Calls in Minor Hockey

[Chadd 916]

everyone's advice was muchly appreaciated. scout liked what he saw, and we are begining the next stage of the process, of moving up to a jr. career!

You'll be having famous coaches and players questioning your character and parentage in no time. Congrats and good luck.

[jdaves 0]

You'll be having famous coaches and players questioning your character and parentage in no time. Congrats and good luck.

Thanks!!

Wanted to ask a second question to everyone!

What is the toughest call you as an official have had to make (i.e the hardest, most confusing, etc.)?

[zebra_steve 11]

Chad,

Very good responses...

Shtrsdad,

Unfortunately, some officials are their own worst enemy and they really need to keep their mouths shut. NOT stop communicating, but just shut up. They either talk too much or say things they shouldn't and lose respect because of it. Also, an official MUST know the rules. I cannot tell you how many times I have received emails and phone calls because of this stuff.

An official needs to set his standard early, maintain it, and tweak it as needed. It is much easier to loosen up a little then clamp it down. Something that you will find is that when a game spirals toward an implosion there are usually a couple contributing factors 1) history between the teams that the crew is unaware of and the game is ready to explode before the puck hits the ice 2) A key call is missed that started the escalation of aggression. 3) at least one team has little or no self discipline or respect for their opponent and insists on playing on or over the edge all the time. If the Referee consistently makes the calls that need to be made then the game usually finishes without an eruption - but the penalty total may still be high.

Also, as the level of play increases, generally the players seem "get it" more. I skated a U18AAA game where I told the coaches and the captains before the game that I would talk with anyone so long as they were respectful and realized that it was not a debate, don't swear at me and yell about a non call, keep the hands and sticks down, keep the stick checks on the bottom third or so of the sticks, and finally NOTHING AFTER THE WHISTLE. First call was a dime for THE CAPTAIN yelling, "Hey ref, where's the f...ing call!" after he stepped on a stick and fell down..... I talked to the benches briefly after the call and then I skated a track meet.... I mean end to end for the next 40+ minutes... I called a couple hooks, a slash, and one high hit the rest of the game.... They took it to heart that I would call what was there and they listed to what I said.... When the sticks or hands got up I said get 'em down and they listened....

The other side of the coin was a college game that I called 53 (YES 53!) penalties.... A butt end stated a line brawl, guy jumped the bench to reignite it. A hit from behind resulted in a couple more fights. Lots of boarding, slashes, cross checks, and constant crap after the whistle. Second line brawl erupted with maybe a minute left when a goalie got run...... These teams just did not want to play hockey from the first drop of the puck.... What do ya do in this instance - it's a no win situation? Step back and tell 'em, "go ahead and kill each other and I'll call a minor when they put someone in a body bag." ? Now everyone yells to get it under control - but the benches are doing next to nothing to rein in their players? Or call the penalties and endure a 4 hour game and a whole lot of verbal abuse from every direction? In my game, "someone" actually slipped a note under the referee room door between the second and third period.... it said, "get this game under control before someone gets hurt."..... UMMMM WTF do ya think I've been trying to do? At that point the penalty count was close to 40... Dunno what more could I do? I was doing everything I could but the teams had simply lost it.

[zebra_steve 11]

Toughest calls...... Giving a kid a game misconduct that would have him suspended for his all star game, playoffs, senior night, etc...... I'm talking a "book rule" game misconduct - ie: You have what would normally be a minor penalty - say a boarding call where a player is injured as a result of being caught off balance and hitting the boards awkwardly..... You personally know the player, and you "know" that there was no real malice or intent, it was just the circumstance......

How about a penalty shot with a minute or so to play (or in OT) of a tied playoff game.....

[furlanitalia 1]

If it's the right call it's never hard. You're just doing your job. H

Hardest calls I have to make are the ones in spring hockey. We're told not to call penalties so the kids come back the next year. Leads to dirty games, and no standard throught the league. so when you do make a good call, or a game breaking calm, you get your head ripped off regardless of whether it's right or wrong.

[Chadd 916]

The other side of the coin was a college game that I called 53 (YES 53!) penalties.... A butt end stated a line brawl, guy jumped the bench to reignite it. A hit from behind resulted in a couple more fights. Lots of boarding, slashes, cross checks, and constant crap after the whistle. Second line brawl erupted with maybe a minute left when a goalie got run...... These teams just did not want to play hockey from the first drop of the puck.... What do ya do in this instance - it's a no win situation? Step back and tell 'em, "go ahead and kill each other and I'll call a minor when they put someone in a body bag." ? Now everyone yells to get it under control - but the benches are doing next to nothing to rein in their players? Or call the penalties and endure a 4 hour game and a whole lot of verbal abuse from every direction? In my game, "someone" actually slipped a note under the referee room door between the second and third period.... it said, "get this game under control before someone gets hurt."..... UMMMM WTF do ya think I've been trying to do? At that point the penalty count was close to 40... Dunno what more could I do? I was doing everything I could but the teams had simply lost it.

If you call enough penalties one side has to run out of bodies eventually. ;)

[chippa13 1844]

When you see a game going down that road then you start getting a little trigger happy with the 10's and gates on the stuff after the whistle. After the first couple get a ten or the showers then things might cool down a little. When you get a line brawl, everybody involved on the ice gets the showers. As Chadd said, sooner or later bodies run out.

[furlanitalia 1]

There was a ref I worked with last spring who used to do the ECHL, and he told me he would be far happier to do a game in which no fight broke out, then to have a game with a fight and have himself be able to make all the right calls cleaning things up. Made me think about how important it is to be good at avoiding messes then being good at cleaning them up. See, I had always felt that going into a game the ref was supposed to be there to clean everything up. Now that I look at things the other way it makes games a lot easier and more fun knowing that I'm doing my job as best I can.

Ultimately, we'll always have fans who don't understand about "getting control of the game". But if I can help prevent an injury on the ice, and keep the game actually about playing hockey, then they can yell all they want.

[chippa13 1844]

"An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure."

In order to prevent some retaliations I would tell the guy who received the initial slash/dirty hit/what have you that I had the call. A quick "I got him" with my arm raised would help, plus, the guy who was on the receiving end knew I was paying attention.

[furlanitalia 1]

Great point Chippa, and that's where communication helps. If they don't hear you, then it's their own loss. I do however feel that taking two guys doesn't hurt either team so it is always best to put one team down. If the retaliation is soft take the initial guy, if it's severe give him a double because you warned him to skate away. This way the team knows not to do anything in the future.

[zebra_steve 11]

Great point Chippa, and that's where communication helps. If they don't hear you, then it's their own loss. I do however feel that taking two guys doesn't hurt either team so it is always best to put one team down. If the retaliation is soft take the initial guy, if it's severe give him a double because you warned him to skate away. This way the team knows not to do anything in the future.

Yep, a little preventative officiating goes a long way.... I tell the guys to take the aggressor - make sure that he has two or the extra two. But, if it's even, then it's even so don't make calls up. Also, if you have an interference call that is aggressive (boarding, roughing, etc) don't call interference call it the more aggressive foul to both set the tone and have the score sheet reflect the game played. When I look at a score sheet and I see eight interference calls and fight I wonder if they were playing basketball..... As for ringing them up 'til they don't have enough to continue.... I told a coach flat out that I was gonna do exactly that.... he wasn't interested in getting his team under control so I was.

Another story about judgment... What would you guys call here and why?

I was observing a midget game last month and had another official writing up the referee evaluation for me. At the end of the game play went to the net and a couple players wound up rolling around below the goal line at the buzzer. From what we saw, we both felt that there should be minors and misconducts issued at 0:00... no punches, no helmets pulled off, just pushing and wrestling around and the linesman separated them pretty quick once they got in there. When the crew came into the locker room we find out that he called fighting majors & game misc plus a 3rd man in as well as a game misc for a player pushing a linesman and calling him a fagot (no question about this call). The ref was a bit fired up that they would dare to get into the scrum at the buzzer. I only asked him if he would have made the same calls if it were at the end of the first period..... He thought a while and said no, it would have been unsportsmanlike (and maybe roughing), and misconducts.... So why change the standard now? He called a good game all the way through and maintained a good standard. Now, one team goes into it's next game missing their top 2 defensemen and the other team missing a first line winger... and what does it do for his credibility as a referee?

[furlanitalia 1]

Yep, a little preventative officiating goes a long way.... I tell the guys to take the aggressor - make sure that he has two or the extra two. But, if it's even, then it's even so don't make calls up. Also, if you have an interference call that is aggressive (boarding, roughing, etc) don't call interference call it the more aggressive foul to both set the tone and have the score sheet reflect the game played. When I look at a score sheet and I see eight interference calls and fight I wonder if they were playing basketball..... As for ringing them up 'til they don't have enough to continue.... I told a coach flat out that I was gonna do exactly that.... he wasn't interested in getting his team under control so I was.

Another story about judgment... What would you guys call here and why?

I was observing a midget game last month and had another official writing up the referee evaluation for me. At the end of the game play went to the net and a couple players wound up rolling around below the goal line at the buzzer. From what we saw, we both felt that there should be minors and misconducts issued at 0:00... no punches, no helmets pulled off, just pushing and wrestling around and the linesman separated them pretty quick once they got in there. When the crew came into the locker room we find out that he called fighting majors & game misc plus a 3rd man in as well as a game misc for a player pushing a linesman and calling him a fagot (no question about this call). The ref was a bit fired up that they would dare to get into the scrum at the buzzer. I only asked him if he would have made the same calls if it were at the end of the first period..... He thought a while and said no, it would have been unsportsmanlike (and maybe roughing), and misconducts.... So why change the standard now? He called a good game all the way through and maintained a good standard. Now, one team goes into it's next game missing their top 2 defensemen and the other team missing a first line winger... and what does it do for his credibility as a referee?

Exactly. Don't make calls up, call what you see, and don't embellish what you see just because you're upset that you might now have a write up when the reality is it doesn't deserve anything more then some minors.

[Chadd 916]

The ref was a bit fired up that they would dare to get into the scrum at the buzzer.

I always hated working with guys that took things personally.

[jdaves 0]

I always hated working with guys that took things personally.

i reffed a novice game with a 15 yr old. He made a terrible tripping call, and parents were heckling. The poor kid took if personally, and ended up having to leave the ice crying because he was so upset!

[zebra_steve 11]

I always hated working with guys that took things personally.

Try being the supervisor or the evaluator with that type of official..... Sometimes if a lack of confidence, lack of experience, perceived lack of respect.... Sometime it's really is EGO.....

Sent you a PM... want to talk to you off line about some of this stuff....

i reffed a novice game with a 15 yr old. He made a terrible tripping call, and parents were heckling. The poor kid took if personally, and ended up having to leave the ice crying because he was so upset!

Dave,

Did you sit down with him after the game and talk through it? Try to help him learn from it instead of him just get beat down? There are gonna be days like that and he needs to learn to handle the abuse (you can't toss everyone out) and to learn from his mistakes.

[chippa13 1844]

As much as we'd like to believe it, nobody gets calls right 100% of the time. There are going to be the odd mistakes and missed calls from being blocked out or being at the perfect angle for something to look like what it wasn't. Being a ref, you have to have a thick skin because no matter how good a job you do a coach, parent or player will gripe at you at some point.

One other thing, refs need to support each other on the ice. If a coach is berating your partner and sounds like he's crossing the line then make the call. Sometimes the ref getting the earful doesn't want to make that call because he doesn't want to give the impression that it is getting to him.

[jdaves 0]

Try being the supervisor or the evaluator with that type of official..... Sometimes if a lack of confidence, lack of experience, perceived lack of respect.... Sometime it's really is EGO.....

Sent you a PM... want to talk to you off line about some of this stuff....

Dave,

Did you sit down with him after the game and talk through it? Try to help him learn from it instead of him just get beat down? There are gonna be days like that and he needs to learn to handle the abuse (you can't toss everyone out) and to learn from his mistakes.

I did, i didnt want him to quit reffing over that minor mistake/incident. I also gave him one of my games that he was allowed to do to let him get his confidence back, and to show to him that i believed in him as an official.

[zebra_steve 11]

Thank you Dave.... The rage and vitriol that I've seen directed at a 13 year old kid from a coach or from the stands is unbelievable! Once you got past the abuse issue, did you use the incident to help him refine his penalty standard?

Too many times I have seen that the first reaction is. "well the kid should have just given the coach a bench or a game..." We know that these incidents will happen and we need to work the kids through them...this is something that has to be experienced to be able to deal with it and it is part of the learning curve for the new official. We all have a different tolerance level for abuse. In that respect, we are our own worst enemy as we do take far too much abuse from the benches.

[furlanitalia 1]

Been there. I think I told this story before but here goes: Had a mom snap at a ref at a game I was watching because he didn't break up the fight (even though the linesmen were in there and it was a bantam house game). Needless to say when the game was over the kid looked like he was gonna cry and was so terrified that I was coming down from the crowd to talk to him. I just told him he did the right thing and needs to remember that parents don't know the rules. Block it out, focus on doing your job and the safety of the players, and you'll be fine.

Being able to take a deep breath goes a long way.

That said I'm pretty bad if a fan starts yelling or squawking. I send the odd person home but most I just tell to be quiet by pointing to them and closing my hand. It just drives me crazy that they don't wait to see the call, or freak out if the call isn't made right away. I think my favourite thing is when you send guys to the box just to detain them before sending them home and they flip out because they guy wasn't just sent off the ice.

Sorry, little rant there. Just, if you want to discuss the call come talk to me after the game and I'll gladly explain it. But don't make assumptions.

[jdaves 0]

did you use the incident to help him refine his penalty standard?

Absolutly. We happened to have a supervisor in the stands, and he and i worked together on making the other official feel better about himself as an official!

[zebra_steve 11]

Outstanding..... Zebras helping Zebras..... love it.

[jdaves 0]

This is what i hate about minor hockey officiating clinics. They teach you how to make the right call, proper positioning, etc. but they dont teach you enough about the hardest part, and that is making the tough/close calls, and taking slight abuse from parents, players, and coaching staff.

[zebra_steve 11]

Dave, I can teach positioning and I can show you videos for standard of play\penalties, but I can only discuss judgment. Experience teaches judgment... i am looking to try utilize video to assist in the discussion of judgement but it's really hard to take "ref-eye-view" video 'cuz it's different when you are in the middle of play. Unfortunately, officiating is one of those things that you learn by doing. You need to take the lumps, make mistakes, and then learn from them. Until you missed that one call (or that next call depending on the teams) that would have defused the brewing shitfest, you don't have the perspective to truly understand the context of the discussion. Similarly, having to make the tough call under pressure is something that you can talk about, but it's lost until you've had the experience at least once. Once you've had the experience you can usually relate pretty easily. It helps immeasurably when an experienced official can sit down and discuss the stuff you mentioned while the everything is still fresh in their mind.

[jdaves 0]

i agree 100%, there is something else i wanted to mention, but i am not quite sure how it needs to be worded, so i will think about it for a bit. Through my years of expierence as a hockey official (and a Triple A Minor Baseball Umpire) i have had to over come these obstacles but now i wish there was an actual way that these kids that are starting out, and maybe shy, or hesitant can learn, so they can officiate to the best of their abilities.

[Chadd 916]

This is what i hate about minor hockey officiating clinics. They teach you how to make the right call, proper positioning, etc. but they dont teach you enough about the hardest part, and that is making the tough/close calls, and taking slight abuse from parents, players, and coaching staff.

Our clinics focused more on having the right look or how to cover up mistakes. I believe new officials should have a very black and white standard, if you see a penalty, call it. As you gain experience, you will learn what you can allow and what you have to call.