Question About Skate Fit - Depth Issues With Graf 735

[irishlaxburger2 0]

Despite being 22, I just started playing ice hockey about two years ago. First four months or so I was using my buddy's old Mission skates. Despite the fact that they hurt like a b*tch and didn't fit my feet at all, I learned to skate and play hockey in them. Soon thereafter, I decided to stop being cheap and buy my own properly fitting skates that I could wear for drop-ins and hopefully one day play beer league (serious dream right there...haha). :: Enter bender jokes here ::

Anyway, my foot is pretty hard to fit. I have a wide forefoot (toe width is average, but I have protusions on the outside of my forefeet), really skinny heels, and skinny ankles. Also have a pretty high arch. So I went to a "reputable" LHS and they fit me in some Graf 735's. After baking and punching out some areas (forefoot protrusions and prominent ankle bones), they seemed to fit very well. Unfortunately, I didn't know anything about the pencil test at the time and the LHS didn't take it into account. Due to my high arches, I have a tough time lacing these skates, yet alone playing in them without lots of pain. I've dealt with that pain for over a year now, but it's starting to get unbearable. I'm getting lots of lace bite on the tops of my feet and the beginning of my ankles because the skates don't have enough depth for my high arches. I've tried different laces, different footbeds, different lacing styles, etc. Always getting the same type of pain. And now that I'm playing more and more often, the pain never seems to go away. The dress shoes I wear to work seem to hurt my feet now. Is there anything else I can do to make these 735's work or are they a lost cause?

Also, I tried on a pair of Flexlite 4.0's recently and they seemed to fit much better, but still not good enough. The pencil test was very, very close but if I put in any footbeds for my high arches, chances are I would fail the test. Also, they seemed very comfortable when I tried them on - almost too comfortable - which made me wonder if they didn't fit at all. My heel was also a bit loose in them. Overall, they were more comfortable than my 735's but I'm not sure they would be the right fit either. Also, the LHS's around me either don't have good selection, don't have good service, or both, so it's tough to get properly fitted in skates.

Any suggestions? Can I make the 735's work? Would Flexlites somehow work? 709's? Do I need customs? Thanks in advance!

[epstud74 24]

Who fitted you? It is amazing at the number of pro shops that offer a poor fitting. It reflects poorly on the industry as a whole and unfair to the people who actually take the time to learn from past mistakes and educate themselves on what skates are best for different types of feet. (it is their livelihood after all) I have a similar foot like you and the 735 is NOT going to fit anyone with a high arch, neither will the Flexlites. The volume in the Flexlite skate is overrated and is still an "L" shaped skate much like the Vapor and Supreme lines. If you need a skate for a high arch, I'd recommend looking into the CCM U+ type skates or the Graf 709/G70 Ultra. (Depending on your heel width)

Plus, the top end Graf skates come with a heat moldable insole that is perfect for guys like us who need the arch support. If you're failing the pencil test and need to crank down on the laces to get your feet in the skate, your arches and toes are going to be killing you by the end of the 1st period. You need the orthotic support and depth. Your LHS put you in the wrong Graf skate and that is an issue you should take up with them.

[irishlaxburger2 0]

Thanks for the quick reply! Granted, I'm not going back to this LHS ever again for skates, but I'm not huge on bad-mouthing anyone, and I've already used the skates for over a year now so I see no use in posting the name of the shop in question or asking them for any sort of compensation. I didn't know much about skate fitting at the time of the purchase (hadn't found this site yet) and I got a crappy fitting. Sh*t happens I guess. Oh well... Had I known about this board before being in the market for skates, I would have stayed away from this particular LHS given some of the negative reviews on here. I'll leave it at that.

After doing some searches on here, the U+ Reloadeds definitely intrigue me, as does getting fit in the CCM FIT System. That said, I only play two (max three) times per week and I only weigh a little over 150lbs so they may be too much skate for me. How is the heel on them? If it's a little bit narrower than the heel on Flexlites, I may be in good shape. The 709's also sound like they could be a good fit, but I'm a bit disillusioned to Grafs at this point, fair or not. If they fit though, I'll take them.

At the end of the day, I know I just need to try different skates on and see what fits best. Anyone know of any good LHS in Westchester, NY or the surrounding area? Hopefully one that has both the 709s and the U+. A FIT machine would be a plus. Also, any shop around here that fits for custom Graf footbeds? Thanks again!

[epstud74 24]

Grafs are a great skate. The 709 I think has a wider heel than the Ultra G70s (which come with the heat moldable foot-bed) If you get one of those foot beds, you will never go back to anything else. The CCM skates are nice and have good heel to instep depth. They're ridiculously deep. They're wide in the heel but will mold to your foot after the FIT system fitting. For me, it was down to the Graf Ultra G70s and the CCM U+ reloads, but the foot bed sold me on the Grafs. You are disillusioned about Graf because you were fitted into a model of skate that was wrong for your foot. There are a ton of guys on here from NY that could help you. Try DarkStar50..He's a Bauer whore though haha but he's on this board a lot.

[OldNSlow 3]

Great responses epstud74.

I couldn't describe my feet better than how irishlax described his feet. Looks like we both have very odd shapes and difficulty finding properly fitted skates. I still haven't found a skate that feels right, although admittedly I haven't tried too many skates.

I'm curious about the Graf G70. I am currently in 705s and also disillusioned with Graf skates, as you say. One thing I'm curious about is the 'traditional' shaped boot as opposed to the "L" shape. What are the advantages/disadvantages? I asked this on another thread when seeking advice on skates, and nobody was able to give me an answer.

[epstud74 24]

The "L" shape is the traditional shape in my experience. Go to a skate shop and check the distance between the heel and the last 3 eyelets at the top of the skate.

You'll see that the Graf G70s and CCM U+ plus have more instep depth.

[epstud74 24]

In my experience any Graf 705, 703, 735, G3, G35 etc will not have the depth required fit my foot. The 709, G70 Ultra does fit well and the latter comes w/those really nice custom insoles.

Skates that fit my feet

Graf Ultra G70

CCM U+

Even the Flexlites do not have the instep depth required for my feet, but they're more for a medium/low arch with wide feet. I'd say the same about Easton as well. Easton skates=Wide but shallow

[OldNSlow 3]

I was told by a guy at my LHS that the "L" shaped boots are better because the reduce the stretching on the sides of the boot (around the second or third eyelet). He said that many of the older skates (like Bauer 3000, Microns, etc.) would develop creases in this area, and the newer "L" shaped boots prevented this. Also, he said that the "L" shaped boots actually helped you skate better because the tongues and design "sprung" you back and forth, thus providing better support.

I know Graf uses a more "C" shaped boot cut. Does it make any difference?

[epstud74 24]

Where was this hockey shop at? My Graf Ultra G70s have a lot of instep depth and still gives me that forward lean. I'm not sure if that guy was just talking out of his ass, cuz whats the point if the skate does not fit you? I dont think he makes any sense, but maybe JR can make some sense out of this.

[Jarick 5]

What's the difference between the L shape and Grafs for skating and stride? Does that reduce the need to skip eyelets?

[zebra_steve 11]

I was told by a guy at my LHS that the "L" shaped boots are better because the reduce the stretching on the sides of the boot (around the second or third eyelet). He said that many of the older skates (like Bauer 3000, Microns, etc.) would develop creases in this area, and the newer "L" shaped boots prevented this. ......

The crease - or hinge as many called it - allowed for a natural ankle movement - you need this freedom to control your edges. When I coached I would really mess with the kids when we worked powerskating drills (especially those that thought they needed to wrap their laces around their ankles or tape their ankles "for support". I would untie my skates and loosen one eylet at a time until I was demonstrating the drills without laces in my skates and my tongues pulled forward... Way back when, a boot was considered worn out or broken down when this area and the ankle\heel area had gotten soft and lost it's support. The manufacturers have tried to overcome this by using plastic micro shells instead of layers of leather and padding to provide stiffness. I think one of the first skates to feature this was the Bauer Composites. Then the manufacturers went nuts with the plasics trying to go lighter and stiffer and made them - IMHO - basically ski boots. GRAF is the only company making a "skaters boot" anymore. Think about it... how many skaters don't use one or two eyelets to get more foot\ankle mobility.... you never used to have to do that unless the boot was simply too high for your taste. And if you're not 40something then it would never occur to you 'cuz the new style is all you've ever really known.

....... Also, he said that the "L" shaped boots actually helped you skate better because the tongues and design "sprung" you back and forth, thus providing better support.

I strongly disagree with this thought....if it's springing you back and forth you are wasting energy "loading those springs".... If it were that great, why do speed skaters wear what looks like a running shoe with a blade on it? Sorry, I grew up in the day when skates had NO SUPPORT and you learned to control your edges. I ordered my boots in a L2 stiffness beginning in the mid 80's because I was killing a pair of skates a season. They had the support needed to last two seasons, but once broken in, they had the hinge in the ankle area that allowed you to precisely control the placement of weight on your edges.

Jarick

The Grafs "could" allow you to not skip eyelets..... the ones that I have tried on and skated with have had a lower boot height ~one eyelet lower. The boot also allows you to lean\flex forward and fully "point your toe" at the end of your stride where the plastic fantastic boots won't. The Cobra mounts are supposed to lean you forward too.... anyone noticing a trend here? My 707 Graf's are pretty beat, but I'm considering taking them to the guy that did all of Paul Coffey's skate stitching when he was here in Pittsbugh. Maybe get them rebuilt if he still does that kind of work....

All of this still doesn't help you if the boots don't fit yer feet!

[kklinder 0]

Thanks for the quick reply! Granted, I'm not going back to this LHS ever again for skates, but I'm not huge on bad-mouthing anyone, and I've already used the skates for over a year now so I see no use in posting the name of the shop in question or asking them for any sort of compensation. I didn't know much about skate fitting at the time of the purchase (hadn't found this site yet) and I got a crappy fitting. Sh*t happens I guess. Oh well... Had I known about this board before being in the market for skates, I would have stayed away from this particular LHS given some of the negative reviews on here. I'll leave it at that.

After doing some searches on here, the U+ Reloadeds definitely intrigue me, as does getting fit in the CCM FIT System. That said, I only play two (max three) times per week and I only weigh a little over 150lbs so they may be too much skate for me. How is the heel on them? If it's a little bit narrower than the heel on Flexlites, I may be in good shape. The 709's also sound like they could be a good fit, but I'm a bit disillusioned to Grafs at this point, fair or not. If they fit though, I'll take them.

At the end of the day, I know I just need to try different skates on and see what fits best. Anyone know of any good LHS in Westchester, NY or the surrounding area? Hopefully one that has both the 709s and the U+. A FIT machine would be a plus. Also, any shop around here that fits for custom Graf footbeds? Thanks again!

In terms of a good LHS, go to Westside Skate and Stick in Manhattan (b/t 22nd and 23rd on 5th Ave - on 5th floor). Very good guys. Also, if you can get to Summit, NJ, Joe at Eastern Ice Sports is an excellent fitter (call for an appointment). Both places carry Graf (Westside almost exclusively) and are absolutely worth the trip. I've been to a bunch of places and most have no idea how to fit.

[Hipster 5]

I was told by a guy at my LHS that the "L" shaped boots are better because the reduce the stretching on the sides of the boot (around the second or third eyelet). He said that many of the older skates (like Bauer 3000, Microns, etc.) would develop creases in this area, and the newer "L" shaped boots prevented this. ......

The crease - or hinge as many called it - allowed for a natural ankle movement - you need this freedom to control your edges. When I coached I would really mess with the kids when we worked powerskating drills (especially those that thought they needed to wrap their laces around their ankles or tape their ankles "for support". I would untie my skates and loosen one eylet at a time until I was demonstrating the drills without laces in my skates and my tongues pulled forward... Way back when, a boot was considered worn out or broken down when this area and the ankle\heel area had gotten soft and lost it's support. The manufacturers have tried to overcome this by using plastic micro shells instead of layers of leather and padding to provide stiffness. I think one of the first skates to feature this was the Bauer Composites. Then the manufacturers went nuts with the plasics trying to go lighter and stiffer and made them - IMHO - basically ski boots. GRAF is the only company making a "skaters boot" anymore. Think about it... how many skaters don't use one or two eyelets to get more foot\ankle mobility.... you never used to have to do that unless the boot was simply too high for your taste. And if you're not 40something then it would never occur to you 'cuz the new style is all you've ever really known.

....... Also, he said that the "L" shaped boots actually helped you skate better because the tongues and design "sprung" you back and forth, thus providing better support.

I strongly disagree with this thought....if it's springing you back and forth you are wasting energy "loading those springs".... If it were that great, why do speed skaters wear what looks like a running shoe with a blade on it? Sorry, I grew up in the day when skates had NO SUPPORT and you learned to control your edges. I ordered my boots in a L2 stiffness beginning in the mid 80's because I was killing a pair of skates a season. They had the support needed to last two seasons, but once broken in, they had the hinge in the ankle area that allowed you to precisely control the placement of weight on your edges.

Jarick

The Grafs "could" allow you to not skip eyelets..... the ones that I have tried on and skated with have had a lower boot height ~one eyelet lower. The boot also allows you to lean\flex forward and fully "point your toe" at the end of your stride where the plastic fantastic boots won't. The Cobra mounts are supposed to lean you forward too.... anyone noticing a trend here? My 707 Graf's are pretty beat, but I'm considering taking them to the guy that did all of Paul Coffey's skate stitching when he was here in Pittsbugh. Maybe get them rebuilt if he still does that kind of work....

All of this still doesn't help you if the boots don't fit yer feet!

I agree with everything Zebra Steve has said, 100%

[Powerfibers 8]

My first good skates after my Mega 10-90s were 735s. My foot has a narrow heel with a wide forefoot. But, for me the biggest factor is a high instep. I suffered through the 735s and then Supreme One 55s.

Yesterday, I tried on just about every model in the shop. When I tried the upgrade Supreme One75, the fitter says, "you are busting out of that." I told him that I bought the One55 there and he was shocked that they sold me a skate that did not have the depth I needed.

The Flexlite 4.0's are what I ended up with. I did not have them baked and they are by far the best fitting skate for my foot shape. Imagine the skate just not wrapping around your foot, and now it does.

I played a game in them last night and did a two hour mite practice this morning. I have never had the support or edge control I have now. Unreal. I am sorta pissed that I spent over $600 on the last two pairs before getting a good fit. Shame on me, I guess.

[Jarick 5]

So they're like a deeper, wider Vapor fit? I might have to add these to the list for the next go round.

[joeyisfunny 0]

...The CCM skates are nice and have good heel to instep depth. They're ridiculously deep. They're wide in the heel but will mold to your foot after the FIT system fitting...

Is this really true? Can you narrow the heel width in the FIT system, or just applying your own pressure at home?

[Derek 0]

Despite being 22, I just started playing ice hockey about two years ago. First four months or so I was using my buddy's old Mission skates. Despite the fact that they hurt like a b*tch and didn't fit my feet at all, I learned to skate and play hockey in them. Soon thereafter, I decided to stop being cheap and buy my own properly fitting skates that I could wear for drop-ins and hopefully one day play beer league (serious dream right there...haha). :: Enter bender jokes here ::

Anyway, my foot is pretty hard to fit. I have a wide forefoot (toe width is average, but I have protusions on the outside of my forefeet), really skinny heels, and skinny ankles. Also have a pretty high arch. So I went to a "reputable" LHS and they fit me in some Graf 735's. After baking and punching out some areas (forefoot protrusions and prominent ankle bones), they seemed to fit very well. Unfortunately, I didn't know anything about the pencil test at the time and the LHS didn't take it into account. Due to my high arches, I have a tough time lacing these skates, yet alone playing in them without lots of pain. I've dealt with that pain for over a year now, but it's starting to get unbearable. I'm getting lots of lace bite on the tops of my feet and the beginning of my ankles because the skates don't have enough depth for my high arches. I've tried different laces, different footbeds, different lacing styles, etc. Always getting the same type of pain. And now that I'm playing more and more often, the pain never seems to go away. The dress shoes I wear to work seem to hurt my feet now. Is there anything else I can do to make these 735's work or are they a lost cause?

Also, I tried on a pair of Flexlite 4.0's recently and they seemed to fit much better, but still not good enough. The pencil test was very, very close but if I put in any footbeds for my high arches, chances are I would fail the test. Also, they seemed very comfortable when I tried them on - almost too comfortable - which made me wonder if they didn't fit at all. My heel was also a bit loose in them. Overall, they were more comfortable than my 735's but I'm not sure they would be the right fit either. Also, the LHS's around me either don't have good selection, don't have good service, or both, so it's tough to get properly fitted in skates.

Any suggestions? Can I make the 735's work? Would Flexlites somehow work? 709's? Do I need customs? Thanks in advance!

This may already be settled, but I will respond anyway. You need a deeper skate. I have a similar problem as you, lots of lace bite. I am going with the G70. Have you tried the G70? How pronounced is your heel?

[joeyisfunny 0]

My first good skates after my Mega 10-90s were 735s. My foot has a narrow heel with a wide forefoot. But, for me the biggest factor is a high instep. I suffered through the 735s and then Supreme One 55s.

Yesterday, I tried on just about every model in the shop. When I tried the upgrade Supreme One75, the fitter says, "you are busting out of that." I told him that I bought the One55 there and he was shocked that they sold me a skate that did not have the depth I needed.

The Flexlite 4.0's are what I ended up with. I did not have them baked and they are by far the best fitting skate for my foot shape. Imagine the skate just not wrapping around your foot, and now it does.

I played a game in them last night and did a two hour mite practice this morning. I have never had the support or edge control I have now. Unreal. I am sorta pissed that I spent over $600 on the last two pairs before getting a good fit. Shame on me, I guess.

Ok this is crazy. After numerous posts Ive read about the flexlite not being a deep skate and the same as a supreme, you come along and basically say the flexlite is deeper than your One55! Do the supremes vary in depth throughout the line or something? Whats going on here?

This may already be settled, but I will respond anyway. You need a deeper skate. I have a similar problem as you, lots of lace bite. I am going with the G70. Have you tried the G70? How pronounced is your heel?

Im also considering the x70 line, probably 670 because of price. Dont know how stiff their "mid-stiff" rating is though...

[rachael7 1]

Im also considering the x70 line, probably 670 because of price. Dont know how stiff their "mid-stiff" rating is though...

More than stiff enough for recreational skating. Any of them are really, even the entry level ones. In fact, many people would say that a new skater with less strength might actually skate better in a slightly less stiff skate anyway.

[joeyisfunny 0]

More than stiff enough for recreational skating. Any of them are really, even the entry level ones. In fact, many people would say that a new skater with less strength might actually skate better in a slightly less stiff skate anyway.

Interesting... do you have any opinion on the low cut ankle of graf skates affecting less strong ankles?

[rachael7 1]

Interesting... do you have any opinion on the low cut ankle of graf skates affecting less strong ankles?

Well, I have had several pairs of Grafs, including back near the beginning of my serious skating, as well as stiffer and higher cut Bauers. But I don't really know how my ankles compare to others in terms of strength - average, I suppose. Honestly, I'm not sure about the whole 'strong ankle' thing you always hear about skating. To me, it seems like balance and technique has a lot more to do with it than actual strength. Getting good weight transfer, etc, just seems to matter more than outright strength. At any rate, I actually liked the low cut boot and the flexibility it gave me - seemed to help maneuverability and such. But everyone is different, so I really don't feel comfortable making any suggestion about how it might or might not work for anyone else.

[joeyisfunny 0]

Well, I have had several pairs of Grafs, including back near the beginning of my serious skating, as well as stiffer and higher cut Bauers. But I don't really know how my ankles compare to others in terms of strength - average, I suppose. Honestly, I'm not sure about the whole 'strong ankle' thing you always hear about skating. To me, it seems like balance and technique has a lot more to do with it than actual strength. Getting good weight transfer, etc, just seems to matter more than outright strength. At any rate, I actually liked the low cut boot and the flexibility it gave me - seemed to help maneuverability and such. But everyone is different, so I really don't feel comfortable making any suggestion about how it might or might not work for anyone else.

I see. Well I think the ankles definitely need a certain level of strength to even be able to control the skate. I mean I can tell I need more strength because my ankles roll when I try to do a one-footed t-stop, for example. If I were stronger I could control the skate to where it would hold straight to allow me to do a correct t-stop. Things like that...

Well I guess Ill just try the 570/670 and go from there.

[skyscrape 5]

I see. Well I think the ankles definitely need a certain level of strength to even be able to control the skate. I mean I can tell I need more strength because my ankles roll when I try to do a one-footed t-stop, for example. If I were stronger I could control the skate to where it would hold straight to allow me to do a correct t-stop. Things like that...

Well I guess Ill just try the 570/670 and go from there.

How are your hockey stops?

[epstud74 24]

709s are cut fairly high compared to other Grafs

[joeyisfunny 0]

709s are cut fairly high compared to other Grafs

True, but those have a wide heel, not for me!

How are your hockey stops?

Right side, pretty good, can lift inside foot and stop on one. Left side needs serious work. :lol: