Winnwell

[MrData 93]

There's one business decision I don't understand. On the Winnwell website, it says that both the GX-8 and the AMP 700 are $129.99 CDN. What is the incentive to get one of these sticks over a Sher-Wood T90? At $99 or less, I would agree that a GX-8 is a great deal, but $130 is competing directly with the T90. That's a losing battle. That being said, I think I'll definitely pick up a Pro 480 (Canadian Tire version of the GX-8) when they go on sale for $70-80. Hard to beat at that price.

[AIREAYE 248]

Just because there is a single good product at a particular pricepoint doesn't mean that everyone will want it. With that logic, all the other companies may as well pack their bags and stop making sticks at $130. If Sherwood decided to sell their upcoming top-end model at $199, CCM may as well cancel production of the RBZ100? Bauer with their X90? It's about competition, and trying to gain market share in each sub-segment.

[MrData 93]

Just because there is a single good product at a particular pricepoint doesn't mean that everyone will want it. With that logic, all the other companies may as well pack their bags and stop making sticks at $130. If Sherwood decided to sell their upcoming top-end model at $199, CCM may as well cancel production of the RBZ100? Bauer with their X90? It's about competition, and trying to gain market share in each sub-segment.

But how can Winnwell's mid-tier stick compete with Sherwood's top-tier stick when they're both the same price? What incentive does anyone have to buy a GX-8 over a T90? I'm not saying they should give up, but they should price a stick that actually compares to the T90, like the GX-10 or Pro Stock Team, closer to $130 and/or lower the price on the GX-8. In any case, I thought it was supposed to be a sub-$100 stick? Why the recent price hike?

[AIREAYE 248]

I understand what you are saying, that the T90 seems to be a better value and is more successful than the AMP700, but you are looking at it from too narrow a lens. You are assuming that everyone with $130 to spend on a stick is limited to those 2 choices AND that they know everything about the value of the 2 choices, when this is not always the case. There are a whole host of factors that play a part in a company deciding on pricing. The market is such that perception and brand awareness play a huge part in the purchase decision.

As an example in response to your first question I offer you this parallel: If Bauer's one-below stick competed directly with (this is a hypothetical 2-product market then) Sherwood's top-end at the same price, what would most people choose? Probably the Bauer one most of the time because of the brand. By your reasoning, people would have no incentive to buy the Bauer because the Sherwood is a better overall product at the same price. Relating it back to the Winnwell, perhaps they placed the AMP700 with the T90 NOT as a competition spec for spec, but rather as a means to grab attention from its success. Perhaps they think people would not view the 700 as equal to the T90 if they priced it lower. Perhaps they are attempting to alter people's perceptions based on price?

Look at fine wines for example. if an existing high end product was out there for (say) $300 a bottle, I might consider pricing my (assuming here) similar-quality wine at $400 to make people THINK that it's better. Happens all the time actually, in nearly every product category.

Ultimately, my point is that while you nor I would choose the AMP700 over the T90 at the same price, others might because they think they are comparing two similar products. You and I, being more familiar with gear, would not. WW might have a bevy of OTHER factors that influence their pricing decision; perhaps costs, or buyer demands to have sticks at certain mandatory pricepoints? Perhaps (and I think this more likely) they looked at what EVERYONE ELSE was pricing their lineups at and decided based on the overall market that $130 was the best fit with what they were offering and what everyone else was offering?

TLDR: It's not particularly fair to WW to criticize that one decision without understanding their thought process or strategy. It's also not practical to understanding the whole story when one is only comparing two products solely based on their own merits.

[Chadd 916]

TLDR: It's not particularly fair to WW to criticize that one decision without understanding their thought process or strategy. It's also not practical to understanding the whole story when one is only comparing two products solely based on their own merits.

You also have to consider cost and margin as well as economy of scale and a number of different issues when it comes to pricing. There is nothing wrong with having a preference for one brand or another, but understanding pricing models is another story entirely.

Perhaps (and I think this more likely) they looked at what EVERYONE ELSE was pricing their lineups at and decided based on the overall market that $130 was the best fit with what they were offering and what everyone else was offering?

That's what most people do. They slot the sticks where they believe the fit in the general retail market.

[AIREAYE 248]

You also have to consider cost and margin as well as economy of scale and a number of different issues when it comes to pricing. There is nothing wrong with having a preference for one brand or another, but understanding pricing models is another story entirely.

That's what most people do. They slot the sticks where they believe the fit in the general retail market.

Bingo; I got the impression that MrData was channeling both in his opinions, which provided me with a small opportunity to practise my writing skills. Thanks!

[MrData 93]

Bingo; I got the impression that MrData was channeling both in his opinions, which provided me with a small opportunity to practise my writing skills. Thanks!

The problem with trying to grab customers based on brand loyalty/awareness is that Winnwell has lost much of its prestige. I would say that, in terms of popular perception, Bauer/Easton > Reebok/Warrior/CCM > Sher-Wood/Graf > Winnwell/Eagle/Miken/Etc. Of course, this is very much a rough approximation, but the point I'm trying to make is that I don't think it's wise to alienate informed customers in order to try to snag less informed, more brand-conscious customers, who are already loyal to one of the big brands. Those customers are unlikely to jump ship to Winnwell unless they get a very big discount on a similar-quality product.

I think the AMP 1100 illustrates my point. It's Winnwell's highest-quality stick. However, at $229, it's competing with other companies' top-tier or second-tier sticks. Would a consumer using the 20K, RBZ, or TotalOne switch over to the AMP 1100 for a negligible discount? Not to mention that the previous year's sticks are often on sale for around $200. At $229, the AMP 1100 is also too expensive for the informed buyer looking for a bargain (they can get a T100 for $180 or a closeout big-brand OPS for around that price). That means the AMP 1100 is caught in a no-man's land between the 'bargain top-tier stick' category and the 'perceived high-performance stick' category. However, if the AMP 1100 were priced similarly to the T100 at around $180, that would probably be enough to lure big-brand customers over and compete with the T100 for well-informed bargain hunters.

I think we both agree that the well-informed consumer (e.g. most of the MSH community) currently has no incentive to choose a Winnwell stick like the AMP 700 or the GX-8 over a similarly-priced stick like the T90. I'm just disappointed that Winnwell chooses to adopt this kind of business model instead of producing the highest quality product they can at a lower price like Sher-Wood. What attracted me to Winnwell in the first place was that I'd heard that you could get a relatively high-quality stick (the GX-8) for under $100. Unfortunately, it looks like that's no longer true.

[AIREAYE 248]

The problem with trying to grab customers based on brand loyalty/awareness is that Winnwell has lost much of its prestige. I would say that, in terms of popular perception, Bauer/Easton > Reebok/Warrior/CCM > Sher-Wood/Graf > Winnwell/Eagle/Miken/Etc. Of course, this is very much a rough approximation, but the point I'm trying to make is that I don't think it's wise to alienate informed customers in order to try to snag less informed, more brand-conscious customers, who are already loyal to one of the big brands. Those customers are unlikely to jump ship to Winnwell unless they get a very big discount on a similar-quality product.

I think the AMP 1100 illustrates my point. It's Winnwell's highest-quality stick. However, at $229, it's competing with other companies' top-tier or second-tier sticks.

I think we both agree that the well-informed consumer (e.g. most of the MSH community) currently has no incentive to choose a Winnwell stick like the AMP 700 or the GX-8 over a similarly-priced stick like the T90. I'm just disappointed that Winnwell chooses to adopt this kind of business model instead of producing the highest quality product they can at a lower price like Sher-Wood. What attracted me to Winnwell in the first place was that I'd heard that you could get a relatively high-quality stick (the GX-8) for under $100. Unfortunately, it looks like that's no longer true.

1st quote: I don't disagree, but again, I'm thinking that WW believes that it's time for them to portray themselves to be competitive with the big boys, no longer an old relic brand, or a 'budget' brand. They are doing this by putting out another stick line and by pushing the boundaries of their pricing structure. This is my fine wine example. They want more people to start seeing them this way.

2nd quote: Yes, I agree that it's not at an attractive price point, what with closeouts, pro stocks etc. But neither are any sticks between $150-$250, yet you still see them. It's a process that takes time to build. While I would agree with you in the T100 comparison, I feel that WW realizes as well, and perhaps decided to go with that price perception concept to build their brand.

3rd: Not fair to them; have you even tried their products?

Ultimately though, whether or not we can judge this strategy to be successful or not remains to be seen. WW would have their own gauge of success, whether it be a simple ROI analysis or a brand building measurement, and that would have to take some time to realize. I think we can both agree that Sherwood is enjoying a good amount of success with their T90, N12 and T100 launches, though as far as we know, that could only be in rebuilding their brand!

[MrData 93]

1st quote: I don't disagree, but again, I'm thinking that WW believes that it's time for them to portray themselves to be competitive with the big boys, no longer an old relic brand, or a 'budget' brand. They are doing this by putting out another stick line and by pushing the boundaries of their pricing structure. This is my fine wine example. They want more people to start seeing them this way.

2nd quote: Yes, I agree that it's not at an attractive price point, what with closeouts, pro stocks etc. But neither are any sticks between $150-$250, yet you still see them. It's a process that takes time to build. While I would agree with you in the T100 comparison, I feel that WW realizes as well, and perhaps decided to go with that price perception concept to build their brand.

3rd: Not fair to them; have you even tried their products?

About that 3rd quote: Sorry, I think I didn't express myself clearly. I meant that Sher-Wood offers its highest-tier stick at a considerable discount, while WinnWell offers its highest-tier stick at similar prices to the top brands in the industry. I don't mean to speak about the actual quality of Winnwell sticks, as I've heard only good things about them and I haven't tried them myself (yet).

I do plan to pick up the Pro 480 when it goes on sale at CT, as $80 is awesome value for a stick similar to the GX-8. Yet, I wouldn't order a GX-8 from the Winnwell website at $129. It's not just about the quality of the product - it's about getting the best bang for my buck.

As a footnote, it might be a good strategy for Winnwell to ship out some of those AMP 1100s to MSHers for long-term reviews. I put a lot of stock in the long-term reviews on this site (as I'm sure many other people do), and I think it would help Winnwell to draw informed consumers. Personally, I'd love to try one out, but I have neither the pedigree to merit a long-term review spot nor the cash to buy one retail and post a regular review.

[AIREAYE 248]

Your concerns are valid and fair and I'm sure provide some good feedback for the WW guys who drop by here. Having heard all kinds of opinions for all kinds of sticks by all kinds of brands from all kinds of people, one obviously does hope that people could make more informed decisions, but of course, as with nearly everything, that is rarely the case lol (not referring to you btw) and at the end of the day, we all have to make a sales pitch to move forward. Good discussion though, thanks!

[MrData 93]

Your concerns are valid and fair and I'm sure provide some good feedback for the WW guys who drop by here. Having heard all kinds of opinions for all kinds of sticks by all kinds of brands from all kinds of people, one obviously does hope that people could make more informed decisions, but of course, as with nearly everything, that is rarely the case lol (not referring to you btw) and at the end of the day, we all have to make a sales pitch to move forward. Good discussion though, thanks!

Productive discussions like this one are why I like this site so much. Maybe a Winnwell rep will chime in?

[Chadd 916]

About that 3rd quote: Sorry, I think I didn't express myself clearly. I meant that Sher-Wood offers its highest-tier stick at a considerable discount, while WinnWell offers its highest-tier stick at similar prices to the top brands in the industry. I don't mean to speak about the actual quality of Winnwell sticks, as I've heard only good things about them and I haven't tried them myself (yet).

Many people believe that a product can't be of equal quality unless it is priced similarly to other high end products. They equate a high price to high performance and a low price to low performance. Because of this, as well as other factors, many people consider the SWD products to be inferior to other products on the market. On the other hand, you have a subset of the population that only cares about price and will convince themselves and others that a cheaper product is as good as, or better than, a more expensive product simply because they want to believe that. Often that happens without those people trying the more expensive products, or using sticks that are too stiff for them and never being able to take advantage of the performance in either product.

[IPv6Freely 2100]

Many people believe that a product can't be of equal quality unless it is priced similarly to other high end products. They equate a high price to high performance and a low price to low performance.

That's an interesting point. If you look at the "big companies" like Bauer, Easton, CCM they tend to have 4-5 price points at various levels. Let me use sticks as an example. You have the following 5 price points for each brand:

Bauer APX2: 259

Easton Mako2: 250

CCM RBZ Stage 2: 259

Bauer X100: 199

Easton Mako2 M5: 199

CCM RBZ 100: 199

Bauer X90: 149

Easton Mako2 M3: 149

CCM RBZ 80: 129

Bauer X80: 99

Easton Mako2 M2: 99

CCM RBZ 60: 99

Bauer X70: 59

Easton Mako2 M1: 69

CCM RBZ 40: 59

So with this in mind, is it all that surprising that if somebody has a $150 product you would assume it's not as good as the other brands top end products, since all the big manufactures all use (roughly) the same pricing on their tiers? IMO it would be difficult to NOT come to that conclusion just based on the other products on the market.

[MrData 93]

That's an interesting point. If you look at the "big companies" like Bauer, Easton, CCM they tend to have 4-5 price points at various levels. Let me use sticks as an example. You have the following 5 price points for each brand:

Bauer APX2: 259

Easton Mako2: 250

CCM RBZ Stage 2: 259

Bauer X100: 199

Easton Mako2 M5: 199

CCM RBZ 100: 199

Bauer X90: 149

Easton Mako2 M3: 149

CCM RBZ 80: 129

Bauer X80: 99

Easton Mako2 M2: 99

CCM RBZ 60: 99

Bauer X70: 59

Easton Mako2 M1: 69

CCM RBZ 40: 59

So with this in mind, is it all that surprising that if somebody has a $150 product you would assume it's not as good as the other brands top end products, since all the big manufactures all use (roughly) the same pricing on their tiers? IMO it would be difficult to NOT come to that conclusion just based on the other products on the market.

Meanwhile, Reebok's Ribcor 25k is $150, and if it's as close to the Ribcor as the 9k was to the 11k, it probably blows all but the highest-end sticks on that list out of the water. Pretty awesome value (and a sweet move by Reebok) if you ask me. I'd say Sher-Wood is in part responsible for that move, as Reebok is probably trying to snatch up Nexon 12 and T100 customers. That's the kind of competition I love.

[IPv6Freely 2100]

Meanwhile, Reebok's Ribcor 25k is $150, and if it's as close to the Ribcor as the 9k was to the 11k, it probably blows all but the highest-end sticks on that list out of the water. Pretty awesome value (and a sweet move by Reebok) if you ask me. I'd say Sher-Wood is in part responsible for that move, as Reebok is probably trying to snatch up Nexon 12 and T100 customers. That's the kind of competition I love.

Yes, if the Ribcor 25k is a $199 price point stick (like the 9k was to the 11k) priced at $150, it's a steal. I'm not going to be buying a top end stick probably ever again, I'm curious to see some reviews on the 25k.

[Chadd 916]

Split from the catalog topic as it does not belong there

[Stewie 721]

as to the point of the LTR, Winnwell had a rep at SummerJam with plenty of amps in tow. I myself agree, it may be priced too high to be competitive in the market, but the stick wasnt for me to begin with due to shaft shape and non availability in my chosen flex.

As for the 25K, it does seem like quite a value, may pick up one myself.

[Chappy55 2]

Wow - great Thread on our brand....glad that Winnwell made an impression, considering where we've come from and where we plan on going.

Always happy to engage with like-minded - hockey obsessed individuals. In reading the posts - I am happy to see that we have our supporters and we have our critics - both are healthy in a free market.

To me - it looks like a great deal of efforts and energy of this post is to try and make sense of consumer pricing....if any of you figure it out - I would be happy to pay for the answer, as creating a pricing that is competitive while at the same time profitable is one of our greatest challenges - as can be noted from the number of posts this topics has received.

For this purpose - I can only comment on our strategy as I think it would be unfair to the other competitors to simply offer up “my " guesses..

A couple of key take away.....

1) Affordability - agreed that on the surface - it would appear that we have lost our GX8 save story - but in fact we continue to offer high value products at affordable pricing. Our GX8 was one such example and for a patient few - you will see them as a final push towards Holiday 2013 at our local retailers. As part of our 2013 / 2014 strategy - the GX8 stick has been dropped and in replacement - sticks from the AMP series and Q series have been introduced. In securing retail placement - we are confident to say that the price proposition is available through retailers and not through our website....See note below

2) Internet pricing - should be noted that it rarely offers the best pricing option - our industry has done a great job of supporting the "bricks and mortar" establishments that have been the bedrock of the hockey industry. For us - we use the internet to set market prices as that at the moment, our brand is not as widely distributed as we would like (but those days are changing)....as such - when we need to launch a new series - we need to help the marketplace establish the value and typically this is done by retails - not always the best way to gauge value but one that has been and continues to be used by many retailers...

3) Brand Direction - As mentioned in the opening - one of the most challenging process is to set pricing that allows for the product to be seen as a viable option while at the same time ensure both retailer and manufacturer a degree of profitability. Hockey is an expensive sport - we can all agree on this point - and what we want to ensure is that if a player wants to secure high end specs at an affordable price - Winnwell Hockey is a perfectly suited option. The example of an AMP1100 @ $229.00 vs. other top tier brands @ $?? is a good point ....We have heard on numerous occasions at various demo days ( MSH jam / NCAA Demo days / etc...) that our stick performs in a similar way to other top tier brands. So we counter that if the playability is similar - why not save enough money while purchasing a Winnwell product to help fund a new pair of gloves or pants or mortgage!

We 100% agree with the comments that our brand goodwill / equity is not where it needs to be - we continue to work on this with each and every marketing activity we participate in. As an example - at the latest Summer Jam - I was very proud to be part of a select group of vendors that made the trip to the former Garden and had the opportunity to show our wares (it should be noted that not every top tier / and less second or third tier brands were present), finally getting added to the NHL 14 as part of the EA sports franchise helps , being part of a select group of NHL on ice vendors helps, providing AMBASSADOR pricing for those at the Summer Jam event helps.....not going to reverse the tide in one season - but we are taking the necessary steps to ensure our brands long term success.

I'm not here to “bash " anyone....not my style - I am more than happy to jump in a discussion at any time if I can add to the dialogue.

As mentioned - I count myself luck to have spent the better part of 17 years working in every aspect of the hockey industry (Pro Sales, Product development / Sales Management) and look forward to being part of the evolution of the hockey industry.

[AIREAYE 248]

Thanks Richard. Good point on the NHL 14 inclusion. Nice move, I put a pair fo those Pro Stock gloves on my character right away.

[Stewie 721]

Wow - great Thread on our brand....glad that Winnwell made an impression, considering where we've come from and where we plan on going.

Always happy to engage with like-minded - hockey obsessed individuals. In reading the posts - I am happy to see that we have our supporters and we have our critics - both are healthy in a free market.

To me - it looks like a great deal of efforts and energy of this post is to try and make sense of consumer pricing....if any of you figure it out - I would be happy to pay for the answer, as creating a pricing that is competitive while at the same time profitable is one of our greatest challenges - as can be noted from the number of posts this topics has received.

For this purpose - I can only comment on our strategy as I think it would be unfair to the other competitors to simply offer up “my " guesses..

A couple of key take away.....

1) Affordability - agreed that on the surface - it would appear that we have lost our GX8 save story - but in fact we continue to offer high value products at affordable pricing. Our GX8 was one such example and for a patient few - you will see them as a final push towards Holiday 2013 at our local retailers. As part of our 2013 / 2014 strategy - the GX8 stick has been dropped and in replacement - sticks from the AMP series and Q series have been introduced. In securing retail placement - we are confident to say that the price proposition is available through retailers and not through our website....See note below

2) Internet pricing - should be noted that it rarely offers the best pricing option - our industry has done a great job of supporting the "bricks and mortar" establishments that have been the bedrock of the hockey industry. For us - we use the internet to set market prices as that at the moment, our brand is not as widely distributed as we would like (but those days are changing)....as such - when we need to launch a new series - we need to help the marketplace establish the value and typically this is done by retails - not always the best way to gauge value but one that has been and continues to be used by many retailers...

3) Brand Direction - As mentioned in the opening - one of the most challenging process is to set pricing that allows for the product to be seen as a viable option while at the same time ensure both retailer and manufacturer a degree of profitability. Hockey is an expensive sport - we can all agree on this point - and what we want to ensure is that if a player wants to secure high end specs at an affordable price - Winnwell Hockey is a perfectly suited option. The example of an AMP1100 @ $229.00 vs. other top tier brands @ $?? is a good point ....We have heard on numerous occasions at various demo days ( MSH jam / NCAA Demo days / etc...) that our stick performs in a similar way to other top tier brands. So we counter that if the playability is similar - why not save enough money while purchasing a Winnwell product to help fund a new pair of gloves or pants or mortgage!

We 100% agree with the comments that our brand goodwill / equity is not where it needs to be - we continue to work on this with each and every marketing activity we participate in. As an example - at the latest Summer Jam - I was very proud to be part of a select group of vendors that made the trip to the former Garden and had the opportunity to show our wares (it should be noted that not every top tier / and less second or third tier brands were present), finally getting added to the NHL 14 as part of the EA sports franchise helps , being part of a select group of NHL on ice vendors helps, providing AMBASSADOR pricing for those at the Summer Jam event helps.....not going to reverse the tide in one season - but we are taking the necessary steps to ensure our brands long term success.

I'm not here to “bash " anyone....not my style - I am more than happy to jump in a discussion at any time if I can add to the dialogue.

As mentioned - I count myself luck to have spent the better part of 17 years working in every aspect of the hockey industry (Pro Sales, Product development / Sales Management) and look forward to being part of the evolution of the hockey industry.

your gloves definitely impressed me at SJ, it was my best of show in terms of demo'd equipment. I quipped to my girlfriend afterwards that I was regretting having just purchased new mitts =) may get a pair in the future. I like the amps performance, but my hands just couldnt get used to the shape, but for someone else, its a solid buy for sure.

[Stewie 721]

also, as far as you getting into more retail stores, that would be awesome. I am very interested in your shoulders and shins, I just dont have easily measurable sizing as im between M and L a lot of times, wish i could try them on. Are you in the Metro Detroit area anywhere?

[SirJW 207]

Love my pro stock gloves have had them about a year and holding up great playing beer league 2-3 times a week.