Eyelet pattern for new skates

[wHATcOLOR 0]

My pair of Bauer supreme 5000s from 1997 bit the dust last night (cracked holder, don't want to put any money into repairing them).

I was at a shop the week prior scoping out new skates. Have some questions regarding the pattern of the eyelets.

So when I was trying on some new bauer vapors and supremes, the top 3 eyelets were pretty much vertical, one above the other. i know the skates were brand new so they're stiff anyhow, but it seemed to entirely eliminate forward flex.

in contrast, my old bauer 5000s though have a gentle upward slope for the top 3 eyelets, and i can flex forward somewhat.

i tried on some grafs (never considered grafs, but the guy suggested it).. and the eyelets were much more similar to my old skates, with the upward slope, and i could flex forward.

the grafs seemed heavier than the new bauers (though lighter than my old bauers).

long story short, i'm in the market for some new skates, would love to get the benefit of a pair of light skates, and would really like to understand the vertical eyelets on new bauers. when did they start doing this? why did they start doing this? are they they only ones doing this? will foreward flex still be quite limited even after they break in?

thanks for the input

[cooperalls 4]

Sorry for your loss, I shed a single tear for my Supreme 8000's.

If you're like me you probably really liked the stitched nylon/synthetic leather feel of the old supreme line, and now you feel like there isn't a Bauer skate that will be anything close to your 5000's? This is true to some degree, but while I made the switch to new skates reluctantly, I can say there are some definite benefits to late-model skates.

The purpose of the more vertical cut at the top of the boot is to facilitate a more aggressive stance (forward, on the balls of your feet) not to inhibit forward flex. I can't say for sure which company first started doing this, I think it started with the first Bauer Vapor line...so not that long after your 5000's came out. That said, top end boots are significantly stiffer than they were when your 5000's came out, and I'm sure your previous skates were well broken in, so that alone can make it feel like it's tougher to bend your knees. One common way to overcome the "ski-boot feel" is to not lace the top eyelet. This can help make it easier to bend your knees, specially during the break-in period.

It's pretty common for a LHS to recommend Graf skates to people coming out of more traditional stitched boots (Supreme 8000 and lower, CCM X52's etc). It's a good option to consider, but I'd say they would be just as different as the new Supremes, just in different ways. It's definitely worth trying on the new lines and seeing how they feel. Also, don't be afraid to try on boots that are a few steps down from the top-end, they will still provide as much if not more support than your 5000's did, even when they were new.

Hope that helps

[Chadd 916]

It's not the eyelets that are eliminating the forward flex, it's the stiffness of the boot that does it.

[cooperalls 4]

I would disagree here. First of all it’s actually the opposite, the more angled the eyelet orientation is, the harder it will be to flex thru the material, so with skates getting stiffer with each generation, the engineers are fixing their own problems at making stiff skates by angling the eyelet curve at a straight line. A good example is the EQ5 and newer EQ50 skate, if you look at the pictures you'll see exactly where the skate needs to be stiff and where the second material starts to overlap - this is the most stressed area, so they put in a different material in that area. Now if you look at that skate in particular the top two eyelets you’ll see that it’s made to accommodate a wrap around your upper foot, specially the vertical cut you see on top of the EQ5 skate across the top two eylets, once it wraps the foot it will create somewhat an angular boot orientation.

As for 5000's replacement, we have to break it down to two categories 1) fit and 2) forward flex. For the same feeling as far as forward flex goes these models are somewhat similar: 8090, One95 Classic (only made for European market) Supreme One50 older model the one that has Nike Bauer logo, and the famous S9 model which is made to look like One95, T1, but in reality is based on supreme traditional construction materials.

Now as far as fit, it’s a new ball game all these are made from different last shapes, so don’t listen to anyone's opinion since they would vary on personal preference. Best bet is to go by an estimates like insole length, outsole length in contrast comparison to holder size length.....

For example, I know that a skate with a holder size 263 will be a good length for me, not to short and not too long, so that narrows it down to 6.5 D/ EE, 7D/ EE or 7.5D. I also know that in length I can squeeze into the shortest Bauer model with a 263 holder, so now I’m left with 6.5D/EE, 7D. I also know that I have narrow heel and very high instep, (need a lot of material to wrap my foot in that area) this is usually based on arch, the hiigher the arch the bigger the instep. So now I know that 6.5D will be too shallow for me. I’m now down to two sizes 6.5EE and 7D. Personally I always prefer a bigger skate with some heel slippage, but no pain, rather then a shallower boot with tighter heel and pain in the instep area whcih brings me to 7D. Also a bigger skate will give me better flex forward and has more give, of course will break down faster as well.

Cheers.

I disagree.

If the eyelets wrap around your ankle enough to inhibit forward flex, you're not in the right skate for your foot. Previous Vapor catalogs specifically state the top three eyelets are vertical to allow forward flex, and also list the area between the two zones as a "flex zone". It's up to the user to decide if it actually works, but that is its intent.

Why would you size your skate off of the holder length? The only way to properly fit skates is to put your feet inside them.

You prefer heel slippage? That's one of the single biggest factors that will decrease a skates performance.

wHATcOLOR asked what skates would be a good replacement for a Supreme 5000 and every model you suggested is either out of production, only available in Europe, or custom only, how is that helpful?

[DarkStar50 680]

I hate to break it to you but even elite figure boots use very little leather. While Klingbeil and SP Teri are among the few doing custom boots with leather, the elite figure boots use synthetics as much as the hockey companies do. The figure boot companies do it for the same reason as the hockey companies, to reduce weight and increase life of the boot(synthetics will outlast leather for durability).

As for using a holder size to help determine skate size, that theory would be of little help if you're looking at CCM boots. My size 6, D width Bauer skates always have 254 runners. I was recently using a pair of CCM U+ CL, size 6, D width. The first thing I had to do to the CCM boots was remove the size 263 holders!

Your final comment is: "So everything here is subjective." Well, I guess so..........

[Deerok 3]

DarkStar, could you elaborate?

Was it due to a mistake (that the CCM skate came with a 263 holder)?

[DarkStar50 680]

No mistake on the 263 holder on CCM's part. They fit perfectly on the sole of the size 6, D width U+ CL. The only problem was I don't skate on that size holder. I put on Tuuk LS2 in my usual size 254. Problem solved.

[Deerok 3]

Thanks Dark Star.

I appreciate the info.

[pizzakid13 5]

wouldn't the tongue be the real decider in how far forward you can flex? i mean, how tight can you really wrap around the sides?

i switched from graf 705 to bauer one 80's recently and i love them. i noticed a tiny difference in pitch, a bigger difference in side stiffness(which i really liked) but hardly anything in forward flex. great skate.

[wHATcOLOR 0]

interesting discussion, thanks for the input guys. i wasn't very clear in the original post; i'm not necessarily trying to get as close to the bauer 5000 fit as possible.. even after all these years, i'm not sure it was the right fit, some pain in forefoot, etc.. looking forward to the benefits of a new and different pair of skates. so i was more curious about why things had changed with skate design

is it fair to say that new bauers are stiffer than new grafs (assuming roughly the same placement in the lines)? trying to understand why the forward flex seemed so much easier in the grafs (and i understand forward flex in the bauer seemed tougher because of the increased stiffness in the newer boots, not the eyelet pattern/shape)

i'm going to do some reading on vapor vs supreme and see what i can learn there. thanks!

[chris322 0]

I am in the process of switching from Graf to Bauer's and the additional factor that makes a Graf feel like there is more forward flex is the pitch of the boot and the holder. The Graf 705 and G5 really put you on your toes. Combine that with a softer more traditional boot/tongue combo and the difference in forward flex makes sense. I personally want a bit of a more balanced stance. The graf's work great right out of the hole for a forward, but I don't feel as balanced in all of the other game situations. I just got some Bauer Total One's and I am going to try a slight heel lift in the insoles and see what happens.

Ultimately it seems like finding the right pair of new skates comes down to research and mostly trial and error. Thankfully the internet and ebay makes finding the right skate easier.

[shooter27 117]

is it fair to say that new bauers are stiffer than new grafs (assuming roughly the same placement in the lines)? trying to understand why the forward flex seemed so much easier in the grafs (and i understand forward flex in the bauer seemed tougher because of the increased stiffness in the newer boots, not the eyelet pattern/shape)

The reason that the Grafs feel like they have more forward flex is twofold. 1) Grafs made of leather (particularly the 7 series) are not as stiff as the new top end Bauers made of composites. 2). Grafs have a lower cut around the ankle than Bauers do, creating more forward flex.