Phaneuf on Okposo

[DarkStar50 679]

They are professionals. They know the risk when they sign on the line. Part of the big contract is big risk. The players not willing to take the risk were eliminated from the pyramid a long time ago. The ones at the top of the pyramid take reward over risk.

[Law Goalie 147]

I completely agree with DS that avoidance is far more problematic in hockey. Relative velocity is way too high. The metaphorical trolley-tracks work both ways: one guy is caught on them, one guy is locked in on the rails.

On the other hand, there has got to be a way to separate the man from the puck AND punish him physically - which creates legitimate intimidation - without permanently injuring the guy (which is bad business all around). That's what we used to call, "knocking the wind out of him," a brutally hard to the front or side of the abdomen that puts the guy out of commission for a shift or two, and makes him gun-shy the rest of the game.

I'll also go out on a limb and say that there are times when making a bad hockey play (tactically speaking) at the right time, on the right player, can change the course of a game or a series - WITHOUT injuring said player. I'm not talking about Bobby Clarke on Kharlamov here, or the head-shot equivalent.

Part of the problem seems to be that, at least to my knowledge, the NHL has never commissioned a comprehensive concussion study - likely because of how it would effect their insurance if they admitted to knowing the frequency, severity, causes, and consequences. But with that kind of study in hand, you could make much more specific recommendations about how to limit physical contact.

[chippa13 1844]

They are professionals. They know the risk when they sign on the line. Part of the big contract is big risk. The players not willing to take the risk were eliminated from the pyramid a long time ago. The ones at the top of the pyramid take reward over risk.

The risks should be a separated shoulder or bruised ribs, not waking up one day and wondering what happened yesterday. These posts of your's are starting sound a bit more like jealousy to me.

[fieldofdreams 0]

They are professionals. They know the risk when they sign on the line. Part of the big contract is big risk. The players not willing to take the risk were eliminated from the pyramid a long time ago. The ones at the top of the pyramid take reward over risk.

The risks should be a separated shoulder or bruised ribs, not waking up one day and wondering what happened yesterday. These posts of your's are starting sound a bit more like jealousy to me.

We're ALL jealous of NHL'ers, to an extent. The only thing that seperates that hit resulting in a seperated should vs. that hit resulting in scrambled egg brains is Okposo looking down. If he braces himself, or is able to attempt to avoid the hit, we wouldn't be talking about this.

Just like Cambell vs. Umberger a few years ago. Umberger wasn't aware of who was lining him up because he was focused on the puck.

[chippa13 1844]

Which is hard for Okposo to do because he is already engaged with Flames players. In that situation you don't expect a third Flames player to take himself out of position in order to knock you into next week.

[Chadd 916]

Just like Cambell vs. Umberger a few years ago. Umberger wasn't aware of who was lining him up because he was focused on the puck.

That was a good old-fashioned hockey hit. Unlike the guys leaping into someone from the side or behind with a flying elbow. That stuff is a recent addition to the game.

[fieldofdreams 0]

Which is hard for Okposo to do because he is already engaged with Flames players. In that situation you don't expect a third Flames player to take himself out of position in order to knock you into next week.

Normally, no. I agree. But when you are on the ice with a hitter of Phaneuf's ilk, you pay extra special attention. Just as you would with a Beukeboom, an Ulfie Sammuelsson, or a Scotty Stevens. You KNOW those guys are looking for any and all opportunities to line you up and send you into the third row of seats. You know why those guys would go across the ice to line someone up? Because the puckcarriers wouldn't come down THEIR side of the ice, because they know what they are in for.

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. I love seeing hard clean hits, and I agree that players who target the head should be punished, and severly. I don't feel, however, that unfortunate contact to the head because of the puckcarriers who lean or stumble or look down (I.E. th Weight vs. Brandon Sutter or Okposo)should be punished as strongly as those who intend to make head contact.

[DarkStar50 679]

They are professionals. They know the risk when they sign on the line. Part of the big contract is big risk. The players not willing to take the risk were eliminated from the pyramid a long time ago. The ones at the top of the pyramid take reward over risk.

The risks should be a separated shoulder or bruised ribs, not waking up one day and wondering what happened yesterday. These posts of your's are starting sound a bit more like jealousy to me.

Jealous of what? Not being an NHLer? My point is simple, no matter how many times I say it: They are professionals. They get paid to play. There is risk involved. The rules are in place to give order to the game. However, the rules get broken thousands of times over the course of the game. Sometimes the result of that is a lot greater than at other times. I know it sucks, I know it's not "right", but these guys know it too. This isn't Friday night hockey. There are going to be some major train wrecks on the ice. The results are getting more catastrophic with every hit. Given the NHL's track record in discipline and framing the rules, I just don't see anything coming from the NHL to change the nature of the game. Waiting for the NHL to do something is foolish, in my opinion. Simply, what are they waiting for that they have not already seen? The hitting in the NHL is part of the game inside the game. Some guys just don't like what they see. I understand that. I just don't think it will change any time soon. I'm not jealous of anything with what they do!!

[Chadd 916]

Given the NHL's track record in discipline and framing the rules, I just don't see anything coming from the NHL to change the nature of the game. Waiting for the NHL to do something is foolish, in my opinion. Simply, what are they waiting for that they have not already seen? The hitting in the NHL is part of the game inside the game. Some guys just don't like what they see. I understand that. I just don't think it will change any time soon.

The game is changing, if for no other reason than the NHLs refusal to address the issues confronting it. You didn't see these hits ten years ago.

[DarkStar50 679]

Players are bigger, stronger, faster, and certainly have less respect for the guy on the other team than they did as little as 5 years ago.

[chippa13 1844]

They are professionals. They know the risk when they sign on the line. Part of the big contract is big risk. The players not willing to take the risk were eliminated from the pyramid a long time ago. The ones at the top of the pyramid take reward over risk.

The risks should be a separated shoulder or bruised ribs, not waking up one day and wondering what happened yesterday. These posts of your's are starting sound a bit more like jealousy to me.

Jealous of what? Not being an NHLer? My point is simple, no matter how many times I say it: They are professionals. They get paid to play. There is risk involved. The rules are in place to give order to the game. However, the rules get broken thousands of times over the course of the game. Sometimes the result of that is a lot greater than at other times. I know it sucks, I know it's not "right", but these guys know it too. This isn't Friday night hockey. There are going to be some major train wrecks on the ice. The results are getting more catastrophic with every hit. Given the NHL's track record in discipline and framing the rules, I just don't see anything coming from the NHL to change the nature of the game. Waiting for the NHL to do something is foolish, in my opinion. Simply, what are they waiting for that they have not already seen? The hitting in the NHL is part of the game inside the game. Some guys just don't like what they see. I understand that. I just don't think it will change any time soon. I'm not jealous of anything with what they do!!

So now you're argument has gone from, "They get paid a lot of money, they can suck it up" to "The league sucks at making rules to protect players so why even talk about it". Guess what, folks thought the same of the NFL and they've done it. The NHL players are already changing the nature of the game, and not for the better, by going for these killer hits in the first place, hits that have arisen because, as I stated earlier in this thread, the players making them don't fear any repurcussions. Gone are the days when Phaneuf makes that hit and answers when [insert tough guy here] says, "not on my watch".

[DarkStar50 679]

Thanks for twisting my words. The NFL and the NHL are not even on the same planet when it comes to corporate management by the individual league. The NFL(Goodell, et al) knows how to protect its investment, the franchises and the players. The NHL(Bettman, BOG)cannot protect either, their franchises or their players.

My "argument"(What a confrontational word. I'm just expressing my opinion, not standing in a court room before a judge.) hasn't moved from one place to another. I am stating things as I see them, as are you. The hitting game has changed as players got bigger, stronger, faster. I agree with you on that. The NHL looked the other way as it happened and here we are today. What's your solution?

[chippa13 1844]

I have already offered up solution number 1 in making it a penalty to hit someone already engaged with a teammate, similar to the NFL's rule that you can't decapitate a player already wrapped up. Solution 2, make shots to the head illegal. If college hockey can do it, why can't the NHL?

[DarkStar50 679]

They like to use the term culture. I am all for them changing the rule to protect the player. The OHL(a notoriously nasty league. I have witnessed some great brawls at OHL games.) has the no head shot rule in place. As long as you have Brian Burke in place at the NHL, don't expect a change, though.

[chippa13 1844]

"Enough with the negative waves, baby........" Burke will be on board, remember his comments after Naslund was knocked silly.

[Chadd 916]

They like to use the term culture. I am all for them changing the rule to protect the player. The OHL(a notoriously nasty league. I have witnessed some great brawls at OHL games.) has the no head shot rule in place. As long as you have Brian Burke in place at the NHL, don't expect a change, though.

It's amazing how much power he still has in the league, you would think he still had Colin Campbell's position in addition to his own.

"Enough with the negative waves, baby........" Burke will be on board, remember his comments after Naslund was knocked silly.

And how did he feel when Pronger was suspended for head shots?

[DarkStar50 679]

As Burke continues to beef up the Leafs!

[RadioGaGa 162]

Yes, he did leave the bench:

http://tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=292057

[Hockeyman9621 0]

Which is hard for Okposo to do because he is already engaged with Flames players. In that situation you don't expect a third Flames player to take himself out of position in order to knock you into next week.

This is true, but part of hockey is awareness, he should have been aware that he was attempting to go one on three, with Phaneuf being one of the three. If he just gets the line and flips it, none of this happens. He tried to take off and if it wasn't for the push by the backchecker Phaneuf might not have got all of him, by the time he was pushed it was too late for Dion to let up.. not saying he would have necessarily lol.

[chippa13 1844]

Actually, he was trying to go one on two. Phaneuf took advantage of a player whose attention was elsewhere trying to outskate the Flame chasing him and keep the puck from the Flame in front of him.

[mrusse01 0]

Given the NHL's track record in discipline and framing the rules, I just don't see anything coming from the NHL to change the nature of the game. Waiting for the NHL to do something is foolish, in my opinion. Simply, what are they waiting for that they have not already seen? The hitting in the NHL is part of the game inside the game. Some guys just don't like what they see. I understand that. I just don't think it will change any time soon.

The game is changing, if for no other reason than the NHLs refusal to address the issues confronting it. You didn't see these hits ten years ago.

That's an outrageous comment. Scott Stevens made a career out of hits that were dirtier than what Phaneuf pulled here.

Admittedly I don't watch OHL hockey, but I'd be interested in how they interpret their head shot rule. I would think it's more of deliberate shoulder/elbows to an exposed players head...similar to Chris Neil on I believe it was Drury a few years ago. Plays like this one, open ice collisons between two players skating the opposite direction, I mean, how do you ask the referee to call a head shot on that? If you keep your feet on the ice, elbows in, it's a clean check in my opinion. It's almost impossible not to contact a guy's head on a big open ice hit, especially if he is hunched over at all (which is the skating position for the majority of NHL players), or has his head down (which is the only way you're going to hit someone with a big hit like that).

Even the famous Campbell/Umberger hit, Campbell whacks him right in the chin with his shoulder. Is that a penalty in the OHL?

[psh 25]

Which is hard for Okposo to do because he is already engaged with Flames players. In that situation you don't expect a third Flames player to take himself out of position in order to knock you into next week.

This is true, but part of hockey is awareness, he should have been aware that he was attempting to go one on three, with Phaneuf being one of the three. If he just gets the line and flips it, none of this happens. He tried to take off and if it wasn't for the push by the backchecker Phaneuf might not have got all of him, by the time he was pushed it was too late for Dion to let up.. not saying he would have necessarily lol.

This is getting way beside the point, but any rule or lack of a rule that encourages players to dump and chase or voluntarily surrender the possession of the puck ought to be seriously looked at. They generally make hockey a less skill oriented sport.

[chippa13 1844]

Whatever happened to the hip check? That used to be the preferred hit open ice hit and it didn't destroy guys. Oh, it didn't knock the guy onto queer street, that's what happened.

[RiSeOnFiRe 0]

Okposo didn't take any risk except for stepping on the ice. Although I agree it was a good hit and not too intense, you're way off base on Okposo. He didn't put his head down, or look down at the puck; he was pushed from behind by a backchecker.

Again, I disagree. When he was pushed from behind, he started to lose the puck, then reached out to try and corral it. Mistake. Had he left the puck and kept his head up, he could have tried to avoid the hit, or maybe at least put himself in a better position.

You cant be serious..

Quite serious, actually. What do you feel I am wrong about. Go back and re-watch the clip, in slomo if possible. That's exactly what happens. There has been plenty of times that has happened to me personally, and I choose to let the puck go rather than have my lunch handed to me. Just my personal choice.

So, to be clear, you would rather the skilled players of the NHL to give up on the puck once it is beyond their reach or in their feet for fear of being blindsided by someone who has nothing to do with the play, than for them to try to continue playing the puck? That sounds like an incomplete pass in football or something. Certainly not hockey.

And to add to Chippa's point, the art of hip checking has gone out the window because these players no longer need to pay the price for laying these massive hits. Had Dion done the exact same thing, but led with his hip and not his shoulder, he would have accomplished what? Oh yea, the exact same thing minus the player leaving on a FUCKING STRETCHER.

[Chadd 916]

That's an outrageous comment. Scott Stevens made a career out of hits that were dirtier than what Phaneuf pulled here.

Even the famous Campbell/Umberger hit, Campbell whacks him right in the chin with his shoulder. Is that a penalty in the OHL?

I have stated a number of times that I think Scott Stevens was a dirty headhunter that should have been suspended a number of times for his hits. Agree with me or not, I have been consistent in my comments.

The Campbell hit was as clean as you can get. He had everything tucked, didn't jump into Umberger and didn't go out of the way to hit RJs head. In fact most of the contact is body to body on that one. To me, that's a textbook example of a big, clean, hit.

Phaneuf, and others, that come halfway across the ice, lead with an elbow and leap off their feet when they hit someone are the ones that should be punished most severely.

And to add to Chippa's point, the art of hip checking has gone out the window because these players no longer need to pay the price for laying these massive hits. Had Dion done the exact same thing, but led with his hip and not his shoulder, he would have accomplished what? Oh yea, the exact same thing minus the player leaving on a FUCKING STRETCHER.

The biggest hits are now being thrown by someone that is coming from the blind side, not the guy directly in front of the puck carrier.