pitc? radius? other?

[Souldriver 64]

So as some of you know I'm switching from Inline to ice and after abourlt 4 skates I feel comfortable for about 90% of my skating on ice except for something I just can't seem to get down pat.

I find when I'm going faster and start to get into a forward lean I feel as if my skates are gliding over "dirt" and there is extra friction. This has on different occasions caused me to stumble forward and onto my knees, once when I first hopped onto the ice I thought I would glide but I just tipped forward, and another time where I was going for a breakway but after the first couple of steps my skates seems to not glide with me and down I went. I don't think I'm leaning that far forward imho and it feels different than that "crunch" I get during t-starts.when I got back to inline skates I feel myself leaning back a bit but thats gone within warmups.

Would a forward pitch help this out as when I lean forward when I'm going faster I'll be more on the "flat" of my runners. I'm also thinking of going from a 9' radius to an 11' as I feel too nimble and at times it feel.like the turn is taking my feet with it.

I'm going to say it's not the ice as it's been very cold and early when I've skated and others have said the ice was great.

My skates:

Ice: Easton eq40 stock 9" radius sharpened once with a 9/16 roh

Inline: mission ac2 Hilo chassis (76-76-80-80) and I have yellow super feet in them.

Thanks, I really am loving the ice time I'm getting and am.looking forward to improving.

[matix218 11]

It sounds like you are leaning too far forward from what I am interpreting from your post/description.

You are probably used to leaning more of your body weight forward when you power skate on your inline skates because they are flatter and less pitched forward than your ice skates, which means when you go to power skate your muscle memory is having you lean forward more (since that is what you are used to on inline) and it is causing you to toe-dive. I may be wrong but that is my guess.

I have been playing both ice and inline for years so I am used to the switching back and forth and the "what works on ice vs what works on roller" when it comes to skating mechanics but it will probably just take you some time to get 100% used to the ice since you have been so comfortable with roller for a long time.

Regarding switching to an 11' radius, I personally prefer the longer radius to the shorter radius for speed/stability purposes but I would imagine that it is more the forward pitch of your ice skates than the actual 9' radius that is causing the issues you described so probably just skate more on them and you will adjust in no time.

[moreoutdoor 6]

ankle bend, knee forward on the gliding leg is what helps balance the torso and allows the drive leg extension.

Torso lean is very dependent on each skater's body structure - short torso, long legs (and usually arms) means the skater can have a bit more forward lean.

Long torso and relative shorter legs means the opposite. The ankle bend and knee forward drive help to balance the torso. Not seeing you, the pitching forward and skating in dirt could be not enough forward knee thrust (which comes off the drive to rear on the drive leg) OR too much lean for the torso size and mass.

2 vids which show the drive and glide legs well.

Victor, the russian has longer legs relative to torso - he has more leeway on torso lean angle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZcUcw7rDuw

laura stamm vid skater is more 'normal' proportioned.- shows the classic 50-55 degree angle to drive leg - torso follows suit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFH8VCXKUyQ

I would try to develop good technique first using the stock profile, maybe try a longer radius. A forward pitch, in addition to what it does for fast starts, will also affect backwards skating - personally, too much pitch bugs me. See if you can try skates with a 10 & 11 radius to see if you might do better on either. If loaners are not available - you can get an extra runner set from noice and have them done to a std 10' radius profile - swap them in and see how they feel. Relatively cheap way to experiment. I believe CCM (and so maybe RBK) use a 10' radius...

[Souldriver 64]

It sounds like you are leaning too far forward from what I am interpreting from your post/description.

You are probably used to leaning more of your body weight forward when you power skate on your inline skates because they are flatter and less pitched forward than your ice skates, which means when you go to power skate your muscle memory is having you lean forward more (since that is what you are used to on inline) and it is causing you to toe-dive. I may be wrong but that is my guess.

ankle bend, knee forward on the gliding leg is what helps balance the torso and allows the drive leg extension.

Torso lean is very dependent on each skater's body structure - short torso, long legs (and usually arms) means the skater can have a bit more forward lean.

Long torso and relative shorter legs means the opposite. The ankle bend and knee forward drive help to balance the torso. Not seeing you, the pitching forward and skating in dirt could be not enough forward knee thrust (which comes off the drive to rear on the drive leg) OR too much lean for the torso size and mass.

2 vids which show the drive and glide legs well.

Victor, the russian has longer legs relative to torso - he has more leeway on torso lean angle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZcUcw7rDuw

laura stamm vid skater is more 'normal' proportioned.- shows the classic 50-55 degree angle to drive leg - torso follows suit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFH8VCXKUyQ

I would try to develop good technique first using the stock profile, maybe try a longer radius. A forward pitch, in addition to what it does for fast starts, will also affect backwards skating - personally, too much pitch bugs me. See if you can try skates with a 10 & 11 radius to see if you might do better on either. If loaners are not available - you can get an extra runner set from noice and have them done to a std 10' radius profile - swap them in and see how they feel. Relatively cheap way to experiment. I believe CCM (and so maybe RBK) use a 10' radius...

for the record i am a short legged, big torsoed 250lbs man.

So what im reading, it seems like you guys are suggesting that a forward pitch put into the runner may actually make things worse because ill be more over the toe to begin with and then ill still be digging in on the front? is that right or am i misunderstanding, just trying to not misconstrued what you guys are saying.

I see what youre saying about the bending and the knee drive, my issue is that on inline im going much faster (when i go from ice to inline im off taken by my skates rolling much easier than my ice boots glide) and i dont have any issue with it. During warmups next time ill pay attention to how far i bring my knee back up when i go fast gliding.

[boo10 323]

If you weigh 250lbs I would also suggest a larger ROH, at least 3/4".

[SillyMe 22]

I would fill out the noicing profile form, send it in with a few comments like above, and see what he has to say.

May be helpful.

[matix218 11]

I still think it sounds like you are leaning too far forward when you are power skating and you are too much on the front of the blade and not enough of the "meat" of the blade is contacting the ice.

Again I could be wrong and I am just basing this on your OP description but that is what my opinion is.

I think that it will get better with more hours on the ice (just getting comfortable and learning new body mechanics/muscle memory).

[moreoutdoor 6]

for the record i am a short legged, big torsoed 250lbs man.

So what im reading, it seems like you guys are suggesting that a forward pitch put into the runner may actually make things worse because ill be more over the toe to begin with and then ill still be digging in on the front? is that right or am i misunderstanding, just trying to not misconstrued what you guys are saying.

...

yes, adjusting pitch helps fine tune a skater's style. I wouldn;t be using it as a sub for developing good skate form.

There are a lot of similarilties between ice and inline, but there are significant, less obvious differences. Not the time or place to go over this. Concentrating on the 'form' of 'ice' skating (as opposed to 'speed') pays back faster in development. Working on 'speed' once the form is solid then also happens quicker.

You're carryin a lot of mass, and as I suggested before, you might benefit from a flatter overall profile. I wouldn't re-profile your stock blades (I assume Eq40 have replaceable runners ???), but get another set with a balanced, but larger radius 10' to 11', and use those for a while. Then when technique becomes less an issue you have 2 profiles to compare and decide which works better for you...

I'm 162 lbs, 287 runners, and I prefer the stock ccm profile which is a general 10'. Tried shorter radius, and shorter front, and some ptich. But all had more significant drawbacks. I wouldn't call my legspeed as a high turnover rate, so glide is important to what level of acceleration quickness I have. Backwards skating/maneuvers are very important to me, pitch and a tight forward radius work against me on that.

[Souldriver 64]

yes, adjusting pitch helps fine tune a skater's style. I wouldn;t be using it as a sub for developing good skate form.

There are a lot of similarilties between ice and inline, but there are significant, less obvious differences. Not the time or place to go over this. Concentrating on the 'form' of 'ice' skating (as opposed to 'speed') pays back faster in development. Working on 'speed' once the form is solid then also happens quicker.

You're carryin a lot of mass, and as I suggested before, you might benefit from a flatter overall profile. I wouldn't re-profile your stock blades (I assume Eq40 have replaceable runners ???), but get another set with a balanced, but larger radius 10' to 11', and use those for a while. Then when technique becomes less an issue you have 2 profiles to compare and decide which works better for you...

I'm 162 lbs, 287 runners, and I prefer the stock ccm profile which is a general 10'. Tried shorter radius, and shorter front, and some ptich. But all had more significant drawbacks. I wouldn't call my legspeed as a high turnover rate, so glide is important to what level of acceleration quickness I have. Backwards skating/maneuvers are very important to me, pitch and a tight forward radius work against me on that.

Yes the eq40s have replaceable runners and I was going to order a new set for them. I think I should try the bigger radius for sure and if I can find them I think I have an older pair of super feet yellows with the slightly lifted back on them somewhere. I can put them in there to replicate what a forward pitch would be without changing much. We generally have enough time and space at our open skates that I could really practice on technique and how things feel then jump into the pickup right after.

[moreoutdoor 6]

...I think I have an older pair of super feet yellows with the slightly lifted back on them somewhere. I can put them in there to replicate what a forward pitch would be without changing much. We generally have enough time and space at our open skates that I could really practice on technique and how things feel then jump into the pickup right after.

adding shims under a footbed (or a footbed with more/less pitch) does help approximate a change in pitch, but isn;t quite the same. Adding shims or different footbed changes the way the foot sits in the boot, but doesn;t change the actual pitch of the boot, as would a runner re-profile or holder change. So not quite the same - but is an approximation, gives a bit of that feel. ... just sayin...

[Souldriver 64]

I don't think it would 100% but it is the zero risk, zero cost option that is easily reversable.

[Vet88 674]

I know exactly what you are going through, I had the same issues when I switched from inline to ice. Time on ice is the only answer. I tried different pitches and boots trying to find that inline feel but you just can't replicate how the long base of 4 wheels equates to 1/4" of steel. Also in this regards inline is less technically difficult. You can get away with a lot more in inlne with poor technique but not in ice, eg toppling forward.

Work on one footed balance drills, especially those that figure skaters use. Don't laugh, I'm still learning off them today and seeing how it makes me a better skater for ice. Besides inside and outside edges forwards and backwards, try 1 foot slaloms with non skating foot in front then behind (eg make 5 slalom turns with foot in front then 5 slalom turns with foot behind, keep working on extending the non skating foot as far in front or behind as possible). 1 foot slaloms with non skating foot turned outwards and resting on the top of your skating boot. Do these forwards and backwards and once you master them most of your balance problems will be over.

And I do agree that a 11' radius and 3/4 hollow will help at this stage. You can go down in your hollow later on as you begin to really improve.

And as an aside, if you don't play inline for a while and just concentrate on getting better at ice, you will be amazed at how much your inline skating has improved when you go back to it.

[Souldriver 64]

Got back on the ice and used warmups to work on these things. I consciously tried keeping my knees up front more and I felt fine and balanced and I didn't have that grit feel. Though once as I was gliding forward fast I did get it and i felt as if it happened not on the toe but right under the forefoot. The ice was fresh so I can't see it being a rutt, the only thing I could see maybe my skate dug in too deep? A 9/16th hollow with a 9" radius under a 250lbs man can put a lot of pressure on one point and maybe it just dug.

I'm pretty set on an 11' radius though and I'm gradually am going to increase the hollow size till I find the sweet spot.

Next I want to work on my power stride and getting the most out of my leg power. I'm not tall or and I have short legs but I have strong legs I can take advantage of. We play with all mixed levels and of the higher leveled guys has just a good strong stride he uses 2 maybe 3 steps to get across mid ice.