Snap/mini slap shot and balance

[ktang 34]

I agree. Seems like he could load it a lot more and really get some pop on the shots.

The more you load a stick, the longer it takes to get the shot off. He seems to focus on getting the shot off fast

I'm curious about loading the stick's delaying the shot. In my perception (which could be distorted), the difference between releasing from a more loaded stick, and from a barely loaded stick, would not be humanly discernible and would not affect the goaltender's reaction threshold.

[gxc999 7]

I don't know man, I think you'll have to ask some goalies and see what they think. Personally, the longer shot time does allow other skaters to block it but I can't tell what the goalies think otherwise.

[Chadd 916]

I'm curious about loading the stick's delaying the shot. In my perception (which could be distorted), the difference between releasing from a more loaded stick, and from a barely loaded stick, would not be humanly discernible and would not affect the goaltender's reaction threshold.

I'm not comparing from the point of being loaded, I'm comparing from the start of the shooting motion. When whipping the hands with a stiffer stick, it is off your stick faster. While you should get more velocity with a loaded stick, it does take more time to load it and then release, as opposed to the other method.

[ktang 34]

I don't know man, I think you'll have to ask some goalies and see what they think. Personally, the longer shot time does allow other skaters to block it but I can't tell what the goalies think otherwise.

I'm not comparing from the point of being loaded, I'm comparing from the start of the shooting motion. When whipping the hands with a stiffer stick, it is off your stick faster. While you should get more velocity with a loaded stick, it does take more time to load it and then release, as opposed to the other method.

If you're comparing it from the start of loading to the end of the loading, the same force would load the whippier stick faster if two sticks of different flex are flexed to the same degree.

If the whippier stick is loaded to a greater degree, then it depends on how much additional loading is involved.

Where it gets interesting is the transition; a whippier stick is easier to hold loaded, whereas a stiffer stick will spring back with, perhaps, enough force to overpower the shooter's attempt to hold the load.

Where it gets most interesting is a player who releases as soon as s/he loads a whippier stick. Then, if the player is letting the stick do the work, the release is dependent on the shaft's frequency (thinking of the stick as a cantilevered beam). A stiffer stick would have a higher frequency (spring back faster), but would the frequency difference be humanly discernible?

Taking it all together, would a faster load + an efficient transition + a slower release in a whippier stick be on par with a slower load + a more efficient transition + a faster release in a stiffer stick?

[ktang 34]

I had my Eureka moment the other day when I was being fitted with a stick at Base Hockey. By rotating my top hand so that the thumb/forefinger V is moved from the top of the shaft to the fat side, I could load the stick faster and further back, and then just let it spring and do the work. I think it's easier to disguise the top hand rotation with a looser glove.

[XveritasX 13]

I had my Eureka moment the other day when I was being fitted with a stick at Base Hockey. By rotating my top hand so that the thumb/forefinger V is moved from the top of the shaft to the fat side, I could load the stick faster and further back, and then just let it spring and do the work. I think it's easier to disguise the top hand rotation with a looser glove.

Hmm interesting, I will have to try this.

[Chadd 916]

If you're comparing it from the start of loading to the end of the loading, the same force would load the whippier stick faster if two sticks of different flex are flexed to the same degree.

If the whippier stick is loaded to a greater degree, then it depends on how much additional loading is involved.

The same amount of force won't flex the two different flexes to the same degree. Obviously, the stick with more whip would be loaded more when using the same amount of force.

I had my Eureka moment the other day when I was being fitted with a stick at Base Hockey. By rotating my top hand so that the thumb/forefinger V is moved from the top of the shaft to the fat side, I could load the stick faster and further back, and then just let it spring and do the work. I think it's easier to disguise the top hand rotation with a looser glove.

Holding the butt end in your palm allows your hand to move freely around the stick. When shooting, my top hand rotates as the stick gets in front of my body. As for disguising the motion, no decent goalie is watching your hands.

[ktang 34]

Holding the butt end in your palm allows your hand to move freely around the stick. When shooting, my top hand rotates as the stick gets in front of my body. As for disguising the motion, no decent goalie is watching your hands.

Disguising the motion is for fooling the defending skater (defenseman or forward), not the goalie. I.e., if an offensive player can get off a quick snap shot on goal even if seemingly covered, that increases the offensive potential on the play. If the defending skater is tipped off that a shot is coming, s/he can tip or block it.

[ktang 34]

If you're comparing it from the start of loading to the end of the loading, the same force would load the whippier stick faster if two sticks of different flex are flexed to the same degree.

If the whippier stick is loaded to a greater degree, then it depends on how much additional loading is involved.

The same amount of force won't flex the two different flexes to the same degree. Obviously, the stick with more whip would be loaded more when using the same amount of force.

I think you skipped my second sentence above, but we're observing the same physical phenomena. A corollary to these statements is that less force is needed to load a stick to the same degree.

The shaft's natural frequency dictates how quickly the shaft will get to the steady-state condition wherein the force applied by the shooter matches the force of the shaft's springing back. The natural frequencies of Stiff shafts (100 flex) are higher than those of whippier shafts (80 flex), but is this discernible to a goalie (in a situation with none of those pesky defending skaters)?

Once the stick is released, though, if the shaft is doing the work (the shot that I'm working on right now), the shaft's natural frequency also dictates how quickly it springs back. This is independent of how much it is loaded.

Cantilevered beams are most similar to the shaft's behaviour, but another way to look at this is to compare it to guitar strings. Once the string's natural frequency is set, strumming the string farther doesn't change its frequency; it just changes its volume. To play louder, more force is put on the strings. Once the string is released, only its frequency affects how quickly it unloads. The loading onto the string for a lower frequency string is not discernibly longer than for a higher frequency string (or else guitar solid chords would sound like broken arpeggio chords).

[Chadd 916]

Taking it all together, would a faster load + an efficient transition + a slower release in a whippier stick be on par with a slower load + a more efficient transition + a faster release in a stiffer stick?

1. Depends on the distance from the goalie and the overall velocity of the shot.

2. Many people with a stiff stick use it as a lever and don't actually load it

3. I don't agree with your theory that it takes longer to load a stiffer stick. It takes more force, not more time. To use an extreme example, if you use just enough force to fully load an 80 flex stick and then use the same amount of force to load a 100 flex stick, the 100 flex stick will never fully load.

I see the issue more of: Is the loss of final velocity by using a stiffer stick worth the added quickness in release or does the final velocity of the shot using a softer flex make up for the additional time it takes to load the stick fully and release the puck?

Again, I am talking about the starting point being puck on the stick and no load on the shaft at all.

[ktang 34]

1. Depends on the distance from the goalie and the overall velocity of the shot.

2. Many people with a stiff stick use it as a lever and don't actually load it

3. I don't agree with your theory that it takes longer to load a stiffer stick. It takes more force, not more time. To use an extreme example, if you use just enough force to fully load an 80 flex stick and then use the same amount of force to load a 100 flex stick, the 100 flex stick will never fully load.

I see the issue more of: Is the loss of final velocity by using a stiffer stick worth the added quickness in release or does the final velocity of the shot using a softer flex make up for the additional time it takes to load the stick fully and release the puck?

Again, I am talking about the starting point being puck on the stick and no load on the shaft at all.

Yes, that is the question. There are at least 2 schools of thought here: the first being that a quicker release with a stiffer stick that shoots a resultingly slower shot gets the puck past the goaltender / pesky defending skaters more quickly; and the second that a slower release with a whippier stick that shoots a resultingly faster shot gets the puck past the goaltender / pesky defending skater more quickly.

I'm going by 0.3 seconds being the time allotted to get the puck past the goaltender / pesky defending skaters.

I'm also making the assumption that the shooter imparts the same amount of force on the stick, whether it is a stiff stick or a whippier stick (within reason: no 200-flex Titan-like sticks, and no 45-flex noodles). That is, the same shooter is trying just as hard to shoot, regardless of the staff stiffness. If the same force is being used to load the shaft, the whippier one loads more quickly for the same amount of deflection. This is a very important assumption, and it could definitely be a wrong assumption; even I (strictly a hacker) take a noticeably different shooting motion (after a few tries) with a stiffer shaft. Like you have observed in 3. above, shooters instinctively use more force when they're shooting with a stiffer shaft.

The interesting thing is that, if the shaft is thought of as a spring, the amount of energy stored (to be released) is proportionate to the square of the deflection distance x the shaft's stiffness constant. In this case, for the same amount of loading time, the whippier shaft will load more energy, and if the square of the additional deflection is greater than the shaft's stiffness constant, the released shot will be faster for, the same shooter using a whippier shaft.

My original point was that, because it's easier to hold a whippier shaft loaded, shooters tend to overdo it, or they hold the shaft loaded for too long, and this delay before the release adds to the overall time of the shot (the less efficient transition).

The snap shot that I'm going for uses flex in the shaft. In your point 2. above, if a perfectly consistent shooter (not me) with a perfect long-armed physique (not me) with massive wrist and bicep muscles (not me) filled with an overwhelmingly amount of Type 1 fast-twitch muscle fibres (not me) and no pre-existing tendon issues (not me) uses a 200-flex shaft to take a perfect no-flex shaft all the time, those perfect shots will probably be quick enough to get past the goalie / pesky defending skaters within 0.3 seconds. Maybe at their level of play they only have 0.27 seconds because all of their opponents are high-level pros.

The reason I'm going for the flexed shot (like Kovalev in his instructional video with a 120-flex shaft) is to get the puck past the opposing players within the 0.3 second window (maybe I actually have 0.4-0.5 seconds because it's beer league with older players, and especially if it's a late game and the opposing team couldn't wait to get into the beer) with an imperfect body. I guess that I could figure out the shaft deflection constants for various staff stiffnesses so that I can optimize the amount of loading (guys like Brett Hull seem to have figured it out by experience), but first things first: I need to learn how to load the shaft consistently and release it quickly enough to let it do the work for me.

Again going back to your point 2. above, throwing a spear would take a perfect, imposing physical specimen almost perfect spear-throwing form to equal the effect of an imperfect, smaller specimen using the stored energy in a bow to shoot an arrow. I know that I'm not a perfect specimen, and I would like to be more dangerous offensively in tighter windows of opportunity. A loaded and well-disguised snapshot with the shaft doing the work seems like the way to go for me.

My Eureka moment has helped with the shaft loading (it's a lot easier now). My next steps are to work on the transition (less unecessary hold), and then the disguise and quickness of the release (my snap shot motion is too much like my slap shot motion, which moves my upper arm and elbow away from my body).