Complainaing about officials

[chippa13 1844]

Essentially, yes.

[BenderHockey 127]

So what you guys are saying is that AS AN OFFICIAL you feel that it's ok to give it to a fellow official from the bench 'cuz you "know he's not doing his job"?

There is a way to do it, and there are channels to report this stuff through.... the reports of "poor performance" generally tend to hold more weight if they come from a fellow official.

That only applies if the League director actually gives a shit about anything other than collecting the team's money. Our guy really is worthless. He routinely makes rules about playing in your correct skill level, but then ignores them, not to mention ignoring any criticism (constructive or otherwise) of the officials he assigns. That being said...

I have officated before. While I will never claim to be perfect, I DO have respect for those who put forth effort. I will be MUCH more empathetic with someone who is just starting out, but is skating hard and trying to be in position than I will be with the "good" refs who do higher skill levels but just mail in the mens games. If more zebras would lose the "I am God, and when I wear the stripes I can do no wrong" mentality and be more approachable, then they would be able to grow as an official.

[Chadd 916]

There is a way to do it, and there are channels to report this stuff through.... the reports of "poor performance" generally tend to hold more weight if they come from a fellow official.

That does not happen around here. Complaints are ignored and officials get no instruction over and above the 8 hour clinic in the fall.

[Bravada 442 0]

And now I gottta deal with some jagoff that thinks it's fun to yell at the zebras.... That poor excuse for a role model needs to take a step back and consider that just maybe he's poking the stick and the wrong animal.... There are human beings with feelings and emotions out there in those striped shirts he's yelling at.

One thing you have to remember as an official, hell I have it written on the inside of my penalty card I carry with me when I'm officiating just to calm me down. Remember they're yelling at the stripes, not at you.

When guys are yelling at you, they are yelling at the jersey, not at you as a person. If they are complaining about a call, upset, whatever, as long as it is directed towards the stripes you're wearing, then you've got to deal with it (to a point). If it becomes about you personally, thats where action needs to be taken and guys need to be dealt with (ejected, suspended, etc...)

[tareatingrat 4]

As far as communication goes, I really do think it's the referee who has to keep his head at all times.

Even if you're playing bottom of the barrel hockey, you're still playing an physical and emotional game. No, it's not the NHL, but you still want to win and for some guys, they're trying their best and giving it all because they love to do it.

When you think there's a bad call, and you say something about it, what do refs really expect to hear?

"Pardon me, sir, but was that call in jest? Might we discuss this in your parlour over a snifter of sherry?"

If you can't take a bit of colourful language, keep your head, and explain it to a player, go make extra money elsewhere.

It's one thing if a player is constantly yelling at you, going on a tirade and moaning about every call. That guy is probably just a prick anyway, and no, you shouldn't have to stand for it.

But if I get a penalty and ask, "What the f*ck for?" and you give me two more for questioning the call, what the hell? Go home, let us just play a game of pick-up, because an awful ref can ruin what should be an enjoyable game.

Take five seconds and explain the call, or tell me to sit in the box for a minute and you'll explain the call after I've cooled down. I can respect either approach.

And honestly, I'm one of the first guys to give my teammates shit for penalties, or complaining about them. A lot of times you don't realize you took a penalty, and your team needs to tell you that you, in fact, did. But when you're battling and it feels like you're singled out, you need a little bit of on-ice communication, and you need it quickly.

I got two minutes one time for saying, "That's ridiculous," regarding a call. I kid you not. Really? I don't really care who you are at that moment, you're simply being a douche.

As far as respect for a position of authority, sure, but when you're in that position, you should be held to a higher standard. If I chirp because, you know, I'm playing a hard fought game, a big part of your job is to diffuse the situation.

If I flip out, and you keep your head and explain the call, then give me a bit of a warning to keep a more civil tone, then you're putting it back on me and I think that's fair. At that point, I'll probably watch what I'm saying a little more carefully, because you're trying.

If you just give me two because you don't like my attitude, you're going to see a lot more of it.

Again, you shouldn't have to put up with other people's bullshit, either, but you have to look at the circumstances and use some common sense from your position. If you can't do that, then you shouldn't be reffing.

And don't get me wrong, I know there are a lot of good refs out there, (I don't think shitty refs would come into this post to defend themselves) but because a good chunk of the population doesn't play a high-level of hockey, we're left with a really bad taste in our collective mouths because some artard can tie a pair of skates and blow a whistle for cash with little to no oversight.

[Chadd 916]

But if I get a penalty and ask, "What the f*ck for?" and you give me two more for questioning the call, what the hell? Go home, let us just play a game of pick-up, because an awful ref can ruin what should be an enjoyable game.

You're getting the extra two for the expletive directed at the official, not for the question.

[tareatingrat 4]

That's exactly what I mean.

If I'm getting a penalty, I'm probably pissed. Once again, explain the call, give me a warning, and I'll settle down a whole lot more than if you give me two extra. That's NOT a way to settle a player down, and will probably lead to more situations down the road.

And really, there's a difference between asking, "What the f*ck for?" and actually directing vulgarities towards an official.

[Chadd 916]

That's exactly what I mean.

If I'm getting a penalty, I'm probably pissed. Once again, explain the call, give me a warning, and I'll settle down a whole lot more than if you give me two extra. That's NOT a way to settle a player down, and will probably lead to more situations down the road.

And really, there's a difference between asking, "What the f*ck for?" and actually directing vulgarities towards an official.

So you get to act any way you want and it is expected to be forgiven, because you're pissed? If you're next to me and say that in a normal tone of voice but happen to include an expletive, I'll answer but remind you to be more civil. More often than not that particular question is yelled loud enough for people in the lobby to hear it and is then followed with more bitching and complaining. When everyone on the ice and in the stands hears you address the official that way, you should get the extra two every time. You want respect from the refs, give them some as well.

[Bravada 442 0]

That's exactly what I mean.

If I'm getting a penalty, I'm probably pissed. Once again, explain the call, give me a warning, and I'll settle down a whole lot more than if you give me two extra. That's NOT a way to settle a player down, and will probably lead to more situations down the road.

And really, there's a difference between asking, "What the f*ck for?" and actually directing vulgarities towards an official.

No, there isn't a difference.

Would you ask your boss that question that way?

"Tareatingrat, I need you to run over to the warehouse in the South District today and pickup 8 widgets"

"What the f*** for?"

You'll find your ass in the unemployment line.

Now if you asked "Ok, what do we need them for? Do I have to go right now or can it wait till I'm done with this other task?" etc... You'd get a much more favorable response.

You'll get more bees with honey than you do with vinegar, if you ask a question in a quiet and respectful way you'll be much better off.

Too many of you guys are watching the NHL or NBA and think thats the way things are done. Maybe in the upper levels, but not on the beer league levels of the respective sports.

[tareatingrat 4]

Oh, there's a huge difference. In this case, I'm paying the ref, not getting paid by him.

So with your logic, when the ref does a shitty job, I should fire him? I wish I could. Sorry referees, just because you put on the stripes doesn't mean you're my boss. If anything, it should be the other way around. But if you constantly and consistently screw up, and I give you hell for it, I get tossed and I have no recourse?

And let's not be stupid here. Refs have never played hockey? In the heat of the moment, you've never swore?

If you're next to me and say that in a normal tone of voice but happen to include an expletive, I'll answer but remind you to be more civil.

I do believe that's (sort of) all I asked. But if you expect everyone to come up and whisper it in your ear, c'mon.

Like I said, the ref needs to keep a level head, because he's there to be as objective as possible. I've also said that if it gets to the point that you can't settle a guy down and he's just being an idiot, then yeah, toss him. I won't disagree that sometimes that's just the best solution. But an automatic two minutes for somebody swearing in a hockey game? That doesn't help anything.

If you haven't at least tried to diffuse the situation, then you're no good out there as an official.

However, if you want to relate it my actual job, I am in a position of authority over a bunch of people every single day, and I've had people swear at me many times. If my first reaction was to get rid of them because I didn't like their attitude and didn't want to deal with it, I would have my boss come down and ask me why I made that decision. That never (or very rarely) happens, though, because when somebody is pissed, I don't take it personally. The language is just an expression of anger because somebody lost it in that moment, and generally, there is no ill-will meant--it's a way to vent frustration. Ignore the language because it's unimportant--deal with the underlying situation properly. Calm things down by staying calm. A knee-jerk reaction just escalates things.

It's one thing if somebody is belligerent and becoming disruptive or threatening. I said I don't have an issue tossing someone for that. But for a swear word here and there, or because you don't like somebody's tone of voice? Really.

[Chadd 916]

Like I said, the ref needs to keep a level head, because he's there to be as objective as possible. I've also said that if it gets to the point that you can't settle a guy down and he's just being an idiot, then yeah, toss him. I won't disagree that sometimes that's just the best solution. But an automatic two minutes for somebody swearing in a hockey game? That doesn't help anything.

If you haven't at least tried to diffuse the situation, then you're no good out there as an official.

It's all in how you phrase things. You want to tell me the call sucks, that's fine. You're talking about the penalty I called and we can agree to disagree on that. You want to tell me I suck. You've now made it personal and that's not acceptable. I'm not there to be your verbal pincushion so you can get out whatever anger and frustration that you have out of your system. I treat everyone with respect when I hit the ice as a ref and expect the same from the players.

There is a difference between trying to diffuse a situation and having someone yell "what the F for?" when they get a penalty. That's just a player that is unable or unwilling to control his emotions. You want a therapist, the going rate for that is a lot higher than for a ref.

[tareatingrat 4]

Too many refs take things personally, then hand out punitive penalties because they got their feelings hurt, and you talk about players unwilling or unable to control their emotions.

I won't pretend that there are a lot of players out there who shouldn't be playing, because they're there for the wrong reasons and are almost dangerous on the ice. I don't have any tolerance for them either.

But there are just as many officials in the same boat, but because the officials have all the "power" they should be held to a higher standard than the players in most regards.

[chippa13 1844]

For the most part, the "state cop" refs are few and far between. They are out there and it sucks when you get them but you just have to ride through those games, as hard as it may be to bite your tongue because those guys will start climbing the ladder (2, 10, gate) on you for the littlest comments.

[Chadd 916]

Too many refs take things personally, then hand out punitive penalties because they got their feelings hurt, and you talk about players unwilling or unable to control their emotions.

I won't pretend that there are a lot of players out there who shouldn't be playing, because they're there for the wrong reasons and are almost dangerous on the ice. I don't have any tolerance for them either.

But there are just as many officials in the same boat, but because the officials have all the "power" they should be held to a higher standard than the players in most regards.

I don't disagree that there are guys in stripes that are there to be the man in charge and those guys shouldn't be on the ice. I'm a pretty reasonable guy and teams were generally happy to see me working their games, so my approach worked in most cases. There were always the players/teams that were constantly dirty/abusive that seemed to rack up the penalties no matter who worked their games, they hated every ref that didn't just put their whistle in their pocket.

[eric42434224 1]

The ref being paid, the ref making a bad call, and the player playing in an emotional sport, are all moot points and bullshit excuses. Treat the ref as a fellow human being and show some courtesy. It is that simple. Yelling expletives at someone is not an acceptable way to behave in almost any circumstance.....why is it acceptable in this one? Answer: it isn't.

[furlanitalia 1]

Thank you Eric, that pretty much sums it up. Tareatingrat, you seem to have had some terrible experiences with ref's, but ultimately it comes to down to treating the person in stripes like a human being. If you make things personal with them, don't be surprised if you get some extra calls coming your way. Treat them with the respect they deserve, and you'll get the respect you deserve back.

[Bravada 442 0]

Oh, there's a huge difference. In this case, I'm paying the ref, not getting paid by him.

So with your logic, when the ref does a shitty job, I should fire him? I wish I could. Sorry referees, just because you put on the stripes doesn't mean you're my boss. If anything, it should be the other way around. But if you constantly and consistently screw up, and I give you hell for it, I get tossed and I have no recourse?

And let's not be stupid here. Refs have never played hockey? In the heat of the moment, you've never swore?

Yes, you can fire an official. You do that by going above the official to the coordinator, or you stop playing in the league. Either way you have showed your displeasure with it.

The explanation I'm trying to get across here is that as an official, the position they are in, they immediately command some semblance of respect, just because of the position, which is just the same as a boss.

Anyone here that doesn't at least understand the issue here needs to put on a set of stripes and go officiate a game. Everything looks a hell of a lot different from the otherside of the playing surface and it really can't be explained, you have to see it for yourself.

[tareatingrat 4]

Actually, no, I rarely get penalties. And for the most part, I don't have problems with referees when they do their job, even if that job includes calling me for a penalty I don't agree with. Most of the time I'll just skate to the box and ask my team if that was actually a penalty. Most of the time, they say it was and I suck it up.

But I'm just playing devil's advocate here, because I don't like the way most beer leagues are set up and refs have little oversight where situations arise from poor officiating.

The ref being paid, the ref making a bad call, and the player playing in an emotional sport, are all moot points and bullshit excuses. Treat the ref as a fellow human being and show some courtesy. It is that simple. Yelling expletives at someone is not an acceptable way to behave in almost any circumstance.....why is it acceptable in this one? Answer: it isn't.

Sorry, but then hockey isn't really an acceptable sport to play in your utopia, with people shoving each other around, hitting each other, fighting and trying to win. I mean, that's really not an acceptable way to behave in almost any circumstance, either. Oh, except, you know, sports like hockey.

Really, we all know what the game entails, and that's going to include some comments contrary to the "sensibilities" of others.

Am I saying all refs are bad? No. Am I saying that they do have a responsibility because of their position on the ice, yes.

Do I think it's acceptable to get right up in a refs face and start berating him? No. But I don't think handing out penalties for "attitude" does much to solve anything.

I don't disagree that there are guys in stripes that are there to be the man in charge and those guys shouldn't be on the ice. I'm a pretty reasonable guy and teams were generally happy to see me working their games, so my approach worked in most cases. There were always the players/teams that were constantly dirty/abusive that seemed to rack up the penalties no matter who worked their games, they hated every ref that didn't just put their whistle in their pocket.

Maybe that's what I'm getting at. Being reasonable and not taking things personally. In no way should you have to put up with somebody tearing into you. But taking that first simple step, communicating with the teams or players and keeping a cool head will do a better job of keeping control of the game than handing out penalties for silly things.

[tareatingrat 4]

Yes, you can fire an official. You do that by going above the official to the coordinator, or you stop playing in the league. Either way you have showed your displeasure with it.

I have done both. In either case, the officials were not disciplined nor were any of their decisions rescinded. Not that I ever expect they would have been, but the point is that it doesn't matter what I do.

The explanation I'm trying to get across here is that as an official, the position they are in, they immediately command some semblance of respect, just because of the position, which is just the same as a boss.

Agreed, to a point. While I respect the position of referee, depending on how that referee calls a game and conducts himself, I may not respect the person. Put a pig in a suit, and all of that.

At the same time, a referee should respect the player, because they're the ones who gave him a job and entrusted him to call a game fairly. But depending on how that player plays a game and conducts himself, the referee may not respect the person.

However, because the referee is in the position of power, his conduct should be held to a higher standard. No, he shouldn't put up with bullshit, but when minor scuffles or disagreements occur, he should be reasonable and fair in his judgments. Many times, referees are just as guilty of the players in letting their emotions cloud that judgment, but they have the ability to dish out punishment for it.

Anyone here that doesn't at least understand the issue here needs to put on a set of stripes and go officiate a game. Everything looks a hell of a lot different from the otherside of the playing surface and it really can't be explained, you have to see it for yourself.

I really can't argue with this. I don't think it's easy being a referee, I'm just saying that it takes a certain type of person with some decent interpersonal skills. Like I've said, I deal with similar situations daily, and I have to keep a clear head.

When it all comes down to it, my issue arises from the fact that if I do have a problem with a particular official, there is nothing I can do about it, or nothing that will make any difference. A lot of referees know this, and they use it to their advantage.

I'm not saying all. Again, I play in the beer leagues, and it seems that there's some agreement in terms of the wildly varying quality of officiating in the bottom levels.

But please don't misconstrue my complaints about certain referees to think I dislike them all. There are a lot of guys I'm excited to see when I step on the ice because I know that officiating is one thing I don't have to worry about.

Anyway, I've said enough on this topic to the point of redundancy. If anyone wishes to continue the conversation, feel free to PM me.

[furlanitalia 1]

Do I think it's acceptable to get right up in a refs face and start berating him? No. But I don't think handing out penalties for "attitude" does much to solve anything.

Next time a player is pissed over a call and smashes his stick over the boards or slams the gate when I'm right behind him I'll keep this in mind. Cause a broken arm over some hissy fit doesn't need to be addressed.

I'm not saying all. Again, I play in the beer leagues, and it seems that there's some agreement in terms of the wildly varying quality of officiating in the bottom levels.

But please don't misconstrue my complaints about certain referees to think I dislike them all. There are a lot of guys I'm excited to see when I step on the ice because I know that officiating is one thing I don't have to worry about.

Anyway, I've said enough on this topic to the point of redundancy. If anyone wishes to continue the conversation, feel free to PM me.

I think that's the point that is getting beaten to death. Mens leagues are a crap shoot sometimes. Late night games most guys won't call a thing. Ultimately you never know how it will go.

I also think a lot of what is being said here is more in reference to how we (as officials approach minor league games). If the respect is shown there and enforced there (from both the officials,the players, and coaches) then a lot of these problems to become a moot point and everyone is free to just enjoy the game.

[Chadd 916]

I think we all agree that a little respect goes a long way on the ice. Let's just end it there and we can all go away happy.