Tabata/HIIT question

[pizzakid13 5]

i have been out of hockey for over 4 months due to elbow surgery. so, i have been keeping in shape with biking and circuit training. nothing too huge but just something to stay in shape with.

so, i have read a lot about this type of training and was wondering if you can use it for just the cardio portion? i looked at the tabata website and they were doing other strength training incorporated into the routine. now, i can do the cardio but i know i cant do 8 sets of pushups at that pace. wouldn't your body burn out well before the last minute?

[ktang 34]

You can do sets of with squats, or squats with burpees. I start with 5 sets, and go to 10 in about a month. It isn't the reps that you do in the 20 secs "on" that's important, but that you're working hard in those 20 secs (assuming 20 secs "on" and 10 secs "rest").

[pizzakid13 5]

I thought about squats also but I guess I am confusing the work rate with quality?

[IniNew 51]

Yeah, your body can burn out on it. It's not suppose to be easy. If your form breaks down too much, switch to knee pushups, or find something to do incline push-ups or wall push-ups. It's suppose to be intense, but you need to complete it.

I, with the help of a person trainer who loved tabatta, completed cycles with just about every exercise you could think of. Leg presses, DB Bench press, Skull crushers, squats, shoulder presses, and even curls. Anything that you would normally work in a hypertrophy routine is fine.

[pizzakid13 5]

ok.

i still cannot do too much strength training yet because of the elbow but i have added pushups and lat pulldowns at 1/2 the weight. so, as long as you can keep the form, you bust these out at a fast speed?

as far as just a cardio workout, are you supposed to do more than one exercise or just the single 4 minute routine with a warmup and cooldown? i did the 4 minutes on the spin bike and found it pretty easy. i felt my normal routine of 1 minute heavy hill climb to 1 minute flat at medium pace was harder. i can see sprinting working very well with this though. the problem with the spin bike is the tension needs to stay put since you are only spending 10 secs. at rest which is not enough to be turning that knob 3-4 times each way.

[IniNew 51]

I did 8 minutes of it. If that's too easy, rest for 7-10 minutes and repeat. Go as hard as you possible can on the high intervals. It's suppose to be 100%.

With strength training, my trainer wanted me to hit at least 15 reps on the first set, and then just as many as I could with good form from there on out. Sometimes that would be as low as 3-4, just whatever you can with strict form.

[Jason Harris 31]

I've used Tabata for strength training, such as "pretending" to lift weights in a hotel room, but I find twenty seconds isn't enough to fatigue the muscles in one iteration, so I'll skip the rest cycle during those occasions and go on to the next movement. But I think it helps to understand that the original intent of their experiments was to test cardiovascular results.

They tested two groups of phys ed students, one riding an exercise bike at a moderate pace for an hour -- I can't remember what the number was, but it was a set percentage of capacity -- while the second group did the twenty on / ten off at a full sprint. The results were quite interesting, especially for those who had never done HIIT. Both groups improved their aerobic capacity, although the sprinting group did better: 14% to 10%. However, only the sprinting group showed improvement with their anaerobic capacity: 28% to 0%.

If you think about, that actually makes it a must do for hockey, since hockey is completely anaerobic.

My favorite exercise to do is the recumbent bike, and I'll try to keep my revolutions per minute above a certain amount to come as close as possible to 100% effort. What I've noticed is my heart rate goes from about 130 (after my other exercising) to 165/170 by the end, so what I really think is it's not so much what you do as it is finding an exercise to get your heart rate to a maximum level for four minutes. I've done it on a treadmill also, but it's trickier. You need to set the speed very high, hold onto the rails as you jump on to start running, then let go once you've caught your balance; at twenty seconds, you jump off to the side while the machine's running at the same speed.

As for strength training, I've read most people have about sixty seconds of anaerobic capacity per muscle, so I think you'd be better off doing traditional resistance exercises, finding a weight that you can bring to failure around one minute, then go to the next exercise as quickly as possible. I've done that for years, although not as much in my mid-forties. What's interesting is the first fifty seconds (or eight to nine reps) are set up for the last ten seconds that's actually effective, so you won't be using weights that are too heavy. The benefit of that is I've never had the injuries from working out that other friends had from doing more explosive movements with heavier weights.

[pizzakid13 5]

even when you are sprinting outside on a track, you can't just stop. you have to slow down to a quick walk or jog. how the hell do you do that on a treadmill? sounds pretty dangerous.

also, i read about anaerobic a little but am not exactly sure what it is. is it your body's ability to burn calories at rest?

[IniNew 51]

In short, anaerobic activity promotes the bodies use of fast twitch muscles. By going into anaerobic (a heart rate above that of aerobic) you are building power and strength as opposed to endurance.

HIIT or Tabatta is the ideal form of cardio for a hockey player (for most anyone outside of long distance runners and cyclists) because it almost exactly replicates what you would experience in a game situation.

[pizzakid13 5]

i got it. i want to try it at the track and see how it goes with sprints.

[Jason Harris 31]

even when you are sprinting outside on a track, you can't just stop. you have to slow down to a quick walk or jog. how the hell do you do that on a treadmill? sounds pretty dangerous.

I thought so too when I heard a guy tell me he did it on a treadmill, but it's not too bad. Bear in mind that I prefer doing it on the exercise bike, but when doing it on a treadmill, stopping is the easy part -- getting back on is slightly harder.

When you stop, you grab the handrails and jump up. If you think about it, most people could just hang in that position, but you'll want to move your feet to the platform on the side and rest for the ten seconds. But the point is you can stop on a dime on a treadmill.

Restarting is trickier. If you've chosen a speed that you can run, then you're literally hitting the ground running. You push yourself up from the handrails and start sprinting as soon as your feet touch, but keep holding on until you feel balanced. That takes about a half-second to second, then you can let go and sprint the remaining nineteen seconds.

[SydNap 25]

I've been doing HIIT once a week, and I think it helps. I'll vary the work/rest ratio based on what my body is telling me that day, and I use the HIIT timer app on my droid (I like the whistle to start and stop). I'm usually between a 30-50 second run followed by a 1:30-2:30 walk. After 8-10 sprints I'm pretty fried...

[shooter27 116]

Does someone have a link that explains the 20 on/10 off procedure? Generally I do my cardio at 1 minute on/1 minute off or 30 on/30 off.

[vectoranalysisgo 3]

There are a lot of variations of interval training and a million websites that will explain it, but intervals are technically anything that looks like a "work hard, rest, work hard, rest" cycle. It's the HI (High Intensity) in HIIT that implies a key factor- it needs to be high intensity during the work phase to qualify as HIIT and thereby produce the benefits that studies have suggested you'll get from choosing HIIT over regular interval training or steady state cardio. So that's why most regimens call for 20 seconds of work- if you can keep up whatever you're doing for longer than 20 seconds, you're not working hard enough. And the 10 second rest is shorter than most other interval regimens for the same reason- to develop the anerobic system by not allowing you to dip too much into oxyen stores when you slow down and breath for a longer rest period.

That said, I only really wanted to chime in here to point out that you can find success doing HIIT (whether a 4 minute Tabata drill or 10 cycles or etc..) with almost any exercise. As a few people mentioned- in terms of training your anerobic capacity and central nervous system, it really comes down to making sure you get your heart rate up. Focusing on specific strength exercises may offer the bonus of those particular strength gains but for a short HIIT cycle you're not going to be pushing through enough reps at high enough weight or with good enough form to really be strength training at all. It's all just a way to get the heart rate up, and a lot of strength based exercises are good at that, so you'll see lots of examples that call for squats or squat jumps or pushups... but you can obviously get the same effect from sprinting and other exercises. I like to do it with a jump rope because it's cheap and mobile- jump as hard and fast as you can, then go slow, repeat. Or, instead of hard/fast, you can aim for double/triple jumps... which wear you out just as much. I also like a row machine set to max resistance because you can pull hard for a work interval and then just slow down and 'not try' for the rest interval.

Anyway, any exercise you can do to get your heart rate up will get the job done if you're looking for the cardio/anerobic gains from HIIT. I've seen improvement from almost every exercise I've used as long as I was doing it consistently.

[IniNew 51]

HIIT with strength training is not intended for strength gains, but hypertrophy and endurance.

[pizzakid13 5]

is there any reason you cant do both HIIT and regular cardio?

example: i like to ride my bike to the gym. it takes about 10 minutes. gets the heartrate up and muscles warm. i go right to the treadmill and run at a moderate pace for 5 minutes. then, i bump up the pace for 2 minutes, another bump for 2 minutes and one last minute at maybe 75% rate. a single minute of slow-down jog and right to the spin bike for the HIIT.

[Jason Harris 31]

You can do both, but they'd kind of fulfill different functions.

I'm trying to get back into shape after being very inconsistent with exercise during my mid-forties. Earlier in the summer, I had more time and was ending each workout with four minutes of sprints; as a result, I felt strong while playing hockey, even though it was mostly as goalie. At the same time, I need to drop weight, something that is better accomplished with thirty minutes at the right pace on any number of cardio machines. In terms of aerobic or anaerobic fitness, the thirty minutes at a lesser pace won't be as effective as the Tabata, but it will help with fat burning without stressing the body too much to cut into recovery time, so I'll do my thirty minutes, then hop on the exercise bike to finish up with Tabata.

[ktang 34]

OP: research the concept of periodization. The idea is that it's better to improve one area of fitness at a time, instead of multiple areas simultaneously. HIIT would be anaerobic, whereas "regular" cardio would be O2. Both are needed for hockey, but anaerobic is more important.

"Regular" cardio is thought of to be catabolic, so it's usually done just before the season starts after the hypertrophy, maximal strength, power, and anaerobic phases of training.

For us, the anaerobic training could be done on ice after some skating skills work.

[pizzakid13 5]

ok, so you are saying stick with one or the other.

as an example, what would be your HIIT workout for cardio only? is 4 minutes really enough including the warmup and cooldown?

[Jason Harris 31]

I think the best apparatus to sprint without hurting yourself is a stationary bike, and I prefer the recumbent (legs extended) versus the upright, because it seems to work out the legs and glutes more.

The four minutes does not include warm up or cool down, but I generally do this at the end of a weights workout, so my body is already warm. If you wanted to only do the Tabata, you could add a minute for warm up to decrease the chance of pulling anything. I've never worried about cool down; as soon as I'm done, I walk to the locker room, drink a chocolate milk or eat an orange, shower and change -- that's my cool down!

Four minutes works. This isn't a case of "If some is good, more is better." Sure, maybe it's possible that six minutes is better, or even nine, but there's no doubt that there would be a point when doing too much would cut into its effectiveness, so why add more time when the four minutes has been measured to work? Remember, you're supposed to go all out. Not a near sprint, but a sprint. If you use the bike, pay attention to the revolutions per minute, because that helps you maintain your pace. Each manufacturer's bike is different, but you'll probably be doing somewhere between 125-150 RPM's. And try to track your heart rate if possible, since that's really the whole point. When I started working out harder again this summer, I was getting my heart rate over 170 by the end of the four minutes. Now I'm hitting around 165, but I'm spinning at roughly the same RPM's, if not one or two more per minute, so I'm assuming I've become more fit. Still, if my heart rate dropped to 145, I'd take that as a sign that I'm not giving enough effort.

Finally, I've heard there are Tabata timer apps, but I made my own. My first one had one song with a driving beat, plus a countdown between songs, but I found I was starting to anticipate the end of the twenty seconds, so I was relaxing slightly. I then created a second with eight songs and the countdown, but even now there's a temptation to relax at the end because I know the snippet well enough, so one day I'll get around to making a couple more just to not fall into the trap of cheating.

[jds 20]

And try to track your heart rate if possible, since that's really the whole point. When I started working out harder again this summer, I was getting my heart rate over 170 by the end of the four minutes. Now I'm hitting around 165, but I'm spinning at roughly the same RPM's, if not one or two more per minute, so I'm assuming I've become more fit. Still, if my heart rate dropped to 145, I'd take that as a sign that I'm not giving enough effort.

HR monitors are ideal for this type of workout. Most people don't go hard enough when they are supposed to and easy enough when they are supposed to-they just stick in that middle ground that works a bit aerobic and a bit anaerobic but neither one substantially. 100%, if you can hit it for real (as a safety measure your brain is wired to shut you down before you redline too hard. Takes lots of practice to overcome this instinct), or even 95% feels like hell. When your HR at the same effort is lower it is usually a good sign of becoming more fit. However, if you are trying to push yourself to that high HR and you are not even getting close, that could be a sign of overtraining and a good time to call it a day.

[Jason Harris 31]

That's a good point about the overtraining, because initially I thought I must have been cheating/relaxing/whatever, so I tired to go even faster. But after a couple of more times I realized I was going at a faster pace, yet not getting as high a heart rate, so I assumed I was becoming fitter.

Regarding the heart monitor, the good news is a lot of the newer cardio machines have the sensors built in. I have no idea how these compare to the chest monitors, but they should at least be accurate if one uses the same machine each time.

[pizzakid13 5]

Do you take your heart rate manually or use the machines built-ins?

Lastly, do you burn more fat with aerobic or anaerobic?

[Jason Harris 31]

I monitor through the machines' built-ins.

Based on the speeds of the "fat burning" cycles in the machines -- which is fairly slow -- I'm pretty sure that you'd burn more fat with aerobic, while you'd gain more fitness with the anaerobic of the Tabata.

[jds 20]

Do you take your heart rate manually or use the machines built-ins?

Lastly, do you burn more fat with aerobic or anaerobic?

You burn a higher percentage of fat calories during aerobic exercise BUT you burn more calories with anaerobic. So let's say you do an easy aerobic mile jog that burns 100 calories. 65% percent of them are from fat which is 65 calories. If you do intervals where you may only burn 35 % of your calories from fat but the workout burns 400 calories then you end up burning 140 fat calories. So yes the percentage of energy from fat is higher but the total yield is lower. Look at sprinters-they are super lean. The fat burning zone is just something that exercise machine manufacturers tout since it is usually what most people are using the machines for and it is an easier pace which appeals to most people. There is also the belief that intense activity revs the metabolism up and it remains there for a period of time after the activity. Since while we are at rest we are aerobic, we would continue to burn some fat after the exercise (though not really much). Between aerobic and anaerobic training is what is often referred to as "threshold" training where you are at an intensity that is around 85% of max HR. Can't do it forever like aerobic but aren't limited to only a minute or two like anaerobic. Here you will find a decent balance of aerobic and anaerobic gains plus you are still burning a good number of fat calories and you can do it longer than pure sprints.