gate too soon is somewhat accurate. I try and create as much space as possible once I have control of the puck so if I have room I'll try and sprint with my first few steps. The Pro Tacks and 9' rocker medium forward were great; it was some of the best hockey I've played but it was just time. Those things were beat up.

[ktang 34]

Maybe you need an 8/10 or 9/10, or the balance point in your 7/10 is too far back?

[guasto74 0]

Maybe you need an 8/10 or 9/10, or the balance point in your 7/10 is too far back?

If I'm stumbling forward though, wouldn't that mean that the balance point is too far forward?

[ktang 34]

Maybe you need an 8/10 or 9/10, or the balance point in your 7/10 is too far back?

If I'm stumbling forward though, wouldn't that mean that the balance point is too far forward?

In my mind's eye, you're stumbling forward because your natural starting style needs something to hold you up / keep you balanced. Also in my mind's eye, the break (balance point) between the 7' radius and the 10' radius is back far enough so that the 7' radius is curving up too much towards the front of your skates. So, as you do your starts, you are pushing on the fronts of your skates and because the blades are angled too much for your natural starting strides, you are propelling yourself too horizontally and then stumbling.

I think even if you had a pure 7' radius, the balance point might be too far forward.

I have these images in my mind's eye because I went through the same kind of stumbling problems on my starts when I was experimenting with different pitches and radii.

[guasto74 0]

Maybe you need an 8/10 or 9/10, or the balance point in your 7/10 is too far back?

If I'm stumbling forward though, wouldn't that mean that the balance point is too far forward?

In my mind's eye, you're stumbling forward because your natural starting style needs something to hold you up / keep you balanced. Also in my mind's eye, the break (balance point) between the 7' radius and the 10' radius is back far enough so that the 7' radius is curving up too much towards the front of your skates. So, as you do your starts, you are pushing on the fronts of your skates and because the blades are angled too much for your natural starting strides, you are propelling yourself too horizontally and then stumbling.

I think even if you had a pure 7' radius, the balance point might be too far forward.

I have these images in my mind's eye because I went through the same kind of stumbling problems on my starts when I was experimenting with different pitches and radii.

Actually that makes sense. When I'm pushing off, there's not enough blade in the front to push off from, therefore, instead of using my toes, I am probably more in the middle of the blade which is causing me to stumble.

[tomh7 2]

Go ahead and blast away for saying this but I don't think the micro adjustments of changing pitch and/or radius is going to do as much as improving your body mechanics. When I ref the lower level mens leagues, watching the guys skate makes me want to sing the Scooby-Doo theme song because they look like they are trying to run instead of skate. My advice, before you go changing your skates, is to go to a stick and puck session and work on your body mechanics. Check out Laura Stamm's books and videos as well as Robby Glantz's videos (very similar techniques) to get a good idea of some on and off ice drills to help. Heck if it works for the pros, why not the joes...

[guasto74 0]

Go ahead and blast away for saying this but I don't think the micro adjustments of changing pitch and/or radius is going to do as much as improving your body mechanics. When I ref the lower level mens leagues, watching the guys skate makes me want to sing the Scooby-Doo theme song because they look like they are trying to run instead of skate. My advice, before you go changing your skates, is to go to a stick and puck session and work on your body mechanics. Check out Laura Stamm's books and videos as well as Robby Glantz's videos (very similar techniques) to get a good idea of some on and off ice drills to help. Heck if it works for the pros, why not the joes...

In the end it always comes down to mechanics and no amount of equipment changes will counteract bad technique. However, while I certainly am no high level player, I have played on B and C league teams in the past. The only reason I'm playing lower level these days is because I just can't play at the time slots that the organized gamre are at. I play lousy pick-up hockey that's more conducive to my schedule. Getting older and having more responsibility sucks.

I have been attending weekly clinics for years that have power skating drills as part of the session. I have read and done the drills in Stamm's book which has greatly imrpoved my skating over the last few years. I know exactly what you mean by rec players trying to run instead of skate. I see it all the time too. I'll certainly acknowledge that my skating ability has waned over the last year due to less ice time and playing less competitive hockey, I also know that I am in relatively new skates and might have experimeted too much with pitch settings. They don't have that saying, "if ain't broke don't fix it" for nothing.

[tomh7 2]

That's fair enough. I just think too many people on here "blame the plane and not the pilot". I don't disagree that some refinements to the skates would be warrented. After all, when you are used to an old pair of skates and then get new ones, it's obvious that the blade profile will not be the same and there is an adjustment period. Heck, last night I wore my Vapor XXXX for the first time in 6 months and when I first steped on the ice I thought I was going to break my neck (I have been wearing my One95). But after a little bit, it felt like I was wearing an old pair of socks again.

[Shark#81 0]

Just a quick run over the posts and i had these comments:

balance point or pitch on a blade is determined by the sharpened or adjusted angle (in the holder), the heel/toe elevation of plastic holder, heel or toe lifts or wait there's one more - boot position <-> on the blade(nobody adjusts this but i can with my skates)

radius or rocker is your contact patch with the ice and the amount or platform or blade you have to work from. big guys, older guys, defensemen, players who want straight-up speed and to skate all day long will want to run longer radiuses. I like longer radiuses (6-1 180lbs).

if i pitch forward i can generate much more power from my heels, forwards need to do this driving to the net for example.

if i pitch more neutral or back, i can generate " " " from my toes and have equal amounts of blade support <->. so defense, or all-rounders with athletic ability might want to look at this.

and finally hollow - hollow is an energy burner. the longer the blade, the less hollow you can run as you are trying to get the perfect grip on the ice. bigger players generally need less hollow and i've said before, softer ice = less hollow.

I believe with the right pilot, skate optimization will make a good hockey player into a more consistently good or even great player.

I don't know too much about the blended radiuses but i will say that once you introduce a break or transition point in a blade curve, i think you are going to get an instability or changeover point that may (or may not) cause issues.

[SolarWind 23]

increase your rocker giving you more blade and stability overall. decrease hollow at the same time.

I'd actually disagree purely from the physics point of view (plus I tried that too :)) - if you increate the rocker there'd be more blade one ice, and so the pressure would actually be less meaning you'd need the hollow to be deeper just to keep the same bite

basically if you were 1/2" with 9' then you'd likely need to go to 9/16" with 10', and 3/8" with 11' - just a gross estimate but it gives an idea...

running on your toes technique that Stamm advocates is potentially affected by combos - shorter forward radius leaves less blade up front, but then again - it's not directly the toes area, so I might be wrong here...

[guasto74 0]

Well I'm changing from a 7/10 to a 9/10. This should be the closest resemblance of what was working for me before I had these problems. Maybe the combo with the 10 in back will give me a tad more stability than a straight 9 (though I doubt I'll notice it). If there are still problems, I will end this experimentation and go with a straight 9 and stick with it.

[Shark#81 0]

Here's what I found:

grip of blade = Sharpness of edge (hollow) * Length of the edge* pressure you put in it.

You the skater can put different amounts pressure on an edge - in a turn or a stop for example.

I found that when I went to a longer rocker the blade started to bounce and chirp when I stopped. The skate also felt way too locked in for proper feathering and just was a bear to skate with. ALL of that was corrected by dropping my hollow - from 1/2 to 7/8. Now that I have a full season on the blades I am at 3/4 since they have been sharpened 15 or 20 times, probably reducing the rocker somewhat.

I have blades at 9' and need 1/2 on those just to get enough grip.

I'd actually disagree purely from the physics point of view (plus I tried that too :)) - if you increate the rocker there'd be more blade one ice, and so the pressure would actually be less meaning you'd need the hollow to be deeper just to keep the same bite

basically if you were 1/2" with 9' then you'd likely need to go to 9/16" with 10', and 3/8" with 11' - just a gross estimate but it gives an idea...

running on your toes technique that Stamm advocates is potentially affected by combos - shorter forward radius leaves less blade up front, but then again - it's not directly the toes area, so I might be wrong here...

[SolarWind 23]

Here's what I found:

grip of blade = Sharpness of edge (hollow) * Length of the edge* pressure you put in it.

You the skater can put different amounts pressure on an edge - in a turn or a stop for example.

I found that when I went to a longer rocker the blade started to bounce and chirp when I stopped. The skate also felt way too locked in for proper feathering and just was a bear to skate with. ALL of that was corrected by dropping my hollow - from 1/2 to 7/8. Now that I have a full season on the blades I am at 3/4 since they have been sharpened 15 or 20 times, probably reducing the rocker somewhat.

I have blades at 9' and need 1/2 on those just to get enough grip.

I'd actually disagree purely from the physics point of view (plus I tried that too :)) - if you increate the rocker there'd be more blade one ice, and so the pressure would actually be less meaning you'd need the hollow to be deeper just to keep the same bite

basically if you were 1/2" with 9' then you'd likely need to go to 9/16" with 10', and 3/8" with 11' - just a gross estimate but it gives an idea...

running on your toes technique that Stamm advocates is potentially affected by combos - shorter forward radius leaves less blade up front, but then again - it's not directly the toes area, so I might be wrong here...

re-read this twice, but unfortunately didn't really understand where you were going with this...

sharpness has nothing to do with hollow - it can be deep but dull, at the same time it can be hollow & sharp

with that this formula "grip of blade = Sharpness of edge (hollow) * Length of the edge* pressure you put in it." doesn't make sense...

here's how I see it work:

pressure = force / area (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pressure)

since the skater is the same we assume that force & ability to use edge is the same

but as the radius increases so as the area of contact, which in turn reduced the pressure - less pressure - the less edges will dig resulting in less grip, meaning you need to go deeper.

I found that when I went to a longer rocker the blade started to bounce and chirp when I stopped

not surprising - see above - less pressure, more chatter

Now that I have a full season on the blades I am at 3/4 since they have been sharpened 15 or 20 times, probably reducing the rocker somewhat.

makes sense - that's exactly what I was saying - less rocker means more pressure means you can go shallower

[Shark#81 0]

completely backwards dude and opposite of findings. and it's a bit more complex than PSI - i think you need to look at friction formulas to explain it, if you really want to argue the point.

chatter and hopping is due to not enough slide in the blade as the blade pressured into the ice = too much grip or friction, so the blade jumps off the ice.

a perfect stop is smooth, linear application of force, controlled by the skater from 0-100%.

a short blade with less hollow will feel really loose.

a longer blade provides more grip on the ice, just like a wider tire grips the road.

BTW this is the reason for the LS2 "power" blade - just a longer radius.

Speed skate blades are 0 hollow and super long ( IIRC)

Goalie skates are traditional less hollow and very flat too,.

[Larry54 243]

completely backwards dude and opposite of findings. and it's a bit more complex than PSI - i think you need to look at friction formulas to explain it, if you really want to argue the point.

chatter and hopping is due to not enough slide in the blade as the blade pressured into the ice = too much grip or friction, so the blade jumps off the ice.

a perfect stop is smooth, linear application of force, controlled by the skater from 0-100%.

a short blade with less hollow will feel really loose.

a longer blade provides more grip on the ice, just like a wider tire grips the road.

BTW this is the reason for the LS2 "power" blade - just a longer radius.

Speed skate blades are 0 hollow and super long ( IIRC)

Goalie skates are traditional less hollow and very flat too,.

My own experience seems to support what SolarWind was saying. A couple of years ago, I was on t-blades and happened to buy a pair of runners that had way too much grip. I noticed that the front of the blade curved up sooner than my other runners of supposedly identical spec, leaving less blade on the ice. I e-mailed t-blade about this and Mathias Kunz answered that I had obtained some runners of the old original t-blade profile and that it had later been changed to match today's tuuk and pro-lite profiles. In the same e-mail he wrote this:

"A possible explanation for

the observed difference in grip between M-13 and L-13 could be as follows:

the contact surface of the L(ong) rocker is approx 15% longer than that of

the M(edium) rocker. Hence the body weight is distributed over 15% more edge

surface, and the weight per unit length is conversely reduced by 15%. This

(non-linearly) reduces the bite depth into the ice and the perceived

difference in grip."

That sort of confirms what SolarWind wrote and my own experience.

[SolarWind 23]

completely backwards dude and opposite of findings. and it's a bit more complex than PSI - i think you need to look at friction formulas to explain it, if you really want to argue the point.

well - I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, but you might want to read up on the subject since I'm cetain you're quite off on many points

you can also ask experts such as no-icing guys who sharpen 100s of skates a month (or even the post above this one has a reference)

chatter and hopping is due to not enough slide in the blade as the blade pressured into the ice = too much grip or friction, so the blade jumps off the ice.

and guess what - pressure solves all these problems!

this is exactly why beginners have issues stopping - they just don't apply enough pressure over edges causing chatter!

a short blade with less hollow will feel really loose.

a longer blade provides more grip on the ice, just like a wider tire grips the road.

you're missing the point - I'm not comparing apples to oranges like you are - "a short blade with less hollow will feel really loose. " - exact settings really depend on a skater - there people on this board skating on 8' with 1" hollow - it's good for them, but would be very loose for someone else.

al I was trying to say was this: if a skater A is comfortable at a certain radius & a certain depth then the SAME skater would need more depth to be just as comfortable on a longer radius.

Speed skate blades are 0 hollow and super long ( IIRC)

Goalie skates are traditional less hollow and very flat too,.

again - what does it have to do with anything? speed skates provide 0 agility - they are meant for forward glide ONLY, no sharp cuts, tight turns, rapid crossovers or hard stops - of course they have long blades & 1+" hollow - so what?

same applies to goalie skates, but it's actually changing - more & more goalies are usuing deep cut now days since they don't just slide across the goal anymore

[Shark#81 0]

like i said look at the friction equations.

a blade with a 3/8" hollow has a higher coeff of friction than one with 7/8" hollow. that applies to axial (inline) and shear (sideways) travel.

if you increase the amount of blade on the ice the friction of the blade with the 3/8" hollow will be greater

if you increase your rocker radius and keep your hollow the same, you will increase your blade friction or grip.

Yes there is less PSI applied to the blade, but the coefficient of friction factor is greater. a skater can also generate much more than their body weight on a edge. the key is what happens to the grip of skate when that pressure is applied.

Pitch also affects the grip of the skate.

Further notes:

No way you can eyeball your contact zone on a t-blade or any other blade. You would need to trace the blade and transfer that to CAD, then dimension the radius( that's what I do) It's got nothing to do with the curve at the blade ends - just through the middle section.

I didn't like the t's - real pain to tweak.

I could adjust a beginners skate to be chatterless in a stop not a problem, you adjust the skate to the skater, not the other way round.

[SolarWind 23]

like i said look at the friction equations.

a blade with a 3/8" hollow has a higher coeff of friction than one with 7/8" hollow. that applies to axial (inline) and shear (sideways) travel.

if you increase the amount of blade on the ice the friction of the blade with the 3/8" hollow will be greater

if you increase your rocker radius and keep your hollow the same, you will increase your blade friction or grip.

Yes there is less PSI applied to the blade, but the coefficient of friction factor is greater. a skater can also generate much more than their body weight on a edge. the key is what happens to the grip of skate when that pressure is applied.

well - like I said - we'll have to agree to disagree

as my final note in my opinion for anything other then stopping (anything other then lateral slides) friction is irrelevant since the grip isn't provided through friction, but rather through edges cutting into the ice which purely depends on the bite angle (deeper the hollow steeper the angle & so more bite) and pressure applied (smaller radius means less area of contact resulting in more pressure) - when going forward/backwards edges don't scratch the ice, they dig into it.

the analogy I'd use (how I visualise it myself) is a nail - it holds when it's hammered in, not when it scratches the surface.

[Shark#81 0]

i give up. warning to 110%