Vapor vs Supreme (size in length)

[Innocent Bystander 5]

My daughter is in 5.0D APX2 skates.  They have served her well.  The length seems fine, but she is developing some pain in the outsides of her feet.  I think the volume may be the problem, so I was thinking of switching her over to MX3 or 1S.  Anyone have insight on the lengths of the same size skates in Vapor to Supreme?  Is a 5.0 in Supreme going to be the same length?  I think she needs more volume in the midfoot area.  Her shoe size has been the same, so I don't think length is the problem.  If volume is the issue, will Supremes give her a little more volume in the midfoot region?  I know the heel lock is tighter on Supreme, and I think that is a good thing anyway.

Thanks for any guidance.

 

 

[Vet88 674]

I've been in both, size 6. There is no difference in length as the length of the last is the same but the vapour has a narrower heel which if you have a wide heel means the foot may not sit as deep in the heel pocket and therefore the boot seems to be a shorter foot length (note that a D width compared to a EE are sometimes different in length). Not sure why you think the heel lock is better in a supreme, they are a wider fit thru the heel and if she has a narrow heel then a vapour would be better. If the pain is on the outside of the foot then I doubt it is a volume issue (pain is more likely to be on top of her foot around the 4th to top eyelet region) if she has been in the skates for a while. More likely the skate or her feet have changed over time. If the pain is on the outside and the boots still fit and work well, then get the boot punched / stretched / widened for her feet

[Innocent Bystander 5]

I believe her feet have changed over time.  She is at the age where she is not necessarily getting taller, but thicker.  The reason I thought going to Supreme was a good solution is because was exactly what a friend did for his daughter experiencing the same thing. In terms of the heel lock, I have read on numerous threads here that the Supreme line has a tighter heel lock, with a wide midfoot and toe box.  Here is one such example:

"Vapors - Narrower at the toe, wider at the heel and ankle area.

Supremes - Wider at the toe, snugger at the ankle heel area. For a wider foot."

However, in reading the IW blog, I see this:

Vapor: Looking closer at the Vapor line, you’ll feel more of a leaned over, aggressive stance that is geared towards the quick and crafty players who skate hard and need to change direction quickly. The Vapor is considered to have a tapered fit, meaning it has a narrow, V-fit in the heel for excellent heel lock.

Supreme: The Supreme lineup is based around explosive power; geared for top-end, coast-to-coast speed. The boot is going to feel more anatomical, so it will feel like a 360º wrap around your foot for the best responsiveness. The overall volume is medium-high volume, so it will be slightly larger in some areas than the Vapor series, but you will still get a close, medium volume in the heel, across the forefoot and toebox.

Nexus: Last but not least we have the Nexus series, which will be the most traditional fitting skate of the Bauer skates. This skate is constructed for overall power and will have the highest volume of any Bauer skate, but with a narrow heel, medium-high forefoot and toe box.

Either way, I believe the Supreme line could fix her pain problems.  Thank you for the input.  It was very helpful.

[vinprun71 61]

2 hours ago, Innocent Bystander said:

I believe her feet have changed over time.  She is at the age where she is not necessarily getting taller, but thicker.  The reason I thought going to Supreme was a good solution is because was exactly what a friend did for his daughter experiencing the same thing. In terms of the heel lock, I have read on numerous threads here that the Supreme line has a tighter heel lock, with a wide midfoot and toe box.  Here is one such example:

"Vapors - Narrower at the toe, wider at the heel and ankle area.

Supremes - Wider at the toe, snugger at the ankle heel area. For a wider foot."

However, in reading the IW blog, I see this:

Vapor: Looking closer at the Vapor line, you’ll feel more of a leaned over, aggressive stance that is geared towards the quick and crafty players who skate hard and need to change direction quickly. The Vapor is considered to have a tapered fit, meaning it has a narrow, V-fit in the heel for excellent heel lock.

Supreme: The Supreme lineup is based around explosive power; geared for top-end, coast-to-coast speed. The boot is going to feel more anatomical, so it will feel like a 360º wrap around your foot for the best responsiveness. The overall volume is medium-high volume, so it will be slightly larger in some areas than the Vapor series, but you will still get a close, medium volume in the heel, across the forefoot and toebox.

Nexus: Last but not least we have the Nexus series, which will be the most traditional fitting skate of the Bauer skates. This skate is constructed for overall power and will have the highest volume of any Bauer skate, but with a narrow heel, medium-high forefoot and toe box.

Either way, I believe the Supreme line could fix her pain problems.  Thank you for the input.  It was very helpful.

Just to help you with the fit here, seeing as I've owned a Vapor series of skates and Supreme.  I've also tried on a pair of Nexus. The Vapor is a wide toe box and progressively narrows all the way to the heel. The Vapor has the least volume. Many claim the Vapor has the tightest heel. The Supreme is a regular fit in the toe and middle of the boot. The heel is slightly wider than the Vapor with a medium volume boot depth. The Nexus is the widest boot all around. It's also the deepest boot in regards to volume.

Typically, issues with the fit on the side of the foot would be the width of the boot. Your daughter would benefit from either an EE in Vapor or trying a D in Supreme. Keep in mind, volume/depth is more about the  heel of your foot to ankle across. Too little boot depth, the higher the chance of lace bite. Since your daughter's issue is specifically about the side of the foot, I'd continue to believe this is about width not depth. I could be wrong. Regardless, I'd have her try both on. She'll know almost right away.

[Vet88 674]

3 hours ago, Innocent Bystander said:

Either way, I believe the Supreme line could fix her pain problems.  Thank you for the input.  It was very helpful.

It may fix the pain in the side of the foot but it's not going to give her a better overall fit. You already know she fits into a narrow heel vapour boot and the volume appears to be ok because she has no lace bite, now you are going to put her into a bigger fitting supreme boot (more heel space and volume)??? Top of the line boots stretch well, make sure the heel and volume fit are correct then get the skate stretched (widened) to sort out width issues, any half decent LHS can do it and it's not expensive.

[Kgbeast 195]

"Supreme have tighter heel-lock than Vapor" sounds like a bs. You've probably read it in the same place where it says that RibCor is the widest and the roomiest skate available from CCM.

[Innocent Bystander 5]

She had SEVERE lace bite when she first got them, which is a first for her.  I should have mentioned that, although I did not think of it until vet88 and just mentioned it.  This was her first pair of Bauer skates.  Her previous skates were S16, S17, RS and Tacks.  She did not experience any comfort issues with any of those skates.  I think one important thing I have learned here is that the Tacks line fits close to the Supreme line and that skate just fit perfectly from day one.  Why doesn't she stick with Tacks you ask?  We had some durability issues with them that I am not comfortable spending that kind of money on again.  Now, she loved the skate and I hope they have solved those problems because, as I said, it was the most comfortable boot she has yet to try on.  She has been spoiled with top of the line skates since she was 12, and now that she is at the end of her growth, I see no reason not to invest in a a top of line skate that will last her for 3-4 years.   Anyone have input on the MX3 vs 1S?

Thanks again for all of the replies.  So very helpful, all of them.

[vinprun71 61]

To my understanding, the older Tacks boot is more like a Nexus boot than it is a Supreme. The Supreme boot would be similar to a Jetspeed. I'm glad you stated the lacebite issue. That helps clarify an important detail. Have her try on a D width Supreme boot and go from there. If it bothers the side of the foot but not the area where lacebite would occur, then try an EE Supreme. Worst case scenario, you toss on a D Nexus. 

As for the two different Supreme boots. I've yet to try on a 1S, but I personally own a pair of MX3. They fit my feet much better than the Vapor APX I had previously. When comparing the MX3 and 1S, outside of the new tendon guard in the back, the steel, and the look of the boot itself, I don't see too many differences between the two boots. If you can find a good deal on a pair of MX3, you'd be making a good purchasing decision.

[Innocent Bystander 5]

MX3's are on sale right now, but I have to admit I am not a fan of the Fusion Steel.  Going to LS3 is a $70 upgrade right off the bat.  While I tend to agree with you on the differences being very incremental, I have RARELY seen an upgrade from the previous generation actually be worse than the generation it is replacing.  I feel like the 1S may be a safe bet... if they fit as well as I tend to think they will.

The Tacks may fit more like Nexus in comparison now, but that would be since they changed to a narrower boot from the RBZ to the JetSpeed.  My understanding was that the way it was back when the RBZ was still in rotation that the equivalencies were:

RBZ - Nexus
Tacks - Supreme
Ribcor - Vapor

I am not sure where the JetSpeed fits into that now.  Maybe it slides in between the Tacks and Ribcor lines.

[IW Team - Chase 184]

55 minutes ago, Innocent Bystander said:

RBZ - Nexus
Tacks - Supreme
Ribcor - Vapor

I am not sure where the JetSpeed fits into that now.  Maybe it slides in between the Tacks and Ribcor lines.

 

Replace RibCor with JetSpeed and slide RibCor down to it's own line at the bottom. 

[Innocent Bystander 5]

So in essence, Nexus stands alone in terms of fit as it is for those of us with Fred Flinstone feet?

[vinprun71 61]

1 hour ago, Innocent Bystander said:

MX3's are on sale right now, but I have to admit I am not a fan of the Fusion Steel.  Going to LS3 is a $70 upgrade right off the bat.  While I tend to agree with you on the differences being very incremental, I have RARELY seen an upgrade from the previous generation actually be worse than the generation it is replacing.  I feel like the 1S may be a safe bet... if they fit as well as I tend to think they will.

The Tacks may fit more like Nexus in comparison now, but that would be since they changed to a narrower boot from the RBZ to the JetSpeed.  My understanding was that the way it was back when the RBZ was still in rotation that the equivalencies were:

RBZ - Nexus
Tacks - Supreme
Ribcor - Vapor

I am not sure where the JetSpeed fits into that now.  Maybe it slides in between the Tacks and Ribcor lines.

Can I ask what you don't like about the Fusion steel? I've been skating on it for almost a year now. I have zero complaints.

[Innocent Bystander 5]

1) LS3 and LS4 both set up a bit, something like 3-4mm

2) The fusion steel has been known to fail/warp where the two metals are joined.  It has not happened, but then again she didn't skate on it much,

3) As soon as I replaced them with LS3 steel, my daughter immediately noticed that she glided better... which brings me to my last reason

4) It didn't seem to hold an edge for her.  I was sharpening it after 3-4 hours of skating whereas the LS3 steel seems to go 6-8 hours between cuts

 

I am sure everyone's mileage will vary.  That is just our experience.

[vinprun71 61]

Okay. Some of those are valid. I could be wrong, but wouldn't it make more sense to buy MX3s for cheaper than a 1S and skate on the Fusion. If they break, you buy new steel for $70 instead of spending 2-300 more on a 1S for the steel? Just trying to save you a buck here. I sharpen my MX3s maybe once every few months. I skate two-three times a week. Possible that your daughter could go less deep on the hollow to prevent failed edges?

[althoma1 575]

It'd make even more sense to go with the Supreme 190 skates that come with LS3 if the Supreme is in fact the right fit. Those can be had for even less than the MX3 and the boot is the same - the key differences are the lacing system (some people have had durability issues with the injected lacing) and the steel.

[IW Team - Chase 184]

4 hours ago, Innocent Bystander said:

So in essence, Nexus stands alone in terms of fit as it is for those of us with Fred Flinstone feet?

Pretty much. I'm a Nexus D but can squeeze into Supreme EE but have really been enjoying Super Tacks EE's. 

[Innocent Bystander 5]

My daughter plays for a prep school and they actually get some pretty decent deals on equipment.  I am not going to spend $200-300 more than MX3, otherwise I absolutely agree with you.  I see no sense in spending THAT much more, although the incremental difference is bearable thanks to the equipments deals.

As for going with a different edge, I have tried.  She currently is getting them cut at 7/16".  3/8" had too much bite and 1/2" she seems to lose her edge on tight turns.  I am sure she could get used to either one of those.  I had her at 1/2" and the Fusion steel would still not hold and edge for her.  With LS3, a 7/16" cut will hold an edge for quite some time.  There is just a difference in the quality of the steel I think.  

[Innocent Bystander 5]

Just a quick update on this.  First of all, thank you all for your input.  It was all insightful and really helped us go in the right direction.

My daughter tried on a friend's Supreme 190 skates in her current size, size 5, and while the length was the same, the fit was more comfortable for her.  We ended up going with the same size skate as her APX2 skates (size 5), only in Supreme 1S, and the fit is perfect for her.  This really drove home the importance of making sure that ALL aspects of fit are correct, not just length.  She has been more comfortable in these since the very first skate.  If there is lace bite, I think that should be the #1 sign that you need to go to a larger volume boot.