Ice Hockey - Possible to align Graf holders/blades like the MLX skates

[smu 29]

Does anyone know any reason why I couldn't take out the rivets on my son's EQ-50s and replace them with some kind of T-bolt setup so that they would end up being removable like Grafs? I would like to experiment with some shims on my son's skates for his pronation but I don't want to have to re-rivet on each trial. If the answer is yes, that would be do-able, does anyone have any suggestions on a source of such hardware?

BTW... on the topic of the original post... around three or four years ago a Graf sales rep told me that they were going to start using slotted holders (and that in fact some of their models were already being made with them), but I guess he was in error or that it never happened.

I did see that one time not too long ago and still possibly so that Graf has four unused holes in each skate that are slotted, why?

I recently spoke to a Graf Rep in a large Sports chain store. I was there to see the new Graf skate but they are not available until May!

We discussed the buy out of MLX and that Easton did not incorporate the key ingredient that I wanted - the ability to slide the holder over. The rep understood the concept, but made no mention of past or future Graf skates having this.

I have seen patents that have various and great ideas that could give us this ability to shift our holders. Why we don't have it is all economics in my opinion. If most people don't need this extra feature and others get by, or struggle with what God gave them, then why cater to the few.

I am surprised though at the feedback I am getting with this thread. it seems to be more than a just a few suffering like me!

Alan

[IPv6Freely 2093]

Read my earlier post to see if you over-pronate (70% over-pronate - does your skate roll inward, pronation, our miss placed weight, is forcing the blade that way)

According to everything I'm reading, I under-pronate (aka supinate). Not over-pronate.

[smu 29]

According to everything I'm reading, I under-pronate (aka supinate). Not over-pronate.

I don't believe this is a good graphical representation of pronation. It does not indicate which foot it is. I am positive we are looking at the right foot, but, it is hard to tell. If so, the right foot has that inward drop and bulging medial malleolus (ankle bone).

I came across this same figure a few weeks ago and had to look hard and long at it.

I am sure you can find many examples of the pronation problems in your searches, but I am sure we are being fooled, at first glance, with this one!

Alan

[IPv6Freely 2093]

I don't believe this is a good graphical representation of pronation. It does not indicate which foot it is. I am positive we are looking at the right foot, but, it is hard to tell. If so, the right foot has that inward drop and bulging medial malleolus (ankle bone).

I came across this same figure a few weeks ago and had to look hard and long at it.

I am sure you can find many examples of the pronation problems in your searches, but I am sure we are being fooled, at first glance, with this one!

Alan

Not fooled. All three are the right foot. The one on the right is how I am (though not nearly as much as in the photo). When I run, most of my weight is on the outside of my foot. This is why it feels like my skate blades point inward and the blade feels like its under my big toe rather than in the middle of my foot.

[smu 29]

Not fooled. All three are the right foot. The one on the right is how I am (though not nearly as much as in the photo). When I run, most of my weight is on the outside of my foot. This is why it feels like my skate blades point inward and the blade feels like its under my big toe rather than in the middle of my foot.

You can see where there could be confusion with this graphic, but as you say you fit the one on the right then you certainly must (over) supinate.

Regards - Alan

[IPv6Freely 2093]

I don't think its a huge deal for me, I only really noticed it last game.

[smcgreg 81]

According to everything I'm reading, I under-pronate (aka supinate). Not over-pronate.

Right, which is why I used the term "roll inward" for myself as opposed to my son who is a pronator with flat feet. I am the same as you with high arches and my skate rolls inward on the right foot. This is really not "pronating" per se, and I certainly don't pronate walking or running. But my weight alignment is different on skates so that my foot falls inward. The end result is the same as with my son who really does pronate both biologically, in running shoes and in skates.

This was the heart of my query up the thread because for the two of us, the fix should be different aside from blade alignment. In other words, for me, a high arched insole such as superfeet (actually my own orthotics are much more arched than superfeet) supports my arch and keeps it from falling inward.

On the other hand, with my son, who is flat footed, the superfeet didnt' support the arch, and with most flat footed persons, I don't think it should. In most flat footed individuals, high arched orthotics generally just cause pain, as they did with him, and exacerbated the problem.

At the end of the day though, blade alignment would probably fix it for both of us. But it's not the same underlying biological issue, so, not really a "pronation" in my case, and your Optimus.

[IPv6Freely 2093]

I guess the difference is that my foot falls outward. As in, I skate with my feet the same shape (but obviously not as pronounced) as your feet would be if you were standing on a sphere.

[smu 29]

I guess the difference is that my foot falls outward. As in, I skate with my feet the same shape (but obviously not as pronounced) as your feet would be if you were standing on a sphere.

Good point! You mean over supination is like standing on a ball and over pronation is like standing in a bowl!

[IPv6Freely 2093]

Good point! You mean over supination is like standing on a ball and over pronation is like standing in a bowl!

Exactly! That's probably a great way to describe it. It's not an easy thing to describe.

[AfftonDad 88]

I just had the LHS put 2.4mm of shim on the lateral sides of my son's skates. I hope I didn't just screw him up. I'll find out tonight.

[smcgreg 81]

I just had the LHS put 2.4mm of shim on the lateral sides of my son's skates. I hope I didn't just screw him up. I'll find out tonight.

Did he skate on them before the game?

Regardless, let us know how it goes.

[AfftonDad 88]

He has a practice tonight... game tomorrow morning (but it's just laid-back spring hockey). I'm not going to tell him about the change so it won't mess with his head (he's 11). It actually has gotten a lot better on it's own over the years but it's still pretty noticeable.

[smu 29]

I just had the LHS put 2.4mm of shim on the lateral sides of my son's skates. I hope I didn't just screw him up. I'll find out tonight.

I take it he knows what he is doing.

Mine was 3mm, on the lateral side (back and front) of right foot 3 years ago.

Hope your son has some good luck, I am hoping for the best!

Alan

[Larry54 243]

Does anyone know any reason why I couldn't take out the rivets on my son's EQ-50s and replace them with some kind of T-bolt setup so that they would end up being removable like Grafs? I would like to experiment with some shims on my son's skates for his pronation but I don't want to have to re-rivet on each trial. If the answer is yes, that would be do-able, does anyone have any suggestions on a source of such hardware?

BTW... on the topic of the original post... around three or four years ago a Graf sales rep told me that they were going to start using slotted holders (and that in fact some of their models were already being made with them), but I guess he was in error or that it never happened.

When I converted a pair of skates to roller, I used 6-32 screws and T-nuts. Then when winter came around I put the blades back on for one more season using the T-nuts. I just had to enlarge the original holes in the boot slightly but it worked out very well. The only downside is that the T-nuts and screws were slightly heavier than rivets but the difference is really minimal. Just don't overtighten the screws, and use blue loc-tite to prevent them from loosening.

[arcsinice 6]

To SMU..............

Blade misalignment is more common than most realize, principally on product MADE IN ASIA, starting with blade curvature as per the manner by which rivets are placed into the sole...... Up one side, down the next in about 5 seconds no less! When a competent shop installs new holders or re-installs holders I can assure you they do not do that! As you should v. well know they start on one side with one rivet and delicately at that thank you and then immediately go to the other side and so on and so forth..............

A number of competent shops would love it if a given boot mfgr. were to simply sell the boot (at least higher end models that are a financial rip-off, but I digress) without the holder/blade so the shop could then install same but that ain't gonna happen. So buyers are dealt what buyers are dealt and that's that. Always visually check the straightness of a blade before you buy...............

When a blade is not aligned or if it is curved, the obvious has to happen. Don't accept. Open another box or have the shop order another set. I know, this could take all day............. But when it comes to lateral re-alignment, this is not for the do it yourselfer or first timer per se.

MLX (RIP) design not only had bolts that were, like Graf, screwed into dedicated bolt holes - that are threaded by the way, MLX also had an outer flange plate which is critical to their moveable design. Graf do not have any provision for this as same has never been part of their offering. Graf tend to do overwhelmingly beyond superlative finish work (in additional to their non pareil comfort), far beyond that of anyone else but I have seen a Calgary Graf boot/holder/runner that should have been thrown back in their face. Phenomenal product, nasty senior management who know me and hate me as I have exposed their hubris and indifference to their face for what they are. I hope this has finally caught up with them as they know how screwed up they are management-wise.

Anyway............. So, the notion of taking a Dremel and elongating the typical four front and four rear holes of a Cobra 3000 or 5000 holder to appropriate potential straight lateral or yawed lateral realignment might sound good in theory but you are never going to know until you try and worst case scenario, things do not work out and you'll be looking at another set of holders. Under no circumstances try to appropriate a fix via the sole holes!

The Cobra 5000 holder does have technical provision for eight holes in the front (one set are elongated) and six in the rear with one set elongated. If you have the 5000 then you know I mean. Graf bolt the 5000 at their Calgary factory with the aforementioned four in the front and four in the rear, leaving the others open inclusive of the four elongated. The elongated holes versus that of the standard holes are essentially 70% greater in length or about an additional 2/16ths which is in fact quite a lot.

Trying to affect a flange (between the bolt and holder from the outside) will not be easy as same I can see in my mind's eye. The trick....., try finding one if need be. Graf's bolts do have a "flange" at the base and I would see if that is enough which I hope it is. Again, you'll never know until you try. May I strongly suggest directly speaking with someone in your neck of the woods who are a competent FIGURE SKATING shop (not run of the mill) operation who know full well just how crucial blade alignment is on any skate, above all figure skates - the real high end stuff. A simple shift of no more than 1/16th of an inch for figure skaters is sometimes all that is needed to set things right and that many times is only in either the toe or heel, not both, so a competent individual whose ear you could catch knows well how critical this is of which there are not that many. Also, not dismissing alignment but I'd be curious what your blade radius and hollow is............. Graf provide an 11 foot standard factory radius on their 254 and up blades and while there is no magic number on that in terms of radius length which varies depending upon weight and need as per ultimate custom radius (via template only!!!) which I highly recommend - again, only by a shop that has templates, never, ever freehand, many skaters today tend to be on too short a radius and way too deep a hollow. No magic number in hollow either but if you are deeper than 12/16's, try jumping up to that and possibly even more flat, 13/16's, 14/16's............ Trust me, flatter IS better. The two create more stability and less of a nervous running blade.

If no one who can help is in your region, there is always Quebec (l'extraordinaire)......, be same Quebec City and above all Montreal. There are some exceptionally knowledgeable people (shops) between those two cities and I feel confident you can achieve a solution ultimately, if not on your own then through their wisdom. I would most certainly speak to a few figure skating experts first and take it from there.

[AfftonDad 88]

My son skated twice on with the shims on the outside of the skate this weekend. He HATED it. He is begging me to put them back the way they were. I'll try a couple more skates, but it's looking like a failed experiement.

[smcgreg 81]

My son skated twice on with the shims on the outside of the skate this weekend. He HATED it. He is begging me to put them back the way they were. I'll try a couple more skates, but it's looking like a failed experiement.

Thanks for the update. Honestly, I'm not terribly surprised. One argument could be made that he's adapted to the way his skates currently are and trying to "fix it" at this point will cause problems. He might adapt in the long run though. Still, shimming seems like an inappropriate fix if the weight is not centered over the blade.

On related notes.....

First, last week, after getting into Makos and still having somewhat of an issue where I "roll over" the inside edge (pronate if you will), and having Oldtrainer guy say blade alignment was a simple issue, I asked the guy who sharpens my skates and does repair work on skates if he aligned blades. He asked me why and I told him. He held up the skates, looked the blades and said, "the blades are right where they're supposed to be". I am becoming less and less impressed with this guy and he is the go to guy everybody recommends in my area.

Second, I am in a dept that also hosts a graduate program in Orthotics and Prosthetics. These guys are typically very "orthotic friendly" if you will. I went to one of the faculty who I know was an inline speed skater and a pretty good one. When I told him about the issue for myself and my son, the first thing he recommended in both cases was blade alignment. Not an orthotic, but blade alighment and this is an orthotic guy. He agreed with my assessment that a medial shim or high arched orthotic (superfeet) for my flat footed son would be the exact wrong thing to do. in my case it was less clear, but in both cases he said blade alignment is the first thing he would recommend. He had it done for his inlines. Unfortunately, he had his work done by machine shop due to the nature of the inline boot/holder system. So, probably not an option as a resource for me.

[smu 29]

According to everything I'm reading, I under-pronate (aka supinate). Not over-pronate.

Hi,

How do you post a graphic or photo, I was just advised that you now could not?

Thanks - Alan

[IPv6Freely 2093]

Hi,

How do you post a graphic or photo, I was just advised that you now could not?

Thanks - Alan

use www.imgur.com and then post that here with the "image" button in the editing tools bar above the post window. (bold, italic, underline... etc)

[smu 29]

To SMU..............

Blade misalignment is more common than most realize, principally on product MADE IN ASIA, starting with blade curvature as per the manner by which rivets are placed into the sole...... Up one side, down the next in about 5 seconds no less! When a competent shop installs new holders or re-installs holders I can assure you they do not do that! As you should v. well know they start on one side with one rivet and delicately at that thank you and then immediately go to the other side and so on and so forth..............

A number of competent shops would love it if a given boot mfgr. were to simply sell the boot (at least higher end models that are a financial rip-off, but I digress) without the holder/blade so the shop could then install same but that ain't gonna happen. So buyers are dealt what buyers are dealt and that's that. Always visually check the straightness of a blade before you buy...............

When a blade is not aligned or if it is curved, the obvious has to happen. Don't accept. Open another box or have the shop order another set. I know, this could take all day............. But when it comes to lateral re-alignment, this is not for the do it yourselfer or first timer per se.

MLX (RIP) design not only had bolts that were, like Graf, screwed into dedicated bolt holes - that are threaded by the way, MLX also had an outer flange plate which is critical to their moveable design. Graf do not have any provision for this as same has never been part of their offering. Graf tend to do overwhelmingly beyond superlative finish work (in additional to their non pareil comfort), far beyond that of anyone else but I have seen a Calgary Graf boot/holder/runner that should have been thrown back in their face. Phenomenal product, nasty senior management who know me and hate me as I have exposed their hubris and indifference to their face for what they are. I hope this has finally caught up with them as they know how screwed up they are management-wise.

Anyway............. So, the notion of taking a Dremel and elongating the typical four front and four rear holes of a Cobra 3000 or 5000 holder to appropriate potential straight lateral or yawed lateral realignment might sound good in theory but you are never going to know until you try and worst case scenario, things do not work out and you'll be looking at another set of holders. Under no circumstances try to appropriate a fix via the sole holes!

The Cobra 5000 holder does have technical provision for eight holes in the front (one set are elongated) and six in the rear with one set elongated. If you have the 5000 then you know I mean. Graf bolt the 5000 at their Calgary factory with the aforementioned four in the front and four in the rear, leaving the others open inclusive of the four elongated. The elongated holes versus that of the standard holes are essentially 70% greater in length or about an additional 2/16ths which is in fact quite a lot.

Trying to affect a flange (between the bolt and holder from the outside) will not be easy as same I can see in my mind's eye. The trick....., try finding one if need be. Graf's bolts do have a "flange" at the base and I would see if that is enough which I hope it is. Again, you'll never know until you try. May I strongly suggest directly speaking with someone in your neck of the woods who are a competent FIGURE SKATING shop (not run of the mill) operation who know full well just how crucial blade alignment is on any skate, above all figure skates - the real high end stuff. A simple shift of no more than 1/16th of an inch for figure skaters is sometimes all that is needed to set things right and that many times is only in either the toe or heel, not both, so a competent individual whose ear you could catch knows well how critical this is of which there are not that many. Also, not dismissing alignment but I'd be curious what your blade radius and hollow is............. Graf provide an 11 foot standard factory radius on their 254 and up blades and while there is no magic number on that in terms of radius length which varies depending upon weight and need as per ultimate custom radius (via template only!!!) which I highly recommend - again, only by a shop that has templates, never, ever freehand, many skaters today tend to be on too short a radius and way too deep a hollow. No magic number in hollow either but if you are deeper than 12/16's, try jumping up to that and possibly even more flat, 13/16's, 14/16's............ Trust me, flatter IS better. The two create more stability and less of a nervous running blade.

If no one who can help is in your region, there is always Quebec (l'extraordinaire)......, be same Quebec City and above all Montreal. There are some exceptionally knowledgeable people (shops) between those two cities and I feel confident you can achieve a solution ultimately, if not on your own then through their wisdom. I would most certainly speak to a few figure skating experts first and take it from there.

arcsince,

I must have read you message too fast the last time, glad I am reading again to digest more info and your material on the Graf realignment with the two slotted unused holes front and back on the holder. I don't have the bottom of the Graf holder in front of me, but I can remember those slots. Are you saying that there are spare holes apart from the four elongated ones? I take it there would be posts under these

My guy has the proper posts to set in and allow for the same attachment method, but the others would have to be removed and replaced on a slightly different plane. Epoxy is used to fill in the holes, but would not this weaken the sole? Thanks for the advice though.

BTY I had a few sharp emails with the former manager at Graf - SF - before he relented and gave me a third pair of skates. It was funny I measured my boot and blade angle and it was out by 4%, I gave them back to Graf and they said it was 1% and withing their tolerances! I did get my skates though and then flipped them for the Bauer.

Thanks again - Alan

[IPv6Freely 2093]

How do you tell if the blade is out of alignment/warped?

[smu 29]

My son skated twice on with the shims on the outside of the skate this weekend. He HATED it. He is begging me to put them back the way they were. I'll try a couple more skates, but it's looking like a failed experiement.

OK it did not work and if it is that bad take the shims out, it should not cost much. What was the thickness of the shims, I was pronating a fair bit but I took 1/4" on a size 5 skate. Are you sure he is not supinating? Try the water on the foot and paper experiment to determine.

Are the holders lined up properly? Look to see if the are perpendicular with the boot. It could be that the out-sole is warped making the holder not perpendicular, it happened to me.

Another good idea is to look at the base and notice to see if the rivets are equally set on the out-sole.

To have a perfect fit of the holder on the skate (not the foot) the blade holder should be right down the middle and if you look at the rivets they should be equal from both edges left and right and up and down. If they are off that could be a good reason for the trouble.

You may need some real help in your area that knows what they are doing not just using a fitter.

I have learned what I have said only from my own experience and lately a lot of research on the web as to what causes problems.

For me I now know that I have a pronation problem and have to accommodate that, but there are many other issues, with the skates or skate sharpener that may come into play. Here is what I posted yesterday I believe, on another thread.

Look up the thread - 1 new set, 1 old set of LS2 Bauer Blades - All Warped? What to Do?

Near the bottom of the article I listed a number of things you have to look for in skates, I say you have to know a heck of a lot to make sure you get a proper pair.

1- has the boot been fitted right, not too big or not too small

2- does the skate fit your weight and style

3- are there any flaws in your skate

4- skate holders initially should be straight, in the middle of the skate, there are a many that are not

5- are the holders put on properly with regards to being perpendicular to the bottom of the skate boot

6- is the bottom of the skate boot warped

7- skates holders are place in the center of the boot suiting 10% of the population, skaters that don't fit that 10% fall (somewhere) on the Bell Curve

8- do you have fallen arches (pronation) or high arches (supination), that should be addressed for proper skating

9- are the blades warped, either holder related or just the blade itself

10- is your weight balanced or do you feel too far forward or backward (added - meaning - they may need to be contoured)

There most likely more things to consider, but I lost it there!

Please review the thread I gave you above and good luck. If there is anything I can help with I will try.

Alan

Good luck

[smu 29]

use www.imgur.com and then post that here with the "image" button in the editing tools bar above the post window. (bold, italic, underline... etc)

I have subscribed, uploaded 5 images, started my reply, clicked on the image button, put in the URL and I see only 2 little blocks of nothing. Then got a notice that I am not allowed to do this!

Sorry, but help me some more.

[AfftonDad 88]

OK it did not work and if it is that bad take the shims out, it should not cost much. What was the thickness of the shims, I was pronating a fair bit but I took 1/4" on a size 5 skate. Are you sure he is not supinating? Try the water on the foot and paper experiment to determine.

Thickness was 3 pieces of 0.8mm plastic, so 2.4mm. I'm positive he is pronating (not supinating). Been aware of it from a very early age when he was diagnosed with joint hyperlaxity by orthopedic MD. Joint hyperlaxity is overly flexible joints. Most people that are double jointed have some degree of joint hyperlaxity. In his anxles, the excessive flexibility causes his ankles to roll in giving the appearance of flat feet however, he actually has pretty high arches, they just appear to become flat when his ankle is rolled in. Non-intuitively, the excessive flexibility makes his achilles tendon extremely inflexible because it has become very strong to compensate for the excess lateral flexibilty in his ankles. When he was younger, he used to walk around on his tip toes all the time because his achilles tendons were so tight and we had to stretch his legs every night before bed (and a couple of other times each day if we could get to it). Initially, I was a little worried that having him skate so much would be torture for him, but the doctor said that it was probably one of the best things we could do for it. As I said before it has gotten much better as he has gotten older and become more athletic (playing lacrosse and hockey and now doing plyometric, strength, and agility training).

I have always bought him top of the line skates, thinking that the added stiffness would help the situation, but his most recent skates are EQ-50's which seem to be less stiff than his U+CLs and he is now tying them himself (which means that they are looser than what I would have tied them) and I'm pretty sure that the less stiffness is helping him skate better. So I guess I was wrong in trying to compensate so much with stiffness.

It's not much of a problem anymore except that he has always run and skated a little slower and been a little less stable than I think he probably otherwise would, so I'm always looking for ways to help him out.