Ice Hockey - Possible to align Graf holders/blades like the MLX skates

[Vet88 674]

2.4mm is quite a big jump and would have a huge impact on what he feels under his feet. Change is always resisted, I'd try just a 0.8mm shim first, let him skate in that for a month or so and then add another if you can see he is standing and skating more upright on the blade.

There are many articles / comments here and on the web about skaters leaving 1, 2 or even 3 eyelets undone, european skaters used to do this a lot as a training tool. The looser skate forces you to use the muscles in the sides of your foot to hold yourself upright on the skates instead of relying on the boot. I've used it as a training tool for inline, will give it a go for ice when I manage to convert my inline skills across to ice ie skate more and practice hard.

[smu 29]

Thanks for the update. Honestly, I'm not terribly surprised. One argument could be made that he's adapted to the way his skates currently are and trying to "fix it" at this point will cause problems. He might adapt in the long run though. Still, shimming seems like an inappropriate fix if the weight is not centered over the blade.

***If adaption can be made fine, but he could have a far better game if he was centered over his blades

On related notes.....

First, last week, after getting into Makos and still having somewhat of an issue where I "roll over" the inside edge (pronate if you will), and having Oldtrainer guy say blade alignment was a simple issue, I asked the guy who sharpens my skates and does repair work on skates if he aligned blades. He asked me why and I told him. He held up the skates, looked the blades and said, "the blades are right where they're supposed to be". I am becoming less and less impressed with this guy and he is the go to guy everybody recommends in my area.

***Oldtrarainer is right and as I have said before, it is hard to have just a "best skate sharpener" understand what an alignment is and does.

He agreed with my assessment that a medial shim or high arched orthotic (superfeet) for my flat footed son would be the exact wrong thing to do. in my case it was less clear, but in both cases he said blade alignment is the first thing he would recommend. He had it done for his inlines. Unfortunately, he had his work done by machine shop due to the nature of the inline boot/holder system. So, probably not an option as a resource for me.

***Good figure skates and probably speed skates need the alignment done and I do see where they offer kits to align inline skates

There are shops that can give you a proper alignment more so in the highly populated urban areas. It took me 3 years to find someone who knew what I was talking about and had aligned skates before. I hope to have mine done and finally have some good hockey games again. I have it upstairs, but it does not translate to the feet if you have to worry about balance etc all the time.

Alan

[AfftonDad 88]

2.4mm is quite a big jump and would have a huge impact on what he feels under his feet. Change is always resisted, I'd try just a 0.8mm shim first, let him skate in that for a month or so and then add another if you can see he is standing and skating more upright on the blade.

There are many articles / comments here and on the web about skaters leaving 1, 2 or even 3 eyelets undone, european skaters used to do this a lot as a training tool. The looser skate forces you to use the muscles in the sides of your foot to hold yourself upright on the skates instead of relying on the boot. I've used it as a training tool for inline, will give it a go for ice when I manage to convert my inline skills across to ice ie skate more and practice hard.

I took them out already and didn't put any back in. I would probably be willing to try 0.8mm except for the fact that the guy said he had to use copper rivets to put them back on because he was having trouble getting the regular type rivets to stay. He said the copper rivets are a little bigger or something. Not knowing anything about what he is talking about, my concern is that the procedure somehow "messed something up" on the inside and he had to use the copper rivets to compensate for it. It is my understanding that copper rivets are better anyway, so I don't have a problem with that, I'm just concerned that each attempt will continue to make things worse until the skates are too messed up to put holders back on.

[Tyler Roy 86]

It wont weaken the outsole of the skate.

arcsince,

I must have read you message too fast the last time, glad I am reading again to digest more info and your material on the Graf realignment with the two slotted unused holes front and back on the holder. I don't have the bottom of the Graf holder in front of me, but I can remember those slots. Are you saying that there are spare holes apart from the four elongated ones? I take it there would be posts under these

My guy has the proper posts to set in and allow for the same attachment method, but the others would have to be removed and replaced on a slightly different plane. Epoxy is used to fill in the holes, but would not this weaken the sole? Thanks for the advice though.

BTY I had a few sharp emails with the former manager at Graf - SF - before he relented and gave me a third pair of skates. It was funny I measured my boot and blade angle and it was out by 4%, I gave them back to Graf and they said it was 1% and withing their tolerances! I did get my skates though and then flipped them for the Bauer.

Thanks again - Alan

[smu 29]

It wont weaken the outsole of the skate.

Thanks again Tyler, makes me feel more comfortable!

BTW, I spoke to a local Graf dealer yesterday and he tells that the new holders will be anchored with rivets and not screws, a surprise to me and may not be factual

Alan

[smcgreg 81]

It wont weaken the outsole of the skate.

Tyler,

Since you seem to speak with authority about drilling holes and weakening the outsole, in general, how much space is required between the original hole and the new hole to ensue integrity of the outsole? In other words, if I want to move my holder an 1/8" by drilling new holes, will that be sufficient distance from the old holes? Would I need to go more, say a minimum of 1/4"?

Thanks

[smu 29]

For those of you that want to know more about this, the following article is about the best I have ever come across that explains it well.

http://www.ladyinredcreations.com/Ankles_Down.htm

I wanted to ask the question but always for get. I do get some help from the orthotics can someone categorically explain why they don't or not supposed to work in simple language. I have read what is on the site "ankles down", but I feel stupid. I don't understand it. And if this is the case I will have to move the holder, but where? Get the right skate in a Jr Graf and move the blade and that answer has been given or purchase a pair of VH. But, please, if anyone can, why I should stop trying to fix my skate from the inside. At least I can make a business proposal to my wife why it more cost effective to not throw money away on orthotics and put it towards a new pair or a proper fix. Thanks- Alan

[Vet88 674]

Think of yourself walking on tight rope instead of on an ice blade, now stick the orthotic insert to the bottom of your foot. The insert has nothing under it therefore it can't support your foot. Yes you do have the base of the boot but because the base does not sit on the ground all that happens is that the base drops a little lower on the side of the insert ie an orthotic can sometimes make a pronation problem worse... If you want, we can use the analogy of the tight rope again, instead of standing on the tight rope directly this time you are balanced on a thin piece of wood that is balanced on the tight rope. All the orthotic does is push the piece of wood downward slightly on the side the orthotic is on.

This is an oversimplified example but it is the core reason why orthotics don't really work in an ice skate.

I'm not knocking orthotics, some people here have had success with them but I suspect that they only needed a minor adjustment and I always wonder how much better they could be if they could move the holder.

Speed and figure have dealt with this for a long time, for some reason ice and inline hockey (except MLX) seems to stick its head in the sand and refuse to deal with it.

[smu 29]

Think of yourself walking on tight rope instead of on an ice blade, now stick the orthotic insert to the bottom of your foot. The insert has nothing under it therefore it can't support your foot. Yes you do have the base of the boot but because the base does not sit on the ground all that happens is that the base drops a little lower on the side of the insert ie an orthotic can sometimes make a pronation problem worse... If you want, we can use the analogy of the tight rope again, instead of standing on the tight rope directly this time you are balanced on a thin piece of wood that is balanced on the tight rope. All the orthotic does is push the piece of wood downward slightly on the side the orthotic is on.

This is an oversimplified example but it is the core reason why orthotics don't really work in an ice skate.

I'm not knocking orthotics, some people here have had success with them but I suspect that they only needed a minor adjustment and I always wonder how much better they could be if they could move the holder. Speed and figure have dealt with this for a long time, for some reason ice and inline hockey (except MLX) seems to stick its head in the sand and refuse to deal with it.

Thanks Vet, thought I would reply on the forum so all can see. By the way, don't even mention the MLX skate, it makes me sick to my stomache that Easton bought them out and left aa fantastic option behind - the movement of the holders. Anyway, I am starting to see your analogy of the tightrope, but I am still a litle dense, but will but this done on paper later and get to understand it, but it does appear you have a good opinion. That brings me to the shimming the later side of the boot/holder. Is this the same? I have had 3 mm wedge (worked) in my right at one point, but the angle of the blade was way of perpindicular. Would this be a problem on the "tightrope"? I am beginning to hope for a holder movement or a pair of VH if I can justify the money. Either way it is goig to cost!

Thanks - Alan

[Vet88 674]

Wedges do work. They have the advantage of been able to be fitted to any skate by someone who knows what they are doing but it does cost to get the right sized wedge in place (repeated cost of reriveting to change the wedge) and the trade off of getting the holder as vertical as possible versus foot alignment. I tried them and they didn't work for me, imho I think this option is more suited for figure skaters versus hockey players.

The cheapest option is the 2nd hand or on clearance Graf route, find yourself a pair of Graf boots that will fit you and then spend time adjusting the holders. It isn't hard to adjust the holders yourself. The only downside is you have to purchase the higher end Grafs (in junior sizes at least) to make sure you get the holder that is attached with screws, for example look at these:

http://www.hockeymonkey.com/graf-hockey-skates-g75-ultra-xi-jr.html

Shifting the holder doesn't stop you from profiling the blade and/or adding shims to change the pitch of the boot. And if you don't like them you can always recover some of your costs by putting on a clean holder and reselling them.

[smu 29]

Wedges do work. They have the advantage of been able to be fitted to any skate by someone who knows what they are doing but it does cost to get the right sized wedge in place (repeated cost of reriveting to change the wedge) and the trade off of getting the holder as vertical as possible versus foot alignment. I

The cheapest option is the 2nd hand or on clearance Graf route, find yourself a pair of Graf boots that will fit you and then spend time adjusting the holders. It isn't hard to adjust the holders yourself. The only downside is you have to purchase the higher end Grafs (in junior sizes at least) to make sure you get the holder that is attached with screws, for example look at these:

http://www.hockeymonkey.com/graf-hockey-skates-g75-ultra-xi-jr.html

I agree wedges work, that's what started me on this 6 year ordeal of learnin all I could o my problem with skating. Up until the shim was put on the outside I was blaming everybody including the skate maunfacturer (they deserve it anyway), but are not always the cause. I understand that it is a hit and miss, each time it will cost me about $30 for one skate and that is getting my skate guy giving me a good price, then there is the adjustment phase! More money for 2 skates. Those damn copper rivits are needed and leed to a higher cost. I hesitate to order from HockeyMonkey for the reasons indicated before, that is, you never know how the holders were put on. If I had the money or will at some point the VH skate seems very attractive and even the Junior I am told is $800. I have taken a look at my own skates once again and I see lots of space for movement and it surprised me! The expert I had last year said he coud not move the blade. Perhaps I can 1) persue this course with someong that know what hey are doing 2) 2nd hand Grafs (I could not get the proper skate in Halifax last year or I would have bought it) off Kijjii 3). I believe I have someone out of the GTA that can shift the my holders, maybe that is my best bet, but I am feeling my age over the last couple of years and would love to have those VH skates. Anymore info you have keep it coming, I am not playing in the Summer so I have some time. I am going out today to see what the LHSs have and their expertise (none) so it seems. I have to teach them!

Kind Regards,

Alan

[Vet88 674]

I checked the Graf locator site, http://grafcanada.com/where-to-buy/, and there are 8 Graf dealers in Halifax. Ring around, see if one has a good range in size in junior skates and any clearance stock and if they are willing to sit down with you and work out what fit you need. Then if they have a boot that is suited to you (fit and the holder must screw on) ask to have a hunt through their inventory looking for a boot that bests suits you (holder mounted towards the inside). At least at the end of this you will know what Graf boot you can fit and if the dealers don't have anything suitable then you can hunt the 2nd hand market or online stores.

[smu 29]

I checked the Graf locator site, http://grafcanada.com/where-to-buy/, and there are 8 Graf dealers in Halifax. Ring around, see if one has a good range in size in junior skates and any clearance stock and if they are willing to sit down with you and work out what fit you need. Then if they have a boot that is suited to you (fit and the holder must screw on) ask to have a hunt through their inventory looking for a boot that bests suits you (holder mounted towards the inside). At least at the end of this you will know what Graf boot you can fit and if the dealers don't have anything suitable then you can hunt the 2nd hand market or online stores.

Vet,

I appreciate all the work you have done for me and others, including smcgreg! I decided to make a trip to some LHSs today and called first, glad I did. They all tell me the Graf skate is dying because the kids are the ones that drive the market and are looking for what the pros wear. I only reached 4 stores on the phone but all had the same story and you will recall I could not get the skate I wanted last year. No one was able to give me a shipment time. I am only seeing your Graf locator now from post and I hit 4 of them all with the same comments about the downturn in the Graf Skate. Perhaps it is just an East Coast problem. But, HockeyMonkey seems to be unloading many Grafs! One salesman here indicated that they may stop ordering all together. from Graf. With this in mind and since I just put a new blade on the skate (used twice), I had a LHS give me new Superfeet (hope that's the problem as they worked once), remolding and profilling just so I could get a couple of games of hockey in over the next couple of weeks and see how the Superfeet go. If that works I can start next year with the same skates, but look to perhaps purchase custom skates after that and I will call it a Christmas present. If the Superfeet don't do the job I get my money back for those and I am then only out $20 for profiling.

How does this sound?

Alan

[Vet88 674]

I wish superfeet was the answer but at the end of the day they suffer the same problem as any orthotic, there is nothing under the sides of the boot that give the orthotic a chance to hold your foot up. I do use them in my inlines but that is more for comfort than correcting a pronation problem.

There is another option you can go if you like the boot you are in or want to use something else other than Grafs. Looking at the many pairs of skates/holders in my household, LS2, LS3, E-Pro, Razor holders all have room for sideways movement inwards of between 1 - 2mm. This distance is generally all you need to correct your pronation. Get the rivets removed and fit t-nuts and screws to mount the holder with. Now you can adjust the mounting of the holder (by filing away at the edges of the mounting holes as we have previously discussed) in your own time and get it right for your feet. Fitting t-nuts is not a big issue for someone who knows what they are doing, many ice boots are converted to inline using this method, you just have to find someone who knows what they are doing.