NHLPA counter $49m

[Jim A 4]

Chadd,

I'm not expecting prices to go down, but when teams can't make a suitable profit at these prices, its a bit chilling..that's all i was saying..but i've always thought many of the newer teams out there charge way too much..if you can buy a decent seat at MSG for $50...you should be able to do so anywhere in N.America

That's not going to change, no matter who "wins" the CBA war. As long as the big market teams can sell out at those prices, everyone else is going along for the ride

Many of the Euro's that are over here anyway are purely for the "cash grab" and they all talk about leaving the NHL early to play in their home country...plus there isn't that many lower rung euros who take up a 3rd or 4th line spot..everyone has their price, even Jagr who wears '68 because of the Russian invasion of his former Czech home, is playing there now...granted times have changed..but as a NY'er I can guarantee I'll never go visit Pakistan, Saudi or any other country that harbored Osama and his gang

There are other players in the NHL other than North Americans. If they could make the same amount of $ and play at "home" in Europe I think they would rather do that. Why come over to North America and play in the NHL where you might be mediocre and get a spot on a 3rd or 4th line when you are already a revered individual over in your home country and play on a 1st or 2nd line? But as for the 75% part, I agree with you on that too. But the rest of the 25% would be European players that want to play at home where some of them are their countries "National Heroes"

Dr.M my take was that its one thing to be a soccer player in europe..for them travel between the countries at times is similar to travelling to different states in the US....however many of them have families and I don't think you'll see many of the N.Americans stay home for family reasons, it was a fun way to spend a year and take a look, but no way the wife and kids let them go overseas for the year again..what the teams were paying this year to guys like Brad and Vinny, 300k per month?? comes out to about 2mil per season...can you imagine going from TB To Russia FT? go from golfing in Dec to being in sub zero temps at times??

The longer this goes and I think you will see a shift towards Europe. Look at top flite soccer, five years ago it was Italy, then Spain was the place to play and now its England. Let's say they form a European Super League with big money contracts, what would stop the best players from getting the most money... nothing.

[Jim Bob 0]

Just read this quote from Matthew Barnaby in today's Toronto Star...

"No. I want to get back to work. But at the same time, I'm just a little disappointed that it went this far to play poker and to have someone call your bluff."

Seems like some players are a little unhappy with the union right now, and many are suprised the NHLPA finally agreed to a salary cap at least in principal.

That doesn't surprise me one bit.

Goodenow has played the players like pawns in a chess match and they are getting POd when they find out how this has all worked out.

I can't blame them for that.

And to me, that's one of the reasons that Bettman waited this long to give Bob "The Deadline Dealer" Goodenow a deadline.

Bettman had to figure that when they got to a deadline that Goodenow would come off his "no cap" stance. He also had to figure that the players would get POd if they lost 2/3 of a season's worth of pay and then gave in on the one big thing that Goodenow was preaching that they'd never give up on.

Bettman and a bunch of owners have wanted to get Goodenow out of control of the NHLPA for a while. And by handling things the way they have, they just might accomplish that goal.

[DrMolotov 0]

For people with time on their hands or want 100% hockey talk, http://www.fan590.com/ is promising interviews with players and owners up untill the 1:00 pm press confernce which they will broadcast in full.

[MDE3 0]

The longer this goes and I think you will see a shift towards Europe.  Look at top flite soccer, five years ago it was Italy, then Spain was the place to play and now its England.  Let's say they form a European Super League with big money contracts, what would stop the best players from getting the most money... nothing.

The NHL is the Titanic and its going down, and only four hours left to get the lifeboats ready....  time will tell but looks to me like the fat lady is warming up.

I still think a large part of this negotiation was just that....to get the NHL salary structure down to where Euro teams could begin to compete for their own top stars, with the eye to a future true "World" league.

One effect of this lockout has been in part to raise the level of salaries in Europe with the top NHL players playing a season or partial season(to be seen) over there. I think that some of the people involved in the NHL..a select few owners...would like to see this season reach impasse to speed up the process, and get salary levels down(through impasse and arbitration) to where this eventuality could be sped up.

Once those Euro salary levels have been breached, do you really think that they wont stay up there to keep some of the stars playing over there?

I think that all along there has been an eye to the furture with the possibility of this World League being a major marketing attraction and a way of expanding the hockey media market, as well as an excuse to make some major changes to the game along the lines so often suggested....larger surfaces, and a more open style of play.

No doubt some of you still think I am crazy..... :D

[Jim Bob 0]

What I doubt is that European owners will have the revenue streams available to maintain competitive salaries for the long term.

For example, Ak Bars Kazan is operating at a huge loss this season. I can't see them being willing to do that year after year after year.

And the number of teams that are offering competitive salaries can be counted on one hand right now.

Plus, it's not like either offer that is on the table right now will cause a huge shift in player salaries.

Even after the 24% rollback, 99% of players will make significantly more in the NHL than in Europe.

[MDE3 0]

You assume that the existing Euro teams would remain as such....however in the concept of a Superleague....those revenue streams could well improve, with new teams and venues growing out of the existing organizations to compete in a new league.

The "select few" from Europe would no doubt be eying those possibilities too...for the exact reasons' you are putting forth..their need to expand and improve their own market and cash stream...

The malaise we see in hockey over here needs a major shake up in the minds not only of many fans, but to be sure also in the minds of many who own and operate the major franchises on both sides of the Atlantic. This malaise is parrelled in Europe by a different problem....I believe over there, hockey is still considered a fairly "provincial" sport, and they need to wake up their own media as well. The possibility of keeping their top players closer to home, and injecting some regular international play into the mix, may have very strong appeal to some European owners who could envision a much broader place for hockey in the Euro sports landscape.

Everyone from the fans to the League, seems to agree that the sport needs some sort of excitement re-injected into the game....aside from a few rule changes..pertinent only to existing hockey afficianado's... how would you suggest putting hockey back on the media map? If you had a clean sheet of paper how would you do this? There needs to be some sort of major splash to capture the attention of the media market again....

There are many reason's beyond the current cash flow differences between Europe and N.A. to look at this possibility.

[Jim Bob 0]

A lot of Canadians have finally gotten mad at Bettman for his 42.5 mil offer, which really shows something. Because before this they were oblivious to any faults of the Owners and Bettman, which were pretty clear.

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Hockey/NHL/Edmon.../16/932603.html

It doesn't appear that all Canadians are that mad about the turn of events.

And seriously, Goodenow ticking off the players is a lot more likely to get him fired than Bettman ticking of a Canadian public that already hated the guy will.

Bettman has been willing to be the NHL's bad guy for a long time. And I'm sure it doesn't both him or the owners if that continues to be the case.

[DrMolotov 0]

A lot of Canadians have finally gotten mad at Bettman for his 42.5 mil offer, which really shows something. Because before this they were oblivious to any faults of the Owners and Bettman, which were pretty clear.

Most of us are still supporting the owners on this issue because we know the league cannot continue to have salaries get any further out of hand. The players want as much as they can get and I don't blame them for it, but its time for the owners and league to regain control. No owners means no NHL, and the players need to figure that out.

Hell, most of the ex-players are against the position of the current players. I can't think of any businessman saying to his employees "no problem, take 60% of the total revenue", would you?

[DrMolotov 0]

A lot of Canadians have finally gotten mad at Bettman for his 42.5 mil offer, which really shows something.  Because before this they were oblivious to any faults of the Owners and Bettman, which were pretty clear.

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Hockey/NHL/Edmon.../16/932603.html

It doesn't appear that all Canadians are that mad about the turn of events.

And seriously, Goodenow ticking off the players is a lot more likely to get him fired than Bettman ticking of a Canadian public that already hated the guy will.

Bettman has been willing to be the NHL's bad guy for a long time. And I'm sure it doesn't both him or the owners if that continues to be the case.

Great article, pretty much sums up my feelings.

[MDE3 0]

According to TSN.ca's latest, with the 11:00 am deadline passed, the NHL has sent out memos to the teams telling them the season is cancelled and this to be announced at 1:00 today. Apparently there has been no more communication since the last NHLPA offer was rejected.

[DrMolotov 0]

Dr. Molotov- Frankly, with the owners weak stance of revenue sharing, I don't know how anyone in their right mind would think that their proposal would fix the NHL. It would be disaster. It does jack to help the weaker teams.

Look, the league has been in trouble for a while and I would be happy to see the weaker teams fold. Should successful teams part with revenue to support those teams where the fan base does not exist or the team does not ice the best team.

In this Country its taxes and the currency exchange that has made it hell on the Canadian small market teams not foolish spending. If you have a team in a city which does not support the product than why should Toronto, Philadelphia, New York, Montreal foot the bill. Let's say I buy a fast food franchise and I lose money, should the other francises pay to make up the difference?

That being said, some revenue sharing is required because certain teams draw well on the road and therefore the orginization should be compensated. However, if a team does not attempt to get the best players they can afford, and they can't fill the seats then why should the other teams support them.

Both sides are to blame here, and right or wrong I still put the majority of the blame on the players.

[Jim Bob 0]

Goodness knows that lots of NHLPA members would be homeless had they taken the NHL's last offer.

Both sides are idiots for not getting a deal done. And neither is dumber than the other right now.

[DrMolotov 0]

Bettman is an arse, and his comments yesterday were laughable. I look foward to teams folding and this blowing up in his face. The NHL wanted everything their way, which is not how negotiations work. The blame is on both sides, but the season ultimately failed because of Bettman.

Its clear to me that we disagree on many issues but I fully agree with your thoughts on Gary Bettman. This is his mess and this will be his legacy. I'd like to see both Bettman and Goodenow be removed and lets get the egos out of the way. Looks like its back to square one, no hockey before next January.

[Jim Bob 0]

I like the idea of Mike Gartner replacing Goodenow and Lanny McDonald replacing Bettman.

[Chadd 916]

I like the idea of Mike Gartner replacing Goodenow and Lanny McDonald replacing Bettman.

I'd settle for Lonny Bohonos or Ronald McDonald replacing Bettman

[DrMolotov 0]

Bettman is an arse, and his comments yesterday were laughable.  I look foward to teams folding and this blowing up in his face.  The NHL wanted everything their way, which is not how negotiations work.  The blame is on both sides, but the season ultimately failed because of Bettman.

Its clear to me that we disagree on many issues but I fully agree with your thoughts on Gary Bettman. This is his mess and this will be his legacy. I'd like to see both Bettman and Goodenow be removed and lets get the egos out of the way. Looks like its back to square one, no hockey before next January.

I am just mad..I thought we were set to have a season....I apologize for the craziness, but they are pretty much my thoughts.

I think its safe to say we're all pissed off, and everyone is entitled to have an opinion. They have been calling this for a long time, I had hoped that common sense would prevail but here we are.

[RadioGaGa 162]

I like the idea of Mike Gartner replacing Goodenow and Lanny McDonald replacing Bettman.

I'd settle for Lonny Bohonos or Ronald McDonald replacing Bettman

Ya know we really should have a "post of the day" award!

Classic....

But seriously...Brian Burke should be in a upper management role in the League...

[MDE3 0]

Reading comments every day in the aftermath columns(post your reply) to TSN articles on this dispute, I would be inclined to agree with Bettman's analyses that 70% of Canadians agree with the stance of the NHL throughout this whole debacle.

No doubt there will be some emotional hand wringing for the next few days and weeks, but certainly the Canadian fans feel like they have been getting a raw deal for years, because of the high cost of ticket prices which are driven by salaries paid in $US. This to watch "their own game" so to speak.

Fans in the US ..well how many of us have been complaining about the product for years now? I know I can no longer count the number of times I fell asleep during a regular season game....and I love the game, played it for years, coached it, and have promoted it in various forms....but still fell asleep.....

Many(withing the NHL camp) have gotten sanctimonious about creating parity..and what did we just see? Two small market teams with low budget rosters in the Stanley cup finals. Good hockey excitement does not come from arbitrated parity, it comes from spirit and desire and good coaching.....and perhaps least...top talent.

As we have too often witnessed...a big salary is the surest way to kill the excitement factor in a great player....not all, but how many went from "great" to "above average" or even "average" in inverse proportion to their increases in salary levels?

Much has been made about the drawing power of stars...something I would agree with, but.....being an overpaid deadweight does not equal being a "star". So many of these highly overpaid "stars" feel like they are some kind of a "main draw", but they live under a grand illusion. After 10 - 15 mediocre games, none of the true fans are very excited to see these guys play...except to get to boo them.

Something needed to change, and the sport was due for a cartharis of some kind...so here we are.....

[Chadd 916]

I like the idea of Mike Gartner replacing Goodenow and Lanny McDonald replacing Bettman.

I'd settle for Lonny Bohonos or Ronald McDonald replacing Bettman

Ya know we really should have a "post of the day" award!

Classic....

But seriously...Brian Burke should be in a upper management role in the League...

I thought he did a poor job last time he worked for the league. He went light on suspensions far too many times.

[Jim A 4]

The fact is that out of both sides, the NHLPA negotiated in better faith. They gave in to the #1 thing the league wanted. The league was so damn stubborn that they could not bring their offer up a few more million. THis is Negotiating. One side cannot do all the concessions. Bettman is an arse, and his comments yesterday were laughable. I look foward to teams folding and this blowing up in his face. The NHL wanted everything their way, which is not how negotiations work. The blame is on both sides, but the season ultimately failed because of Bettman.

I didn't think you could teach the blind how to see, but now, some of the people making comments on TSN agree.

I don't think the negotiations over the past couple weeks constitute good faith, when they were approached long ago to fix the system, they declined to do so..just like all the Wall Street'ers in the 80's and Dot Bombers of the 90's..the rode the wave for a long time and then are suffering the crash

now everyone always asks why the players should have to fix or pay for the owners mistakes..well its a partnership..without the owners..there's no league..and without players..there's nothing to sell..it goes both ways..and it showed that both are short sighted...the NHL has a lack of a salary floor while the PA wants a floor but not a cap...

but by waiting and expecting the owners and Bettman to cave, the PA severely misjudged them this time around and are paying the price, literally and figuretively

Bettman does the owners bidding, had they thought it was good enough to play, there'd be a season starting in 10 days

[Bane 1]

I had a real good conversation with a buddy earlier who works for a minor pro team and am trying to get the words right again..

the fact is the negotiations should have been this serious a long time ago...he made a good point that both Bettman and Goodenow came on the job around the same time, which I hadn't realized, and that both need this first win

I think 42 million is more than suitable for a cap..I also like linkage...of course that requires a significant agreement on what revenues are to be reported by each team and include things like Team ABC reporting their subsidary UYH llc that technically owns the arena, etc..

there needs to be meaningful revenue sharing so that after teams like Detroit, NY,etc are reeled in..teams like Pitt and MN etc aren't still at 28..that's my worry...and still on unsolid ground...

If the owners just cave after all that has gone on the past few months, I'd actually be pretty pissed since the game won't likely be fixed economically

Actually.I've decided that I won't go to a game, unless tix are free, for a year after this ends...its been a long game of chicken...

Now if the NHLPA had jsut agreed to start negotiations 5 years ago like the league asked them to do, we wouldn't be here. Goodenow repeatedly rebuffed the league and said they would start when the end of the current CBA was near.

[Chadd 916]

Now if the NHLPA had jsut agreed to start negotiations 5 years ago like the league asked them to do, we wouldn't be here. Goodenow repeatedly rebuffed the league and said they would start when the end of the current CBA was near.

Do you believe the NHL would have renegotiated the CBA if it wasn't beneficial enough to the players? At least the NHLPA played out the CBA and then offered to make several concessions.

[Jim A 4]

What were the concessions though? the rollback, but I don't think that would have lasted in a long term envrionment, granted its a lot to leave on the table..

I really think a payroll between say a 35million min, with exceptions if you have a certain amount of entry level players on the roster, and say 42 million, with an exception to pay one player that you have drafted any amount you wish and it doesn't count, would work for me..

as we have all heard ad nauseum today the cap is a magnet, there are 90% + of the teeams that are in leagues with a cap within 1million of the #...that wouldn't and cant' be the case in the NHL ...

a 45 million dollar cap works out to just about 2million or so per player, since most teams have 23 players on the NHL roster at any time, never mind the 1 way contracts in the AHL and others they pay..so the avg salary would still go up even at 42million..so I just don't see how that helps the financial straits of the league, it would have given it a season but I don't think it would have been enough to do so for the league to possibly make another mistake..

my biggest thing though is that there needs to be some sort of meaningful revenue sharing..and that $ needs to be actively shown as used in payroll, marketing, growth, etc..that is MLB's biggest joke..teams cry foul over payrolls..but run to the bank to pocket and cash the checks that the Yanks, Sox, Angels, Dodgers etc provide and don't put it back into their teams, rather just lines their pockets..

[Eazy_b97 1]

with an exception to pay one player that you have drafted any amount you wish and it doesn't count, would work for me..

Do you think this would cause an increase in draft-day hold-outs? If I'm drafted to a small market team they will never be able to afford me. How can you trade a guy like that? I know the idea is to keep him, but there comes a point when rebuilding is a good thing.

[Chadd 916]

with an exception to pay one player that you have drafted any amount you wish and it doesn't count, would work for me..

Do you think this would cause an increase in draft-day hold-outs? If I'm drafted to a small market team they will never be able to afford me. How can you trade a guy like that? I know the idea is to keep him, but there comes a point when rebuilding is a good thing.

There was an option like that discussed and the large market owners wanted to be able to exclude it from the cap and the small market owners wanted it included when considering the minimum.

I also dispute the fact that NHL teams would all spend up to the cap. In the NFL, the league revenues are so great they can afford to do it. NBA teams have a cap that is really a luxury tax and they also have revenues that permit teams to spend up to the cap.