Skate Fitting and bone contusion

[auswegian 0]

**Probably posted this in the wrong area**

Greetings from Australia!

I recently picked up the Bauer Vapor 1X's after a fitting at my LHS. I'm usually a U.S. 10-10.5's in shoe sizes, so was quite surprised when I was fit into 6.5 EE's; and while my toes were initially jammed in the toe box, after a bake, and standing in a hockey stance, I wasn't brushing up against the toe cap anymore.

My first day on the ice a few days later was excruciating on the outside knuckles of my big toes. The feel-good baked fit at the store, was replaced by a cooling boot that contracted to form "ridges" that dug into the sides of my feet, seemingly crunching my bones. I dreaded going to practice and games, but was told that this was common, and the break in period could take months. 

Fast forward 2 months, after doing the whole "break-in" period, followed by  another bake, the skates seem to fit worse than ever. The left foot seems "fine," although I have to keep the bottom laces extremely loose (and even then my foot feels to be in a vice). However, now I have a bone contusion in the joint of my big toe on my right foot. I've now done a wide punch out of the boot, which again seemed great in store, and after a cool down feels worse than before... (I've done the whole skip the bottom lace socket trick too)

What are my options here, can the actual toe box be stretched? Assuming I can find a buyer who it now fits, what brands/models are known for a wider toe box?

 

[Kgbeast 195]

Mistake #1 is that you went forth with baking after you knew that the skates feel too small. Baking does not fix length, width, and heel lock issues. Also if your wear size 10 in shoes, you should not be considering skates under 8. Toebox punch out is viable only in theory, in practical terms however, it is not as you can not stretch outsole and the holder.

Mistake #2 is that you have continued skating for 2 month, punching out, and rebaking. Selling those might be an impossible task after all this, but it is probably the best thing that you can try.

Your sock there seems a bit thick, but I doubt wearing a dress sock or similar will be the fix.

I would say your LHS has dropped a ball here, but not without your fault. 

Here is a video that shows fitting if the skates. Do that and see how your skates do.

 

[Vet88 674]

5 hours ago, auswegian said:

What are my options here, can the actual toe box be stretched? Assuming I can find a buyer who it now fits, what brands/models are known for a wider toe box?

A toe box punch is possible if you have the right tools. There is a member here (custom skateworkz if I remember right) who has built a specific tool for toe box punches. Myself I have stretched many a toe box using just c clamps, a frame to hold the boot, VERY careful use of a heat gun and a lot of time (we are talking around a week per toe box stretch as it has to be done slowly). And shoe size should really not be used in any relative way to determine your skate size other than a very rough guide, not only do shoe manufacturers use different sizings between themselves but people have a totally different view as to what fits them comfortably versus what theoretical size they should actually wear. the only way to determine if the skate fits you properly is to try them on and to arm yourself with the knowledge of how a skate should fit so you know what you are looking for.

There are a number of things for you to consider. If the boot fits you for width and length everywhere else (you don't mention any other pressure points and you say the length is fine) then another bake isn't what you are after, specific punches or stretches are what you need to fix the issue (other than buying another pair of skates). Another big toe punch is one way if your LHS can do it. I'd suggest they didn't stretch it far enough last time (or in the right place), you need to overstretch these areas because often after a punch / stretch the boot will shrink slightly back towards its original shape.  Or consider a forefoot punch on the outside of the boot just behind the toe box, this will open the boot up allowing the foot to move slightly to the outside and therefore relieving the pressure on the big toe. If you have a measuring gauge this can help as you can measure the amount the boot has stretched, from past experience you would be looking at wanting a couple of mm to relieve the pressure but may need more if you have developed a large contusion (and this isn't good news long term as it doesn't go away but foot surgery in this area is generally highly successful).

Looking at your foot shape I'm slightly surprised they put you into vapours, you look much more like a supreme shape (especially in the ankle area) or even possibly a nexus in a D width (nexus have a wider toe box). Do you pass the pencil test in vapours? (put a pencil across the boot between the 2nd to 3rd eyelets, if it touches your foot then the boots can be considered too shallow for you which after a while may lead to lace bite when the tongue begins to break down. Note this isn't terminal for the boot as lace extenders fix this issue).

There is another thing that can cause a difference in fit from shop to ice. Do you pronate at all? When the foot rolls inwards in the boot this causes pressure on 4 main points of the foot - the outside of the big toe and the side of the forefoot just behind the big toe, the top of the little toe and outside of the forefoot just behind the little toe, the inner ankle bone and the outside quarter of your achillies tendon (leading to the dreaded haglunds or Bauer bump). If you pronate you may want to consider some kind of insole for arch and heel support, stabilising the foot in the boot does go a long way to helping pronation but if it offers a complete fix depends on the amount you pronate.

Another idea is to protect the toe using a small pad cut to size from something like soft silicon gel pad or closed cell neoprene (the stuff wetsuits are made from, 3mm thick is good). This works very well (I speak from long experience) but the downside is you have to tape your toe each skate (unless the you get the gel big toe protectors that slip on over the toe, try alibaba) but it is a very quick fix for you to try whilst you look for other answers. 

[auswegian 0]

On 11/13/2016 at 6:14 PM, Kgbeast said:

Mistake #1 is that you went forth with baking after you knew that the skates feel too small. Baking does not fix length, width, and heel lock issues. Also if your wear size 10 in shoes, you should not be considering skates under 8. Toebox punch out is viable only in theory, in practical terms however, it is not as you can not stretch outsole and the holder.

Mistake #2 is that you have continued skating for 2 month, punching out, and rebaking. Selling those might be an impossible task after all this, but it is probably the best thing that you can try.

Your sock there seems a bit thick, but I doubt wearing a dress sock or similar will be the fix.

I would say your LHS has dropped a ball here, but not without your fault. 

Here is a video that shows fitting if the skates. Do that and see how your skates do.

 

While the intent of the post was not to complain about my LHS, I don't believe mistake 1 and 2 were my fault. As someone who had never had a ice-skate fitted before, I asked to be fit into the skate I wanted, and was told that after a bake (which we did at the time of purchase) and time on the ice would fix any fitting issues. This was "confirmed" by some of my old high school mates that were used to the old days of playing through pain for months on end. I came back a few times to complain about the pain, but was referred to just keep on trucking through it, so, I begrudgingly obliged.

However, there is a point I must concede: I DID ask specifically for the Vapor 1X's because they were a bit cheaper, and had a more aggressive stance. It wasn't until the responses I got on this post that I realised the boot was too shallow for my arches (I didn't even realise that was a thing), and I fail the pencil test completely.

The reason for the thicker socks is simply, it eased the pain (albeit slightly), acting as a buffer between my foot and the skate wall.

Thanks for the video, it gave me quite a bit of insight into the fitting process, hindsight 20/20 and all, wish I knew what to ask for prior to spending the money :(

22 hours ago, Vet88 said:

A toe box punch is possible if you have the right tools. There is a member here (custom skateworkz if I remember right) who has built a specific tool for toe box punches. Myself I have stretched many a toe box using just c clamps, a frame to hold the boot, VERY careful use of a heat gun and a lot of time (we are talking around a week per toe box stretch as it has to be done slowly). And shoe size should really not be used in any relative way to determine your skate size other than a very rough guide, not only do shoe manufacturers use different sizings between themselves but people have a totally different view as to what fits them comfortably versus what theoretical size they should actually wear. the only way to determine if the skate fits you properly is to try them on and to arm yourself with the knowledge of how a skate should fit so you know what you are looking for.

There are a number of things for you to consider. If the boot fits you for width and length everywhere else (you don't mention any other pressure points and you say the length is fine) then another bake isn't what you are after, specific punches or stretches are what you need to fix the issue (other than buying another pair of skates). Another big toe punch is one way if your LHS can do it. I'd suggest they didn't stretch it far enough last time (or in the right place), you need to overstretch these areas because often after a punch / stretch the boot will shrink slightly back towards its original shape.  Or consider a forefoot punch on the outside of the boot just behind the toe box, this will open the boot up allowing the foot to move slightly to the outside and therefore relieving the pressure on the big toe. If you have a measuring gauge this can help as you can measure the amount the boot has stretched, from past experience you would be looking at wanting a couple of mm to relieve the pressure but may need more if you have developed a large contusion (and this isn't good news long term as it doesn't go away but foot surgery in this area is generally highly successful).

Looking at your foot shape I'm slightly surprised they put you into vapours, you look much more like a supreme shape (especially in the ankle area) or even possibly a nexus in a D width (nexus have a wider toe box). Do you pass the pencil test in vapours? (put a pencil across the boot between the 2nd to 3rd eyelets, if it touches your foot then the boots can be considered too shallow for you which after a while may lead to lace bite when the tongue begins to break down. Note this isn't terminal for the boot as lace extenders fix this issue).

There is another thing that can cause a difference in fit from shop to ice. Do you pronate at all? When the foot rolls inwards in the boot this causes pressure on 4 main points of the foot - the outside of the big toe and the side of the forefoot just behind the big toe, the top of the little toe and outside of the forefoot just behind the little toe, the inner ankle bone and the outside quarter of your achillies tendon (leading to the dreaded haglunds or Bauer bump). If you pronate you may want to consider some kind of insole for arch and heel support, stabilising the foot in the boot does go a long way to helping pronation but if it offers a complete fix depends on the amount you pronate.

Another idea is to protect the toe using a small pad cut to size from something like soft silicon gel pad or closed cell neoprene (the stuff wetsuits are made from, 3mm thick is good). This works very well (I speak from long experience) but the downside is you have to tape your toe each skate (unless the you get the gel big toe protectors that slip on over the toe, try alibaba) but it is a very quick fix for you to try whilst you look for other answers. 

This was extremely helpful bit of information. I fail the pencil test completely, but am unsure if I pronate, but am staring at 4 little bumps on all sides you mentioned, so I would be inclined to say it's highly likely.

I have attached a rough outline and measurement of my foot, and a rough trace of the instep left on the paper, if you (or anyone else for that matter) could make a determination of what kind of boot would most likely fit my foot. My LHS only carries Bauer, and I would have to travel quiet far to try anything else on. I measured from heel edge to big toe, subtract 12-15mm for heel pocket to big toe.

Length: 264.5mm

Width at the widest: 110mm

Heel Width: ~70mm

Arch height from floor: ~82.5mm

 

[auswegian 0]

Another thing, we do have a Fit to Purpose consumer law here in Australia, but I'd rather not go down that path if I could get these to fit / get them sold. There are only so many skate shops in all of Australia, and I'd rather not sour my relationship with the only one within 1000km's

[Vet88 674]

A 1X (or any recent top of the line Bauer skate) is ultra stiff and wearing it till it breaks in doesn't really work anymore. These things need to be punched / stretched / baked if your foot isn't a good neutral fit. 

Looking at your heel shape I would be trying you in a supreme or nexus fit BUT fitting into a narrow vapour heel isn't a bad thing. I rate heel lock and no negative space around the heel as the most important fit of the boot. Then length, then general overall surrounding fit then volume. Squeezing a wider shaped heel into a vapour is not a bad thing if the boot widens for your heel. Does your heel feel locked in place? Do you feel as though you can wiggle your heel side to side in the boot when on the ice (say after 30 minutes of skating and lots of edge work)? Do you have any pressure points in the heel when skating or red spots afterwards? If the heel is good the rest of the boot can generally be managed, as far as I'm concerned I want a player in a narrow boot to start with because I know that, with time, I can always widen the boot to make it fit, You can't make a boot smaller without a hell of a lot of effort (I have turned the heel pocket of supremes into a vapour shape but it takes foot moulds, multiple clamps, outside boot shapers, heat guns and a lot of work to get it right).

With 1X skates you have a top of the line boot that will tolerate a lot of stretching. Looking at your foot diagram you have a number of bumps that need punching in the boot to accommodate them, a bake will not deal with these. See here where I've stretched a boot around 1cm outwards (between 1st and 2nd eyelet) on the outside to accommodate a bump like yours behind the little toe:

 

For pronation there are a couple of obvious signs to look for - in your normal shoes do you wear the outside of the heel more than the inside of the heel? In skates, does your tongue twist to the outside after a while in your skates? Next time on the ice, skate in a straight line whilst balanced on one foot and then close your eyes. Do you stay skating straight or do your curve to one side or the other? You have bumps around your foot that need to be dealt with by punching the boot and are not related to pronation, but pronation may make the pain in these bumps slightly worse for you.

Personally I'd stick with these boots in the meantime, just keep working on them one issue at a time. When you get it right they will be like a custom fitted boot and worth the effort. If you want to stretch them yourself at home I can show you how with around $20 of tools from Bunnings and time. And I can show you how to deal with volume for these, this costs around $10 if you do it yourself and you get much better forward flex. If you can't be bothered with doing anything yourself or pestering the LHS to get it right then I'd suggest trying on Nexus and Supremes and then selling the vapours. We have a similar law across the ditch but trying to get it to work for a poorly fitted skate boot would be hard work, the boot is still fit for purpose ie ice skating and hockey.

 

[Vet88 674]

ps - here's a simple test for your foot fit. Get a vernier caliper (or use a very large paper clip) and measure the width of your feet behind the toes, from bump to bump. then measure the width of your boots in that area and then ask yourself how your feet are meant to comfortably fit in them..... By recollection you are going to need around a 1cm+ punch (and maybe in multiple areas) in a 6.5EE vapour boot to fit a 11cm wide forefoot.

[puckpilot 312]

I use to have a pair of Vapor XXX where I had lots of fitting problems. The skate was wide enough but the toebox formed a pressure point where it connected with the rest of the skate. Hurt like hell. I addressed the pressure point with the toebox by putting some extra padding over the connection point between the toebox and the boot.

It wasn't anything fancy. It was just some blister padding designed for the heels of walking shoes that I found at the pharmacy.  Installation was like placing a sticker over the area.

 

 

Another more expensive option you can try is Bunga pads.  http://www.bungapads.com/bunga-bunion-gel-cushion-bgc.html

I don't used this particular one, but I've use the ones for the heel with my Vapor XXX, and I'm currently using the ones for the ankles for my current skates because they're a bit old and the lining has worn away a bit. For me, these things have been awesome. Hopefully some of this helps.   

 

 

[Kgbeast 195]

7 hours ago, auswegian said:

Length: 264.5mm

Width at the widest: 110mm

Heel Width: ~70mm

Arch height from floor: ~82.5mm

 

 

I am not sure about Bauer, but in Graf the holder size (in my case 288) is the length of my foot. This is a pretty simple fit test. If my foot was 298mm long, then the skates with 288 holder is basically 2 sizes too small. Bauer in size 10, is my size... Holders on 10R Bauer skates are also size 288.

In you case, if you flip the skates and look at the spot between the copper and steel rivet of the heel post, you will see 254L or 254R (I think, I might be wrong). Your measurement according to the drawing is 264.5. Now, this math does not add up to me. It is 10.5mm (almost 1/2 inch) too short for you based on this. 

Size 7 bauer uses size 263 holders, which is 1.5mm too short still, but perhaps passable.  Size 7.5 also uses 263 holders. Size 7.5 and 8 uses the next size up holder size which is 272, just looking at that, I would speculate that the correct length skates from Bauer, would be 7.5 for you. To make sure, take the insole out and put your foot on it (like in the video). See if the toes hanging over the front.

Not passing pencil test, will be a problem. It is not just a lacebite, but also applying too much pressure around the top of your foot and possibly constricting blood vessels running along the top of your foot. I have a pair of skates, I do not pass pencil test by about 1/2" and it is always a pain in the bottom of my foot after a little bit of skating.

Vet88 usually talks a lot of sense and is well respected and valuable member in MSH, but his suggestion of sticking with boot that is too short , too shallow in the instep, and too narrow at the heel, I would say is out of character.

The skates in the photo you have posted, appear to be in like new shape, I would think you can sell them and recover most of the money. Also, LHS (as I said in my original post) did drop a ball here and should probably take a bite of this shit sandwich. If you come back to them and point that boot is too short too narrow and too shallow, after their professional fitment, it is not your fault as a new buyer. It is like buying tires. If you go to a tire shop and tell them which tires you want, they will not sell them to you unless, they fit on the wheels you have. This is why you went to their store instead of buying on-line. This is the reason they are around. If they do as much as you can do with google or even less, why the f you would buy the product from LHS for 30% to 50% higher price?

 

 

[althoma1 574]

It is surprising that someone with a foot of those measurements would fit into a 6.5EE skate, but he does say they're OK lengthwise after baking. The 6.5D skates use the 254mm holders, but I believe the 6.5EE uses 263mm holders. 7.5EE Bauers use 272mm holders. Bauer goes one holder size up for their EE skates in half sizes.

My feet measure approximately 267mm lengthwise, 130mm at their widest point (forefoot - just before the toes), and 55mm at the heel barefoot and I can just squeeze into 7.5EE Bauer Supremes (but get pressure in the toe box area and heel lift) and 7.5D in an older Nexus model that uses a 263mm holder. I have very wide forefoot and the toe box in a lot of skates can give me issues; the only two recent skates that I've tried on that have given me a comfortable fit in the forefoot are EE Makos and D width Nexus skates (I believe it was the old Nexus 800 I tried on), but my heel lifted like crazy in the D width Nexus skates. I'm currently in 8EE Makos and am quite happy with the fit - the toe box is anatomical and not just a standard U shape so it's very comfortable and my heel is still locked in - they have 272mm holders. I could've squeezed into 7.5EE Makos with 263mm holders, but my toe would've been pressed against the cap instead of just barely brushing like they are with the 8EE's. I tried on both a 7.5EE and 8EE CCM Supertacks skate not too long ago and the heel lock was great in both, but the forefoot was too tight (immense pressure in the 7.5 and still significant painful pressure in the toe box in the 8's).

Each foot is different, but based on measurements alone I would've guessed that a 7 or 7.5 skate would've been the proper length for the OP, but it's hard to refute his own statement that the 6.5EE's feel long enough after baking. The toe box area isn't wide enough and if stretching it is unsuccessful then looking for a skate that fits better in that area makes sense. I think a EE Mako would be a reasonable option to consider if he can find one (especially the Mako II, M8 or M7 - the original Mako does have durability issues; so I'd only grab those as a last resort if you can get them for dirt cheap), but they aren't particularly deep skates; so those might not be ideal either. The Supremes in EE or Nexus in D may also lock his heel in better than mine since his heels are wider and each foot is different. The Supertacks in EE may also be an option for the OP because his forefoot isn't as freakishly wide as mine.

[Vet88 674]

For the OP, here is how I get someone to test for length. Take the laces out of the boot, pull the tongue completely out (this prevents the boot from restricting the foot in any way), slide your foot into the boot and push the foot forward until the toes are just brushing the toe box. Toes should not be curled up. Now see if you can slide a pencil down the back of your heel between the heel and the boot. Ideally you should have between 1mm - 2mm of gap between the boot and the back of your heel, this is a good length fit. Others do like slightly more in length to back the  toes off the toe box in case of puck strikes. If you can fit a pencil down the back of your heel then the boot is at least a 1/2 size to large for you.

I agree with others that, based on the measurements you have posted, the boot seems to small. However I put this down to the mistake most people make when doing tracings and they over extend the edges because of the pencil shape. The way I measure for length is to put a piece of A4 paper against a wall, stand on this with your heel against the wall, mark the end of your longest toe using something with a straight edge like a ruler. Now measure from the mark to the edge of the paper and you have your length for a foot. Also do both feet as one is often longer than the other. I'm 255mm and have an ideal fit in 6D supremes and can get away with a 6.5D vapour. A EE is generally about 2mm longer than a D (unless the lasts have changed length from the TO lines when I last measured this) but if your foot is around 263mm in length then a 6.5EE is to small for you. 

Now if your measurements are true and the shop measured you then I think you have a complaint to make as you were trusting them to size you correctly.

[althoma1 574]

I measured the length of my feet exactly the way Vet88 described and agree that measuring by simply tracing your foot may lead to inaccurate results. So definitely make sure you measure your length the way he's outlined above if you haven't already.

[Vet88 674]

He may actually be very close even with the measurements he has posted. I'm 255mm in a 6D, add 5mm for a 1/2 size and then another 2mm for a EE last, now we are at 262mm. Say he made a 1mm over measurement error at both ends and now we are at 264mm, not far off his posted 264.45mm. So a 7.5 is going to be too big, a 7 maybe if he has under measured but, to the way I would fit someone in skates, a 6.5EE could be just about right for length.

[auswegian 0]

15 hours ago, Vet88 said:

For pronation there are a couple of obvious signs to look for - in your normal shoes do you wear the outside of the heel more than the inside of the heel? In skates, does your tongue twist to the outside after a while in your skates? Next time on the ice, skate in a straight line whilst balanced on one foot and then close your eyes. Do you stay skating straight or do your curve to one side or the other? You have bumps around your foot that need to be dealt with by punching the boot and are not related to pronation, but pronation may make the pain in these bumps slightly worse for you.

Looking at all my shoes the outside heel is definitely worn a lot more than the inside. I'm taking a few weeks off skating to let my feet heal, so I won't be able to check that any time soon.

 

3 hours ago, Vet88 said:

The way I measure for length is to put a piece of A4 paper against a wall, stand on this with your heel against the wall, mark the end of your longest toe using something with a straight edge like a ruler. Now measure from the mark to the edge of the paper and you have your length for a foot.

I'm measuring 263.5-264mm on the left side and 265-266mm on the right side. Also regarding the fit, They don't 'feather' the front cap when standing, they are smashed up on it. The left foot retracts but the right foot always feathers when in hockey stance.

Attached are some photos of the pencil test, the heel locks in great, and can't get so much as a needle between the heel and the boot, the pen/cil on goes to the top of ankle. However, as you can see, the top of the foot doesn't allow the pencil to rest on the eyelets.

 

8 hours ago, Kgbeast said:

In you case, if you flip the skates and look at the spot between the copper and steel rivet of the heel post, you will see 254L or 254R (I think, I might be wrong). Your measurement according to the drawing is 264.5. Now, this math does not add up to me. It is 10.5mm (almost 1/2 inch) too short for you based on this. 

Size 7 bauer uses size 263 holders, which is 1.5mm too short still, but perhaps passable.  Size 7.5 also uses 263 holders. Size 7.5 and 8 uses the next size up holder size which is 272, just looking at that, I would speculate that the correct length skates from Bauer, would be 7.5 for you. To make sure, take the insole out and put your foot on it (like in the video). See if the toes hanging over the front.

 

 

The holder is a 263L

[Vet88 674]

You have a couple of issues. Length - Based on your right foot the boot you are in at the moment is too short for you. Volume - you are busting out of those skates, they are way too shallow for you. I'd be going back to the shop, explaining that the fit is not right on these 2 counts and trying on a Nexus 7D like the 1N. Your left foot would be around a 1/2 size off but that is still acceptable. If the heel lock and volume is good but the boot still pinches then get it punched. Another option would be a CCM super Tacks 7EE but the volume may not be enough.

[auswegian 0]

On 11/15/2016 at 10:56 PM, Vet88 said:

You have a couple of issues. Length - Based on your right foot the boot you are in at the moment is too short for you. Volume - you are busting out of those skates, they are way too shallow for you. I'd be going back to the shop, explaining that the fit is not right on these 2 counts and trying on a Nexus 7D like the 1N. Your left foot would be around a 1/2 size off but that is still acceptable. If the heel lock and volume is good but the boot still pinches then get it punched. Another option would be a CCM super Tacks 7EE but the volume may not be enough.

Thanks a lot for the info mate. After speaking to my LHS they gave me a couple of options that I am satisfied with, punch the boot and/or offer new skates at cost (I think that's reasonable). I opted for the punching out after trying on the 1S (same problem in various sizes) and 1N (too deep, massive arch pain, and still failed the pencil test '???') The punch seemed to solve most of the problems, but I won't be able to skate in them for a few more weeks until my foot heals.

If this goes to shit, I'm just going to order a custom molded boot from a 3D scan.

[Vet88 674]

By how much did you fail the pencil test in the 1N, across say 1 eyelet or a lot of eyelets like in the 1X? Not sure what you mean by "too deep"? Did they punch for length or just width because if not for length then your toes will still be squashed. I know a pro who used to play in Canada a while ago and he used to always buy skates that fitted his left foot for length (the smaller one) and then get the right one lengthened. They would heat the toe cap up and pull it out by 2mm - 3mm, it's a risky play because if you pull the toe cap out by too much it will not go back in and the boot is ruined.

[vinprun71 61]

Are there any other options outside of Bauer available to you?

[Kgbeast 195]

On 11/23/2016 at 7:09 PM, auswegian said:

...  after trying on the 1S (same problem in various sizes) and 1N (too deep, massive arch pain, and still failed the pencil test '???') The punch seemed to solve most of the problems, but I won't be able to skate in them for a few more weeks until my foot heals.

It is somewhat common that people fail pencil test with Bauer skates because of deep-v heep pocket design. You have to really push your foot into the back of the skate to do a pencil test, especially on something as stiff as 1N or 1S.