Is So-And-So A Hall Of Famer? The Water Cooler Thread

[Jason Harris 31]

I'm not sure whether this overlaps with "The Retirement Thread," because I didn't quite see a thread for discussing whether particular active players are on pace to be Hall Of Famers.

The one that got me thinking about this is Chara. I've read that he will probably play until 40, which would give him another 300-400 games, but it will be a push for him to even break the top 45 scorers among defensemen (528 points is the current threshold for 50), plus he's only 41st in plus-minus. But he's a bit like Paul Molitor in baseball -- he's clearly played his best hockey in his thirties -- and, according to polls of players, he is considered the top shutdown defenseman in the league.

The B's look like they have a good nucleus, so there's an outside chance that he'd be a two-time Cup winning captain.

I say yes, but I recognize it would take people voting him in for the nuances of his game, and not for the numbers.

[IPv6Freely 2094]

I'd say yes to Chara.

I'm curious what you all think about Selanne. HOF'er?

[team50 20]

I'd say yes to Chara.

I'm curious what you all think about Selanne. HOF'er?

No question in my mind about Selanne. He's in.

[IPv6Freely 2094]

No question in my mind about Selanne. He's in.

I agree.

[Jason Harris 31]

I think Selanne's a no-brainer. He's two points away from tying Trottier for 15th place all-time, but it's interesting to see his career enveloped the "dead ball" era. He had 76 goals as a rookie, a couple of plus 50 years, then his scoring went down, before having plus 40 years after the rule changes from the lockout.

[Chadd 916]

Chara is one of those guys that will be measured in cups and Norris trophies when it comes time for HHoF consideration. How he ends his career will have a big impact as well. If he hangs on like Chelios, it may take longer for him to get in. If he retires while still near the top of his game like Lidstrom, I think he will get in faster.

[chippa13 1844]

Chara will probably wait a year or two. Selanne is a guaranteed first ballot inductee.

[chk hrd 164]

IMO Chara is over rated, there are other players who haven't made it in that should before him.

[Jason Harris 31]

In what way is he overrated? His reputation is on defense, and I know last year the other players voted him "toughest to go against." I have no idea if he won that in other years, as I never saw the results.

If he hangs on like Chelios, it may take longer for him to get in. If he retires while still near the top of his game like Lidstrom, I think he will get in faster.

That's interesting you say that, because I've always thought of Chelios as a first ballot HOFer, and I've thought his longevity adds to his case.

[Chadd 916]

I'm a huge fan of Chelios, I'm just saying that being a punch line for the last couple years of your career could potentially impact HHoF voting. If you look at the bulk of his career Chelios deserves to be a first ballot inductee. If you focus on the last couple years, minor league stints and healthy scratches at the end, then it could take a couple years to get in.

[Morten 2]

Mike Modano: yes, best modern american player, cup and olympic silver

Niklas Lidstrom: yes, triple gold
Kris Draper: yes 4x cup, WC gold
Eric Lindros: yes, ever debated, but still when? Olympic gold, records and stats
Mark Recchi: yes(I guess), 3x cup
Peter Forsberg: yes, triple gold

Scott Niedemeyer: yes, triple gold

Brendan Shanahan: yes, triple gold

Chris Chelios: yes, Olympic silver, bucket load of games

Anymore?

[chippa13 1844]

Draper is a stretch. Checking wingers aren't filling the Hall.

[Chadd 916]

Mike Modano: yes, best modern american player, cup and olympic silver

Niklas Lidstrom: yes, triple gold

Kris Draper: yes 4x cup, WC gold

Eric Lindros: yes, ever debated, but still when? Olympic gold, records and stats

Mark Recchi: yes(I guess), 3x cup

Peter Forsberg: yes, triple gold

Scott Niedemeyer: yes, triple gold

Brendan Shanahan: yes, triple gold

Chris Chelios: yes, Olympic silver, bucket load of games

Anymore?

International success is not much of a criteria for guys that spend most of their career in the NHL. Lindros has numbers that compare well against Neely, who was recently inducted.

[RadioGaGa 162]

I know this is mostly a player discussion...but please put Pat Burns in the HOF!!!!!

[Jason Harris 31]

Burns is an interesting candidate. He's 18th in games coached and 16th in wins, but not among the top 20 in winning percentage. On the other hand, coaches are generally hired to take over losing organizations, so it's not unexpected that his winning percentage would be lower. He won three Jack Adams Awards for coach of the year, plus a Stanley Cup. I'd say he's on the cusp, mainly because I think of HOF coaches as having more championships.

On a different topic, what do people think of longevity? Some people ding it, because it allows slightly above players on a seasonal basis to put up greatly above average career numbers. I understand that thinking, but it doesn't bother me that someone accrued his numbers over time; very few players have been good enough or healthy enough to play in the twenty year vicinity, so that's part of what made a particular player special.

Conversely, does lack of seasons matter when injuries robbed a player of a normal career? In other words, would Sydney Crosby be a HOFer if one more hit ended his career this season?

[Chadd 916]

Conversely, does lack of seasons matter when injuries robbed a player of a normal career? In other words, would Sydney Crosby be a HOFer if one more hit ended his career this season?

You have to use Neely as the poster boy for short careers, now that he is in.

[RadioGaGa 162]

Bure....another short career HOF'er

[wrangler 157]

Burns is an interesting candidate. He's 18th in games coached and 16th in wins, but not among the top 20 in winning percentage. On the other hand, coaches are generally hired to take over losing organizations, so it's not unexpected that his winning percentage would be lower. He won three Jack Adams Awards for coach of the year, plus a Stanley Cup. I'd say he's on the cusp, mainly because I think of HOF coaches as having more championships.

On a different topic, what do people think of longevity? Some people ding it, because it allows slightly above players on a seasonal basis to put up greatly above average career numbers. I understand that thinking, but it doesn't bother me that someone accrued his numbers over time; very few players have been good enough or healthy enough to play in the twenty year vicinity, so that's part of what made a particular player special.

Conversely, does lack of seasons matter when injuries robbed a player of a normal career? In other words, would Sydney Crosby be a HOFer if one more hit ended his career this season?

That's basically the question of the critical criterion -- quality of player, or quality of career? Does the Hall give the voters any guidance on this?

[Jason Harris 31]

I don't know, Cole. I've met a few of the players who are on the committee, but I've never spoken them about anything more than their fantasy football leagues....

Orr might be the biggest example of a player getting in after a shortened career, but I think he illustrates that they have to have meteoric stats in that case. In other words, burned very brightly for a short time. So Neely was a definite to me, as well as Crosby would be, but I'm not sure about Forsberg, even though I loved his play. We have to factor in that he played during the dead ball era, because only two years over 100 points doesn't pop out.

[wrangler 157]

Sounds like a sliding scale, then. There are still a lot of people that consider Orr the greatest player of all time, though his career was rather short. We can put him at one end of the scale.

[pizzakid13 5]

draper? you cant possibly be serious.

[Jason Harris 31]

Sounds like a sliding scale, then. There are still a lot of people that consider Orr the greatest player of all time, though his career was rather short. We can put him at one end of the scale.

And I'm one of 'em!

[wrangler 157]

I'm not arguing.

[Chadd 916]

Just to keep the debate going:

Chris Pronger

John Leclair

Jaromir Jagr

Dominik Hasek

[chippa13 1844]

Yes

Maybe

Yes

Yes