First time skating in Tacks (AS-V)

[Radien55 4]

I normally skate in Vapor 3X. I recently found a pair of Tacks AS-V on sale and had to try. The fit is perfect, they are wide-ish in the forefoot despite being the regular size. I also tried Jetspeed FT670 in 9R and they fit very good too. It seems CCM is more consistent with sizing across the models than Bauer, because I could not fit in the 9 fit 2, M5 Pro (it was short and narrow), while the X5 Pro fit much better.

Both my Vapors and Tacks AS-V have 280mm runners (LS3 and Step Steel) with a 10' profile, sharpened to 7/8".

To the test
Tacks are usually describes as stiff, maybe rigid is a better word. There is nothing to dampen the impacts, it's hard vs hard and they translate everything you do directly into the ice. This was a wow sensation from the first steps on the ice, immediately noticeable. The feeling is a bit harsh, you can tell they are performance focused over comfort, which is great if you have a serious NHL (read: Sunday night beer league) game coming up, maybe not if you are looking for max comfort.

Skating wise I struggled though. These put you in a very lazy stance, upright and on the heels. You can't fix that by going into a good forward lean because it creates an awkward angle between your foot, ankle and shin. I like the single 10' profile on my Vapors, but on the Tacks it felt like there is too much steel in the toe, it feels like going up a hill when you rocker through the toe. I think it is because I'm so much on my heels, it felt like I was digging out of a hole.

Between that and the lack of pitch, creating an awkward angle from foot to shin, I felt like the wrong part of the blade was in contact with the ice throughout the movement. It just felt a little bit "off" the whole time and this gave me less confidence in my edges. They also felt reluctant to turn. When doing crossovers, I couldn't get the same aggressive angle on the outside edge to the ice, it was more upright than intended. It was as if they didn't like edge work. Is this a thing, does the stiffness cause this, or is it just because I'm not used to them and my mechanics are all off?

When I skated in Supremes (S27), there was a difference, but not this extreme. I could still skate pretty well in them, compared to the Tacks.

The positive side is that the fit is amazing, there is no negative space in them and they are wide enough in front, while still providing incredible heel lock. It's one of the best fitting skates I've tried on, which is why I bought them.

I'm debating if I should keep these or change for the same tier of Vapor, or maybe Jetspeed.

Q1: Are FT6s equally on the heels or are they more pitched forward?

Q2: If I am going to continue with these. I definitely need to profile some pitch into them. Does anyone know what amount of pitch or what profile would get them close to the Vapors?

Q3: Would it be worth it to try to fix these with profiling or would it be better to change them for Vapors or Jetspeeds?

[Jbear 113]

I'd give them a couple of skates before doing anything. I Skate in AS3 Pros,  100k Pros, and Machs.  When I skated the Machs for the first time, felt just as you described...great fit, back on my heels, couldn't get my edges going, very unstable.  The next day I couldn't lift my legs without pain cuz my hip flexors were blasted.  I decided to try again before changing pitch, and the next time they felt fine.  I go back and forth between skates easily now.  

Don't be impatient, you can easily change the pitch if you prefer. 

[xstartxtodayx 343]

When I switched from Bauer w/ LSE to CCM w/ XS blades I also had that more in the heels feeling.  A friend who works at a shop mentioned the normal pitch of the blades is slightly different between the two brands/blades (I don't have the technical data to back that up but when I described the feeling she was immediately familiar with what I was describing going from one to the other).  I debated putting the Tuuks on the CCM's but figured I should try profiling at first and it made a big difference in getting that feel just right (what worked on one might not work on the other).  Last year I got new skates, CCM again, same size but they had an upsized holder which also required a little tweaking to get that comfortable feeling again (ended up going from a quad .5 on a 263 to a quad 0 on a 271).  So if I were you and the boot fits great, try tweaking the profile to get that more familiar feeling.

[flip12 715]

I have a similar experience in new Catalyst 7s. I loved the flatter steel at the heel from the first step on the ice, but just felt like I was forced upright and like there was too much steel on the toe. I swapped the stock tongues out for some with more flex and the feeling was 10x better. The tongue can have even more impact on how easily you can get in the right position over your edges than the rest of the boot.

[Radien55 4]

Wow, I'm glad I'm not the only one that has experienced this. That's a relief!

I will give them another chance and try them again later in the week, see if I can get used to them, before doing anything drastic.

[birky 24]

I switched from 2018 Vapors to the ASV skates last winter and really had no issues. Love them, although I will note that I went down half a size in the CCMs. I've always skated on a 9' radius, and more recently, a 15/30 or 20/40 cag profile. All Step steel comes with a 10' radius stock, so if you were on 10' on your Vapors, you shouldn't notice a big difference.

I would give you 3 recommendations -

1. The ASVs are STIFF. Don't tie them as tight at the top, which will give you more forward and lateral flexibility. I figured this out pretty quickly.

2. Consider aftermarket insoles like Superfeet, which should help put you more on the balls of your feet.

3. If those both fail to make a difference, take both your Vapors and your Tacks into a knowledgeable skate shop and have them try to emulate whatever profile is currently on your Vapors. I had my Vapors profiled fairly recently before buying my ASVs and I really did not experience what you're talking about, so I wonder if it's a result of how your Vapors were profiled.

[noupf 42]

As stated above, profiling the blades can help with the slight forward lean / pitch that you may be looking for.   I went from Graf Ultra G75's to the 100k Pro's and felt the same with the steel out of the box.......a little bit on my heels.  My grafs did have profiled steel in them ( pro sharp ellipse 1 ), but i had the pitch removed bc of the aggressive forward lean that are built into graf skates.  After getting an ellipse 1 profile with the default 20mm pitch left in the profile, It was a seamless transition to my 100k pro's.  Best skates I've ever owned. 

[VegasHockey 1280]

On 12/15/2023 at 12:49 PM, Radien55 said:

Q1: Are FT6s equally on the heels or are they more pitched forward?

Q2: If I am going to continue with these. I definitely need to profile some pitch into them. Does anyone know what amount of pitch or what profile would get them close to the Vapors?

Q3: Would it be worth it to try to fix these with profiling or would it be better to change them for Vapors or Jetspeeds?

1: FT6 is a softer boot which allows more forward flex. This will give the feeling you are more on the balls of your feet. 

2: As others mentioned, you would need to bring both the old and new steel in to a knowledgeable store so they can copy the profile.

3: That depends on you, as this is a debatable question. If you want to spend the time to get the skates dialed in, because you like them, then keep them. 

I am a huge believer in the "If it ain't broke, don't fix it.” If you know what kind of skate you like, and have been using such skate, why change things? 

[Radien55 4]

I skated in them again today and I have to say they are amazing skates, the fit is really good. I didn't have the same problem getting on my edges so maybe I've already adjusted or I had an "off" day last time. The skates still have certain characteristics though, which makes them like and dislike certain movements.

The marketing is kind of true, but I am not sure if it is because of the skate or the pitch. If I judge them as they are, the Tacks want you to skate a certain way and it rewards that. Long strides, crossovers in wide turns with speed, straight forward or backwards with speed, they are very fast, speed is the keyword for these skates. If I try to skate like I do with the Vapors; many fast but short crossovers in rapid succession, it doesn't like it and it feels like I'm working against the skate. The steel at the toe is like going up a hill, it does not flow thru the motion as well as the Vapors. The skate is not ready to go up on the toe after a short stride, it begs you to take longer strides. When you have taken a long stride, the skate is ready and it flows through the motion smoothly, rockering from heel to toe.

Upon further thinking. I attribute this to the pitch of the boot and the angle it creates between your legs and feet. My weight is more on the middle of the blade, (in a neutral and in a upright position) and in the Vapors my weight is in front of the middle of the blade. The latter makes the skate "ready" for rockering through the toe after a shorter stride.

I think I can profile (suggestions are welcome) an extra set of steel for the Tacks, to have more pitch and allow those movements. The pitch is something I can experience, but how much the actual boot contributes to "agility" vs "power" I cannot tell.

As they come, the Tacks are better at medium to top speed (long strides, stability, wide turns) while the Vapors are better from a stand still to medium speed (acceleration, short strides, quick moving feet).

I have test fitted many models the last month and the AS-V and AS-V Pro stand out above the rest. I really like the AS-Vs and they skate really well. I will be keeping them and invest in some extra steel to experiment with. Don't get me wrong, they skate really well with the standard 10' profile too, for what they are meant for, so I will keep the stock blades as they are and have an extra set with more pitch to change things up.

EDIT: I skated for an hour in the Tacks then directly switched to the Vapors for another 45min, to have a direct and fresh comparison with no other variables changing.

Edited December 26, 2023 by Radien55

[Radien55 4]

On 12/22/2023 at 4:21 AM, birky said:

I switched from 2018 Vapors to the ASV skates last winter and really had no issues. Love them, although I will note that I went down half a size in the CCMs. I've always skated on a 9' radius, and more recently, a 15/30 or 20/40 cag profile. All Step steel comes with a 10' radius stock, so if you were on 10' on your Vapors, you shouldn't notice a big difference.

I would give you 3 recommendations -

1. The ASVs are STIFF. Don't tie them as tight at the top, which will give you more forward and lateral flexibility. I figured this out pretty quickly.

2. Consider aftermarket insoles like Superfeet, which should help put you more on the balls of your feet.

3. If those both fail to make a difference, take both your Vapors and your Tacks into a knowledgeable skate shop and have them try to emulate whatever profile is currently on your Vapors. I had my Vapors profiled fairly recently before buying my ASVs and I really did not experience what you're talking about, so I wonder if it's a result of how your Vapors were profiled.

I started dropping an eyelet in the Vapors, they need it as the boot is so tall, it locks your leg in place and doesn't allow for much forward flex. I was so slow and immobile when they were laced all the way up, so I'm continuing this habit in the Tacks, even though it is a much shorter boot.

The top eyelet on the AS-V is level with the second from the top on the Vapors (the one I use). When I drop an eyelet in the Tacks, that's the equivalent of the third eyelet on the Vapors. It's crazy but it works because the boot is so stiff, I love it.

Edited December 26, 2023 by Radien55

[Jbear 113]

Having fitted and sold skates, and skating for extended periods in just about every top-end model, and currently bouncing back and forth between three (AS3 Pro, 100k Pro, and Machs), my observation is that marketing claims are worthless. I skate like me regardless, and I'm no less agile in Machs or Tacks than I was in 2xPros or Jetspeeds or Trues.  It is entirely about closing your eyes and skating on what feels best on your foot.  There are subtle differences and that is all they are.  If you're a strong skater with a N/S game and Vapors feel best...skate them!  Barzal may be THE most agile skater in the league...he's wearing Tacks...not an "agility skate."  Yeah...I know...they may have boot  customization but they're still Tacks.  The Machs have a flexible boot with a stiffer holder...Hyperlite is the  opposite.  Guess what...I don't notice once the puck drops. I put sized-up CCM XS holders on my Machs and I don't feel a difference when I'm skating. I just hate getting those trigger mechanism runners in and out. Also have lots of XS Blacksteel and don't want to have two systems running. 

Anyway, bottom line...if it feels good and gives you confidence on your edges...ignore the marketing. That's my take Peeps👍🏒🥅🇨🇦😎.

 

Edited December 26, 2023 by Jbear

[Radien55 4]

47 minutes ago, Jbear said:

Having fitted and sold skates, and skating for extended periods in just about every top-end model, and currently bouncing back and forth between three (AS3 Pro, 100k Pro, and Machs), my observation is that marketing claims are worthless. I skate like me regardless, and I'm no less agile in Machs or Tacks than I was in 2xPros or Jetspeeds or Trues.  It is entirely about closing your eyes and skating on what feels best on your foot.  There are subtle differences and that is all they are.  If you're a strong skater with a N/S game and Vapors feel best...skate them!  Barzal may be THE most agile skater in the league...he's wearing Tacks...not an "agility skate."  Yeah...I know...they may have boot  customization but they're still Tacks.  The Machs have a flexible boot with a stiffer holder...Hyperlite is the  opposite.  Guess what...I don't notice once the puck drops. I put sized-up CCM XS holders on my Machs and I don't feel a difference when I'm skating. I just hate getting those trigger mechanism runners in and out. Also have lots of XS Blacksteel and don't want to have two systems running. 

Anyway, bottom line...if it feels good and gives you confidence on your edges...ignore the marketing. That's my take Peeps👍🏒🥅🇨🇦😎.

 

That has been my belief too. I think the pitch of the boot, the blade and the profile makes the biggest difference to my skating. Being pitched on the toes helps acceleration during those first few steps. A single 9' or 10' allows for a lot of lateral moves while it is a bit sluggish speed-wise. A 13' has more speed but can give the feeling of being on skis, making it more difficult to change direction. etc etc.

I think I will be able to skate just as "agile" in the AS-Vs as the Vapors if I manage to replicate the pitch.

Edited December 26, 2023 by Radien55