World Series of Poker

[kosydar 0]

So who watched it? Between the World Cup and this, pretty damn good TV night. I'm real happy that Fossilman won. He seemed like a real down to earth, genuinely nice guy, the complete opposite of most professional poker players. I wanted him to win ever since Matisau was a complete dick to him. To see Matisau crying and Fossilman win was the ultimate form of poetic justice. I thought this year's WSOP was great, but then again, I'm caught up in the whole poker phase.

[Chadd 916]

You watch other people play cards?

[kosydar 0]

Last year's WSOP got higher ratings than the Stanley Cup finals.

[LegoDoom 0]

I watch a lot of other people play poker. It's not like it is on TV. In a poker room, there's a lot more folding than not. So you sit around and watch others play.

I wanted Josh Ariehl to win. Or Luske. I thought they played some of the best poker in the tournament. It was fun to watch Doyle Brunson toy with everybody when he was getting cards. Just to show you that anyone can win the WSOP, Moneymaker showed just how bad he is. I can't believe how he played the hand he was knocked out on. Same with Robert Varkonyi from 2002. Neither are very good players. But in a field of 2500, anybody can win.

I hear a lot of pros might not play next year. I understand why, but there is so much money in that room that I doubt a lot won't be there. This stuff you're seeing now is a very different breed of poker. I can understand people betting on draws to at least act strong, but internet players seem to call with just draws a ton more than any pro would.

[kosydar 0]

Speaking of Luske, anyone else think he looks a hell of a lot like Sundin? I've only been a poker fan for about two years now, so the internet boom has been around longer than I have, but theres nothing like watching the pros play. I've been watching the World Poker Tour on FSN. Its pretty good, the 8 best pros in the world. I'm really looking forward to the ESPN Tournament of Champions, that should be good.

[LegoDoom 0]

FSN? It's on the Travel Channel out here. The bad boys of poker was pretty fun to watch. When Antonio Esfandiari said "I don't get it" when Gus Hansen called his all-in with just a T8s was classic.

If you don't like poker, you can at least tune in for Shana Hiatt.

[Vapor 0]

Lemme get this right... he called me with a Jack 5?! Yo yo, this f*ka called me wit a jack 5... Neways, you can call them "pros" but I believe just about everybody is equal at the begining of the tournerment, if the pro is getting a lot of low off suit cards, and the amature is getting trips and boats and such the whole game, who si going to win? Its all in the cards. You cant win as a total amatuer, you need to know how to play the cards, but its not like the scientific way always wins. We have had hold em tourerments in my basement for like 3 or 4 years, and you will always find a newbie winning, who has no idea what there doing, where we are teaching them what to do while we are playing. So its just in the cards.

[kosydar 0]

My bad Lego, its Poker Superstars Invitational. Good cards dont' always win a hand, good poker playing does. Look at last night when Harrington had a 6 2 offsuit and bluffed over Arieh and Fossilman who each had Ace nine and Ace Jack. He won close to a $1/2 million on that bluff alone.

[mack 44]

Poker's just like golf, basketball and soccer to me: fun to play but horrible to watch. "Rounders" was enough poker on TV to last me a lifetime.

[LegoDoom 0]

Lemme get this right... he called me with a Jack 5?! Yo yo, this f*ka called me wit a jack 5... Neways, you can call them "pros" but I believe just about everybody is equal at the begining of the tournerment, if the pro is getting a lot of low off suit cards, and the amature is getting trips and boats and such the whole game, who si going to win? Its all in the cards. You cant win as a total amatuer, you need to know how to play the cards, but its not like the scientific way always wins. We have had hold em tourerments in my basement for like 3 or 4 years, and you will always find a newbie winning, who has no idea what there doing, where we are teaching them what to do while we are playing. So its just in the cards.

There's a big reason why pros have trouble playing with amateurs.... because they could really have any two cards. Pros don't make as loose calls as amateurs do. You always want to be the aggressor. Amateurs will call bets when they don't have pot odds. If you look at the final table last year it was two amateurs and the rest pros. You think it was an accident that Dan Harrington was at the final table two straight years?

When Arieh went all-in with a flush draw, that's not a bad play. The guy called him with top pair with jack kicker. Yeah, it was top pair, but when the flop comes out A K Q, with two hearts and someone goes all-in, you have to start to wonder about your hand. He obviously had the best hand with the A, but to risk all your chips with just top pair is hard to do. In that scenario, the first person to make a big bet is the proper play. The person to call is making a very borderline poor play. It doesn't matter who's leading at that point, because you're either calling with a weak hand or a draw. A pro makes that bet, an amateur makes the call. It's almost never the other way around and there is a big difference.

And tournaments are different. Any amateur would get eaten alive in a high stakes cash game with a pro. In tournaments, when you get short stacked, it's easy to put your money in and try to double up. That's what you have to do in order to stay in the tournament. In a cash game, people have problems calling all of their money with a mediocre hand.

It's not about the cards.

[MNGopherFan09 0]

Yeah, I'm on a poker kick too. I was really hoping that John Murhpy would win it. (The guy who slept in one day). They had to check his ID when he came to Vegas. I either wanted him to win or David Williams. He lost to Raymer. Raymer just got so damn lucky on some hands it was just ridiculous.

[LegoDoom 0]

Eh, David Williams didn't do a whole lot for me. He seemed to play a little scared and for 2nd place. Not that playing for 2nd place is bad, especially when you win something like $3M.

I didn't see Murph get knocked out. I liked the way he played though. Kind of a controlled Gus Hansen type of style.

[PiKappaPhi 0]

of all the new players comin around, I think Williams looked to be the most solid. The new internet kids really play poorly, betting huge on draws and don't think much about the psychology of the game. Williams I think played solid. Not loose, not tight, but changed gears when he needed to.

[LegoDoom 0]

I never saw Williams really make a move. I'll give him credit for feeling what other players had, but he only played top hands. You have to play marginal hands if you want to be a consistent finisher in a tournament. He's a fairly tight player, but got good cards often enough that the blinds and ante's didn't eat at his stack.

[foppa21 0]

"Action" Dan has made a living off of just playing the top hands. Mind you, every once and a while he makes a stone cold bluff to take the pot just by his reputation, but he does pretty good by only playing the nuts.

[LegoDoom 0]

While he plays tight, he makes his moves because he's well known for being a tight player. Williams isn't well known for being tight, so he can't make the same moves as Dan does. And to be honest, the people left at the final table wouldn't know any better.

Like I said, that is not the way a usual tournament is played. Internet poker players just throw their money in before the flop with low pockets or two over-pair. Most pros would only do that when one player is short stacked. Internet players bet or call all their money on a 50-50 chance of winning the hand. Most pros won't do that.

IMO, this years final table wasn't very good poker. It was all preflop action because everyone is ultra aggressive. And Williams shouldn't have just called all the way down on the last hand. If you think you have the best hand, make a move on the pot. Raise over top of the guy. Make him think you have the best hand. Do something besides just being a calling station and watch all your money get sucked away from you.

[foppa21 0]

I've got no arguments about Williams, his play was a little suspect. Even if he had played the final hand differently though, it wouldn't have changed the outcome. He would have been betting into a set after the flop with nothing on the board that could have worried Raymer, and Raymer made the nut full house on the turn.

*Edit- Whoa was ever wrong. I'm watching a rerun of the final table right now and Raymer didn't catch a set on the flop. Yikes, that's what I get for spouting off.

[kosydar 0]

Anyone catch the Tournament of Champions? I had a much better time watching that than the WSOP Final. I'm still surprised at how often Annie seemed to get lucky, but she played well.

[LegoDoom 0]

Ivey played like crap. I would've liked to see him play better. Raymer didn't play that well either. I don't care if he has implied odds or not, you don't put your whole stack in the middle with 89 or T9 preflop.

I did like how everyone picked on Helmuth though. And I wish Gus Hansen could've been at that table. It's fun to see him play against the better players.

[bluescityref 0]

If you don't like poker, you can at least tune in for Shana Hiatt.

My company hosts one of the events on the WPT. Other than the tournament ending (after a month it's about all you can stand) I always look forward to when Shana gets to town.