Skating 101

[caseyjones 26]

Im just looking for general knowledge on skating stride and the science/benefits behind skating with a forward pitch.  I know some of these topics are scattered throughout the website, but i guess im looking for more specific information.

I begain my skating lessons this past weekend and am skating in Graf Ultra G7's.  Im a great skater on rollerblades, but im pretty poor on ice.  I've probably developed some pretty bad tendencies with my mechanics.  I've become accustom to overly stiff skates that are tied too tight (original Vapor 10's).  I want to learn the "right way" on ice.  I dont think the flexible ankle of the Graf's are really hindering my skating.  They are extremely comfortable and fit great, yet my instructor noticed that my ankles were collapsing i guess? I dont really feel it much when im skating, i dont feel like i dont have support there and im someone who loves the feel of the skating supporting me, but he suggested i tie my skates extremely tight all the way through, which i generally do anyway, but he really cranked on the laces.  I had always read that the top eyelets of the skates shouldnt be tied "too tight".  So that was a surprise to me because i was trying to get away from something that i thought was a bad habit, yet my instructor was encouraging it.  Even with the laces cranked though i can still get a solid knee bend bc of the independent ankle construction of the skate.  Its not like cranking down on a pair of super stiff skates where you are immobilized.  So i was wondering if i should continue to crank the laces or if it would be beneficial to me as a skater to not go so tight up top.

Im also torn on the forward pitch.  I've always skated on Tuuk Custom+ for the limited times i played on ice.  Roller was usually a 80-80-72-72 set up.  I dont mind the forward pitch really, but it does feel weird when im asked to sit back on my heels.  It doesnt feel natural.  Its almost like wearing high heels.  When you see women walk in high heels who arent accustomed to it, their legs get wobbly and they lose balance.  Thats kind of how i feel when attempting to sit back on my heels.  When i put my foot into an old bauer skate i feel much more balanced and supported.  Im assuming my muscle memory needs to be reprogrammed which is fine, i have all the time in the world and i really dont feel like screwing with my skates so i was hoping for some positive reinforcement regarding skating with the forward pitch.  I have heard some people say to just do what feels best and others rave about the forward pitch once you adjust.  Im also confused when people say you should be on the balls of your feet, yet most of my instruction so far has emphasized balancing over the heel of the foot which is weird when your skate is pitched forward.

Perhaps my biggest issue yesterday was that i was lunging forward a lot with my mechanics and not sitting back in a more neutral position. 

 

[Vet88 674]

Personally I believe it is better to learn to skate with the top loose so that you learn how the blade feels under your foot and you control the edges using the muscles of your feet instead of relying on the sides of the boot. A european form of training is they don't do the top eyelet up and as you get better they then don't do the top 2 eyelets up and the really good skaters eventually get to the point of the top 3 eyelets not done up. In roller you can get away with technique that is not good but in ice that is found out rather quick. I would have you focusing most of your time at this stage on one foot balance drills so you can relearn how to stand in the boot, get the blade centered underneath you, your feet not collapsing inwards and learning where the edge is.

As to the pitch, coming from roller to Grafs you will find yourself pitched a lot further forward, Grafs have an aggressive pitch and add to this that the bottom of the blade is rockered (as opposed to an inline skate with 4 level wheels) then everytime you get onto the balls of your feet or heels the skate balance is changing underneath you. There is nothing wrong with forward pitch if you can adjust to it (and have the time), basically you have to relearn your balance points and learn to skate again. Whether or not a forward pitch suits your natural style of skating and balance is something you will have to find out but given enough time, anyone can learn to skate in anything. If you want to stay in Grafs but change the pitch you can, shims or a blade reprofile means you can try a more neutral pitch if you want to.

As to the heel focus, again not my preference and something I've had many discussions with a number of very good technical coaches. I prefer skaters to be in a neutral balance with the blade centered under their feet ie the middle of the blade is the main contact point on the ice. From this position you transfer your weight as required, heel or toe, depending on if you are turning, stopping, accelerating etc. But a glide up the ice is having you balanced over the center of your blade with equal weight distribution across your feet.

And here is the main point, do what feels comfortable for you. Everyone is different and skates differently, body mechanics, foot shape, natural balance etc means there is not one specific way to learn to skate, just what feels right and works for you. There is a lot of good stuff on youtube that can help supplement your training, I recommend having a watch of the "itrain train the trainers" vids as a starting point. eg 

 

[caseyjones 26]

Thank you, I appreciate the detailed response. 

[chk hrd 164]

I prefer a neutral pitch on my blade. For me it gives a better transfer from front to back and vice a versa. I am also not a big fan of cranking down on skates. My thought has always been if the skate fits correctly (a little tight but not foot crushing) then you can skate in them when they are tied loose. For the average player if you crank town all they way to the top it limits your forward flex and affects your skating posture, even more so on a stiff boot. Maybe your instructor has you tying all the way to the top and tight because he sees your ankles bending. If that's the case I would make sure your skates fit correctly. They may feel good but have to much volume. Since you roller I assume you have enough ankle strength. How tight to tie is a mater of preference. There is no right or wrong way.

[caseyjones 26]

I'm going to give it a bit to see if I get used to it. I have marsblades on a pair of g7's as well so I'm going to skate around in them on the street for more practice. I actually skated a little tonight and barley tied the top 3 eyelets. My ankles feel fine for the most part. Maybe it's my weak quads that is making my leg unstable

[Deadman1515 0]

On 2/22/2016 at 3:56 PM, Vet88 said:

Personally I believe it is better to learn to skate with the top loose so that you learn how the blade feels under your foot and you control the edges using the muscles of your feet instead of relying on the sides of the boot. A european form of training is they don't do the top eyelet up and as you get better they then don't do the top 2 eyelets up and the really good skaters eventually get to the point of the top 3 eyelets not done up. In roller you can get away with technique that is not good but in ice that is found out rather quick. I would have you focusing most of your time at this stage on one foot balance drills so you can relearn how to stand in the boot, get the blade centered underneath you, your feet not collapsing inwards and learning where the edge is.

As to the pitch, coming from roller to Grafs you will find yourself pitched a lot further forward, Grafs have an aggressive pitch and add to this that the bottom of the blade is rockered (as opposed to an inline skate with 4 level wheels) then everytime you get onto the balls of your feet or heels the skate balance is changing underneath you. There is nothing wrong with forward pitch if you can adjust to it (and have the time), basically you have to relearn your balance points and learn to skate again. Whether or not a forward pitch suits your natural style of skating and balance is something you will have to find out but given enough time, anyone can learn to skate in anything. If you want to stay in Grafs but change the pitch you can, shims or a blade reprofile means you can try a more neutral pitch if you want to.

As to the heel focus, again not my preference and something I've had many discussions with a number of very good technical coaches. I prefer skaters to be in a neutral balance with the blade centered under their feet ie the middle of the blade is the main contact point on the ice. From this position you transfer your weight as required, heel or toe, depending on if you are turning, stopping, accelerating etc. But a glide up the ice is having you balanced over the center of your blade with equal weight distribution across your feet.

And here is the main point, do what feels comfortable for you. Everyone is different and skates differently, body mechanics, foot shape, natural balance etc means there is not one specific way to learn to skate, just what feels right and works for you. There is a lot of good stuff on youtube that can help supplement your training, I recommend having a watch of the "itrain train the trainers" vids as a starting point. eg 

 

Thanks for posting, I can see some of my bad habits from playing roller and moving into ice.

[Ashtasticness 89]

It takes a lot of time and practice. I like my skates being tight all the way up, I feel like that gives me more control. You can also do balance exercises at home. That does wonders. But everybody had their own way that works for them. 

[MikeBoyarchuk 45]

I've been lucky enough to have recently filmed some skating videos with Nathaniel Marx who is a local [Montreal-West] skating specialist who teaches / trains guys from the NHL right down to the Novice level. It all starts with your posture, now he is also in the group that preaches the ball of the foot position but maybe his explanation will explain it further. 

 

This doesn't address the lace question, but my thinking would be that you'd want to find the method of tying up your skates that allows you to achieve the ideal posture out there. 

 

Hope this helps, Cheers. 

Video link; https://youtu.be/9l6ttScxyO0

[caseyjones 26]

Wow, i guess its been a month since i have come back to this thread.  I appreciate again all the replies.

 

For an update, im only skating once  a week and missed two weeks in a row due to cancellations, but im starting to feel a little better out there.  Still kind of horrible (technicality wise), but getting slightly better.  Im currently going to physical therapy for my pelvis that is out of alignment which makes balancing on one leg that much harder.  The reason my left skate collapses into the side is because my hips are uneven which gives the visualization of a leg length discrepancy, but hopefully i can correct that sooner rather than later.  I actually think the balancing on ice will aid in correcting the misalignment as well.

 

The funniest thing to me is that after skating in the Graf's with all my concern over the forward pitch is that i decided to throw on my old Vapor 10 roller hockey skates just to see how they felt.  I cranked the laces all the way to the top just like i used to and WOW.  I guess my muscle memory is starting to kick in already.  First, it felt like i was wearing clown shoes.  My weight felt like it was all the way back in my heels.  I couldnt really bend my knees at all and it felt as if i was going to fall over backwards if i wasnt too careful.  So, i guess i am adjusting to the forward pitch rather nicely and im certainly going to start some balancing techniques at home with my skates on to try to emulate the same feel.  Thanks again guys

[caseyjones 26]

1 hour ago, MikeBoyarchuk said:

I've been lucky enough to have recently filmed some skating videos with Nathaniel Marx who is a local [Montreal-West] skating specialist who teaches / trains guys from the NHL right down to the Novice level. It all starts with your posture, now he is also in the group that preaches the ball of the foot position but maybe his explanation will explain it further. 

 

This doesn't address the lace question, but my thinking would be that you'd want to find the method of tying up your skates that allows you to achieve the ideal posture out there. 

 

Hope this helps, Cheers. 

Video link; https://youtu.be/9l6ttScxyO0

 

Thanks for the video Mike.  It seems that everything talked about in the video is what im doing now except for the balance point.  My instructor has me sitting back on my heels and has all my foot pushes starting at the heel. 

[MikeBoyarchuk 45]

3 minutes ago, caseyjones said:

 

Thanks for the video Mike.  It seems that everything talked about in the video is what im doing now except for the balance point.  My instructor has me sitting back on my heels and has all my foot pushes starting at the heel. 

 

Never heard of that approach, but I'm no expert. Hey... we're putting together a forward stride video series I'd be happy to send you the videos now so you can see Nathaniel going through a progressive drill to improve your stride [not up on Youtube yet] DM me you email if your interested. 

 

Cheers!

[caseyjones 26]

On 3/21/2016 at 4:29 PM, MikeBoyarchuk said:

 

Never heard of that approach, but I'm no expert. Hey... we're putting together a forward stride video series I'd be happy to send you the videos now so you can see Nathaniel going through a progressive drill to improve your stride [not up on Youtube yet] DM me you email if your interested. 

 

Cheers!

 

Thanks Mike, i appreciate it.  Im OK with waiting for them to come out to the general public.  I can only get on the ice once per week so my progress will likely be slow.  I'll definitely check them out once they are up though.