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aarias19

Easton Player boot with Graf cowling

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Hi, long time lurker on the board.

After rounds of trying different skates, I finally found a skate that kept my ankle locked and was wide enough for my feet - Eastons. I'm primarily a goalie, and I've been using Grafs the past four years. They fit, kinda... there's lots of negative space in the boot.

I'd really like to put the cowlings from my 6.5E Grafs to my 6W Easton player boot. My LHS just told me they can't do it. Should I send them out to a shop to get them done? I know for a fact I've seen player boots with cowlings (on a goalie board of which I'm a member), so I know it's possible; has anyone else done this? Would like to hear some experiences if anyone's got any.

Thanks in advance!

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I've done it with several different pairs of player boots and cowlings. I am thoroughly convinced that, for many people, this kind of mixing and matching allows for optimal fit with zero sacrifice of mobility or protection. A lot of people - including very experienced shop techs - balk at the idea because they assume that a goalie's boot needs to be low-cut with a soft Achilles pad to allow for significant plantar flexion. This is, of course, nonsense. *Some* goalies might still want that flexibility, but it's of little to no use to most, and quite probably detrimental to many.

Apart from that kind of peculiar prejudice - in the literal sense of having pre-judged a thing - there are some not insignificant technical issues. It can be extremely tricky to match the pitch of most player boots to a goalie cowling. In addition, the heel of the player boot may not sit well in the heel of the cowling, or, similarly, in the toe of the cowling where it curls back over the top of the foot.

As a result, many shops won't do it because they can't give a reasonable estimate, and if they did bill you for the labour, it would be exorbitant. Even shops that have done this in the past, or have looked carefully at the skates of people who have done it, will often say no simply because it's not worth the hassle to them.

Personally, I've found it easier to work with T-nuts and screws on my own, where a shop would use rivets. Since you have a pair of Grafs, you can re-use their T-nuts, though the machine screws may be to short to go through the thicker cowling and the shims. You'll need a bunch of 1/16" plastic to make shims, a steady drill (I'd suggest a manual, hand-crank drill), ideally some clamps and a vice, and most of a weekend to blow uninterrupted.

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Law Goalie - thanks for your input. I was hoping to hear from you, since I knew from Goaliestore that you're one of the Frankenskate experts.

I agree that the boot needs to fit. I've had shin splints in every pair of skates I've ever skated in - not the Eastons. It's a revelation to have skates that don't hurt!

I should have at least asked them to remove the holders on the player boots, then I could just work with the Grafs to get the cowling off and just see if the boot even fits. They're both spare pairs so I have some room for error.

Another question - player skates always have high tendon guards, while goal skates don't. Have you had a problem with these? Have you ever cut one off?

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Yeah, I'd suggest having the shop pull the rivets. Let them know you're going to go ahead and do it yourself, and share your results.

I have absolutely never had a problem with the tendon guard of a player boot, in or out of a cowling; as a result, I've never seen the need to cut one off, which could compromise the integrity of the boot.

Like I said, a lot of people *assume* that the tendon guard will cause problems because they presume that a goalie needs to be able to flex his ankle backwards (plantar flexion) as muchy as forward (dorsiflexion). This simply isn't the case. Plantar flexion is only an issue in toe-up split-saves and really old-school skate-saves -- and, to be honest, since I still have those rather rusty tools in my bag, I can still use them just fine when and as needed with a tendon guard.

Expert?-- only in the sense that I've tested and tried a few things. Unfortunately, I'll have to confine myself to general advice since I've never worked with Easton boots.

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Sounds like I gotta take my Eastons back to the LHS.

I just pulled the cowlings off my Grafs just now. Relatively easy, save for one stuck screw.

I'll also probably have to visit my friend's workshop to borrow some drills, I think I'll have to redrill some holes since the Easton heel is narrow.

I think I just needed the confidence to go out and actually get it done myself. Thanks Law!

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Glad to help.

I doubt you'll be able to re-use *any* holes in the cowling. My advice there (which I ought to have mentioned) is to fill in all the holes in the cowling with a quality drillable epoxy (Lepage 2-part gel syringe has worked well for me), then drill afresh.

This part, obviously, is where things get tricky. The logic behind most normal skate-holder adaptations is to drill the boot to fit the holder. The opposite (at least in my experience) is the best approach with cowlings. This means that your template for drilling (the hole-pattern on the sole of the boot) is from one angle inside the boot, and from the other, it's covered by the cowling: not a good position. This is a very big part of why shops hate doing it - this kind of work with a riveter is a bloody nightmare.

What you'll need to do is to get one screw in the heel (relatively easy) to hold the cowling in place, then immediately do one in the toe on a diagonal to secure the position of the boot. As far as where you place these holes, you're looking for the best 'neutral' position inside the cowling: by that I mean the place where the boot sits without wanting to shift. If you start screwing the first couple in on a slope (especially in the heel-cup for the wrap-around toe), the rest will pull it back and forth out of position, and you'll end up checkmating yourself: the last one or two screws will want to go in on some bizarre angle that won't thread in the nuts.

You will probably need to widen the rivet holes in the Easton soles to insert the Graf T-nuts. Try it without widening them, but give up easily and only expand it by, say, 1/16" diameter at a time.

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Yeah, I was already thinking that - to anchor the cowling in the heel and then try to do the ones in the toe at an angle. I noticed when I was removing the cowling that the nuts were installed at an angle. Makes sense.

Also realized I will have to drill the cowl. Easier material to drill and the skate is just a smidge narrower than the Graf boot. I'm hoping that the holes I use in the heel will be the same; and that the holes in the toe will be far enough away from those on the Graf cowl such that I don't risk cracking the cowl.

I am a little worried about how small the rivet holes are on the Easton boot. I'm assuming there's risk of the outsole cracking if I don't expand those holes as you said?

Decided to remove the rivets on the boot on my own, was really excited when I was able to remove one last night but the hammering was too loud, so I'm gonna do it today. So exciting!!

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Don't go wild with the amount of screws or rivets. Goal skates simply do not need the 14 that player skates have, in fact don't even bother to put any in the toe area.

Start right behind the toe cap. 4 screws and 4 rivets would work nice.

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So here's what I did a few days ago, with the help of my LHS and my buddy's workshop.

4july20100021.jpg

Got the LHS to take out the holder and rivets from my Easton SE16s. I had taken out 12 rivets myself from one skate... but after stabbing myself with a screwdriver and cussing enough to waken the neighbors, I decided to just have them do the rest. No charge, too; thought that was a nice touch!

Got the Grafs out of their cowlings; MUCH easier since there's only five bolts and can be removed by flathead screwdriver. One of the things I noticed about the Graf boot was that the pitch was identical to the Easton boot, so I wouldn't have to deal so much with the shimming. Awesome! Also, Graf 6.5 appears to be about Easton 6, and I had both those sizes so the boots sat in the same place within the cowling. Oh but wait, there's a protruding section on the bottom of the skate, some gimmicky "Dry Flow" bump that allows for moisture to drain from the floor of the skate. Hard to see it here, it's a lot darker than I thought it would be, but you can see a little bump just after the flat toe area on the floor of the skate.

4july2010004.jpg

This is the area I decided to sand down on the cowling. I thought about sanding down the bump, but the outsole of the Easton skate, which was composite, was so thin I didn't want to risk making the floor of the skate too fragile. So I ended up taking an angle grinder and very very gently sanding down the area on the cowling until the boot sat in the cowling without moving. This was really hard to figure out - the cowling isn't clear so you can't visually confirm that the area was cleared out enough to allow the boot to sit properly. I just had to go by feel.

4july2010003.jpg

My friend was helping me out, and while he hadn't worked on skates ever before, he got the gist of the project and suggested I use some glue to connect the cowling and the skate, that way when I was drilling holes the boot wouldn't shift from the position that I wanted within the skate. I'd use clamps to keep the skate in place as the glue set, and since we only had two clamps I did one at a time. Then we went to lunch.

4july2010005.jpg

4july2010006.jpg

We had a debate as to what to use to secure the cowling, since my friend had rivets but they were small and short. I didn't really want to use rivets since I always thought they were a little small, so we just went with the Graf screws again. But since the skate was glued down (each of these skates were spares, so I really had the freedom to experiment), there was no way I would really need to unscrew them out... I just wanted the ability to tighten them if heaven forbid I ever needed to. I ended up using some screws from his stash in combination with the Graf screws, 6 in total.

4july2010007.jpg

4july2010008.jpg

4july2010009.jpg

4july2010010.jpg

Unfortunately there's a loss of symmetry with the skates... after a while we just bolted them down however we could. Some of the holes are pretty close to the original holes in the cowling - hoping that won't be a problem as they were filled with epoxy... But since we finished a little earlier than I'd anticipated (I thought I'd be in his shop until 9-10 pm), I was able to take them out for a spin on the ice. I am injured at the moment (hence why I had the time to do this project!) but was able to take a few laps and they held up fine. Obviously I wasn't able to do any goal maneuvers with them, but I think the boot is pretty firmly anchored in there. One of the problems was that the left boot isn't perfectly straight in the cowling - oops - but it's not off by too much.

Anyway, here's to the end of what I thought was a pretty fun experiment! Obviously I bought both skates, but the overall cost of the job was about $9 - which was a chisel that I used to try to help me remove rivets (which, I could have not bought had I just taken it to the LHS first) and a tube of epoxy to anchor the boot.

Were I to do it again, I most definitely would have a little more of a plan on where to drill into the cowling. At one point we had two drills going at once, one with the bit and one to screw in the bolts, and my friend got a little too into it and started drilling into the other skate while I was still working on the first. It'd be nice to get everything all even, but, I don't think it'll matter, the most important thing is the boot stays anchored in the cowling.

4july2010011.jpg

It's exciting thinking that I can skate out and play goal in the same boot! And thanks to you guys for the advice!

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Congratulations on completing your project! It looks really well done overall lol!! Love the look of the white se16 i have to say.

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Well done!

I really like the idea of using a temporary adhesive to find the 'sweet spot' in the cowling where the boot aligns properly. That was one of my biggest issues, and yours looks like an excellent solution. I'm about to go through this again, and I'll definitely be using that in my process. It might even be possible to get away with double-sided tape.

The 'vent bump' on the sole of the Eastons is one of those totally unforseeable little nuisances that invariably crops up in mating cowlings and player boots; definitely brought a little wry smile. :)

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Thanks guys! It was a really fun project and I'm glad I didn't end up doing something drastic like breaking the cowling. I was surprised at how flexy it was - made me remember why pucks can still sting when they hit that area!

Ha, that vent port just couldn't make things easy for me, could it?? I knew there was going to be something like that that would get in the way. Luckily my friend had a tool to help me find a solution for it. I thought about drilling a hole through so that I could make a new vent port, but decided not to.

The adhesive wasn't temporary - it's epoxy - so that boot isn't going anywhere...

I think I spent a fair amount of time just staring at the skates before I got started with this whole project, afraid of what might or might not happen. Really helped to hear from others who had done this before! I guess it's what the forum is all about.

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