Old School to New School

[stick9 881]

3 hours ago, hockeydad3 said:

I wanted to compensate the dullness and the shaky feeling of my blades by tying tight. Didn´t work because i´m already used to the freedom of movement of tying not tight. Tying loose means that i`m tying the last  three eylets as tight as i could because my forefoot seems to be small, in the midfoot area i´m just pulling my laces until i feel some slight resistance, the third eylet which is in the angle is tied very tight because this one gives me the heel-lock and the upper two are just pulled until i feel some resistance again. Im using Bauer waxed laces. As described above, there is almost no way to tie the ankles in a reproducible medium way.

 

Straight off, ditch the waxed laces. Waxed laces have no give so you’re essentially making stiff boot even stiffer. 

Second, sounds sort of like you are in a less than ideal fit. 

[hockeydad3 50]

Well, bauer waxed laces are between the heavy waxed elite and non waxed laces, only way i can tie my boots differentially. Loose in the middle and the top and tight at the toes and the angle. No pain, no blisters perfect heel- and midfoot-lock and toes not touching the toecap. Maybe not a perfect fit, but seems to be ok. In my next life i would buy another skate. But thats what i know now. Now i know why i had problems at the beginning with this skate.

[clarkiestooth 235]

This thread really illustrates that most player don't need the top of the line skates. In fact, they would skate BETTER in a mid level skate like a Bauer Supreme S180 for example. They just don't generate the powerful forward flex needed to drive the pro level jets. And, quite frankly, all skates provide the lateral support these days, especially compared to 80's skates.

When I think of those Langes, I picture Phil Esposito wearing number 77 for the Rangers. 

Also on the topic of molded plastic skates, I remember playing against the Swedes and Czechs in the late 70's. They wore plastic Jofa skates, fully one piece with no hings,just a slit across the forefoot which didn't budge. They coveted our Supertacks!

[stick9 881]

I think clarkie makes an excellent point in regards to top end skates. The overall fit, stiffness and height of the boot is way different these days. Most of us have gradually evolved into the modern boot. 

Honestly, and I can’t believe I am going to say this. If I were coming from an older skate like a Super Tack, I would have went right to a Graf 703 or 705. 

[hockeydad3 50]

2 hours ago, clarkiestooth said:

This thread really illustrates that most player don't need the top of the line skates. In fact, they would skate BETTER in a mid level skate like a Bauer Supreme S180 for example. They just don't generate the powerful forward flex needed to drive the pro level jets. And, quite frankly, all skates provide the lateral support these days, especially compared to 80's skates.

When I think of those Langes, I picture Phil Esposito wearing number 77 for the Rangers. 

Also on the topic of molded plastic skates, I remember playing against the Swedes and Czechs in the late 70's. They wore plastic Jofa skates, fully one piece with no hings,just a slit across the forefoot which didn't budge. They coveted our Supertacks!

And the Graf 5035 is at the lower mid-price-level. I chose the Graf´s because of the top price-performance-ratio in Germany. Material and processing quality is top compared to the other competitors for the same Price, e.g. supreme s160.

[BeerLeague1962 8]

3 hours ago, clarkiestooth said:

This thread really illustrates that most player don't need the top of the line skates. In fact, they would skate BETTER in a mid level skate like a Bauer Supreme S180 for example. They just don't generate the powerful forward flex needed to drive the pro level jets. And, quite frankly, all skates provide the lateral support these days, especially compared to 80's skates.

When I think of those Langes, I picture Phil Esposito wearing number 77 for the Rangers. 

Also on the topic of molded plastic skates, I remember playing against the Swedes and Czechs in the late 70's. They wore plastic Jofa skates, fully one piece with no hings,just a slit across the forefoot which didn't budge. They coveted our Supertacks!

I totally agree - a mid price product with an amount of "give" is actually what I seek.  To be honest, it's the "give" which results in the true feel of the ice. This is what I had in the old 1980s Supertacks albeit with roll after rolls of tape  !  I really need to get that back but with modern skates if at all possible - it's certainly impacted my game. 

Ps  I'm a vinyl record guy too !  Hey seriously, I am. . . . .  ha ha  😀

[YesLanges 127]

14 hours ago, BeerLeague1962 said:

Touch wood, my knees are holding up just fine.  I can't imagine what it would be like to get back on the ice after a full ACL rebuild ?  That must have taken ages to get your confidence back in terms of executing hockey moves etc ?  Great recovery ! 

Thanks. It took a full year to heal, another full year to regain confidence athletically with a brace, and a few more years before I felt safe ditching the brace. In retrospect, I could have ditched it much earlier. Of course, this was back when they first started doing them through a big incision; nowadays, they do them through the arthroscope with a lot less down time. The funny thing is that skating is a lot less stressful on it than dry-land sports. Perhaps the best example is Steve Yzerman, who couldn't walk up a flight of stairs or run at all when he was still a perennial NHL All-Star. 

14 hours ago, BeerLeague1962 said:

The hard shell, hinged Lange skates of the seventies and early eighties properly addressed the issues of forward flex for skaters seeking a non-leather robust skate. 

I wonder why CCM or Bauer haven't explored the concept of hinged construction using modern materials? 

Back in the late 70s and early 80s, they were pretty popular in the NHL, with several guys on every team wearing them, including many veteran stars like Esposito, Mikita, Greschner, Duguay, and, I think, Lafleur (?). I'm not sure why they died off the way they did. No doubt that modern skates are superior and much lighter, but my experience trying unsuccessfully to transition to them only increased my appreciation for the hinged design. The higher-end modern skates are actually much more rigid than the polyurethane Lange boot, but I think you need to learn to skate in less-rigid boots before you can skate well in high-end modern skates, as CT said, precisely because of the way they limit ankle flex unless you tie them relatively loose. I still tape up just like Nick Fotiu and all those guys in those old NHL pictures in the thread about Daryl Evans skating with no laces, but I can still flex my ankles because of the hinge and because I flex them forward when I tape them.

[StinkyPinky 11]

On 1/14/2018 at 11:44 AM, YesLanges said:

True; but it's something of a trade-off, because there are probably just as many situations where a tight ankle lock exposes your knee to much more serious injuries that might have been no more than a badly-sprained ankle without the tight ankle lock. It's something I'm fully aware of but try not to think about on the ice, having already had a total ACL reconstruction when I was 21.. 

I completely broke my tibia & fibula in very tight Bauer Supreme one100 skates (completely displaced, but closed). I believe the lateral pressure on my "high ankle"/"low fibula" caused the break.

Both my lacing and play style has certainly changed as a result. Although I still keep the mid/ankle laces quite tight I really focus on allowing some ankle flex. I'd take a sprained ankle in-boot over a bone injury any day. Also no more kamikaze stops into battles along the boards!

[BeerLeague1962 8]

Following the various tips and advice I had a fairly decent hockey practice session on Monday night. I adopted the miss out the second to the top eyelet method and it kinda worked although I did go for a medium lace tightness and taped my tongues with shin pads behind them. One thing I would say is that for the first time in 30 years of hockey I had an incident whereby I could have easily "gone over" on my ankle and it spooked me. I have never had such a feeling of exposure in leather skates in my life and it was only my ability on the ice that saved the moment.

I've taken the decision to play 3 months in the new CCM Jetspeeds and if I'm not totally comfortable I'll simply buy some leather dubbin, buy some new laces and go back to my "old school" Supertacks. It's as easy as that 👍

[Playmakersedge 58]

On 1/11/2018 at 7:01 PM, BeerLeague1962 said:

Hi Guys,

I've just moved up from my dear old leather CCM supertacks ( bless 💜 !  ) to new CCM Jetspeed 300 following a pro fitting session including foot scan in store. To be fair, the skates fit like a glove but I've lost my forward flex ! ! !  Feels like I'm skating in ski boots ! !  

I've tried missing out the top eyelet but this created wobble and compromised my lateral support. After years of skating in leather and taping up I hoped the new products would give me evening I wanted  😞

Any ideas ? 

Welcome  , I'm also ancient and went from what you and I like to the skates of now .. You are experiencing the exact same thing I am .   I have been doing my best to keep an open mind and give it time.     I'm a huge guy and these skates are bending as much as they are going to bend.  

    I'm finding my self changing my form to accommodate the skate instead of the skate accommodating me . The change in my form is having me stride more threw the hip. Causing hip pain and outer knee pain .....    I think skates got this stiff to make it easier for folks to take up hockey and not have to go threw the ankle strength building you and I have done.   I don't think there is a current off the shelf skate that will perform to what we are used too .  The True hockey VH skate I have not held in my hand I can't tell if there is forward frex in the boot ....... There are some new old stock Graf skates available.  There is also a skate  Botas*  that looks like it's built the way we are accustomed  ..    or time to start rebuilding these skates that are to stiff .   I have dropped two eyelets , helps but doesn't give what you are used to.

[Playmakersedge 58]

8 hours ago, StinkyPinky said:

I completely broke my tibia & fibula in very tight Bauer Supreme one100 skates (completely displaced, but closed). I believe the lateral pressure on my "high ankle"/"low fibula" caused the break.

Both my lacing and play style has certainly changed as a result. Although I still keep the mid/ankle laces quite tight I really focus on allowing some ankle flex. I'd take a sprained ankle in-boot over a bone injury any day. Also no more kamikaze stops into battles along the boards!

I would lace my skates  just tugging on the laces all the way up. The boot after breaking in would have spots where the laces made a pronounced indentation in the eyelet area and tongue.  Any place on the skate I could put my finger under where the laces crossed   . They felt like an extension of my foot . The only place I ever wanted stiffer was the counters  .    I'm planning on doing some mods on the smaller pair of tacks  . Going to add some flex spots .  Trying to convince a guy that does custom auto interiors  to get involved or let me use his machine to sew things back together . 

[BeerLeague1962 8]

That sounds interesting. . . . . .  looking at the Jetspeeds from the side, I'm almost tempted to cut a keyhole shaped dart in them to allow for some degree of flex.

I wonder if there are any guys out there who've tried home made skate mods like this  ? 

[BeerLeague1962 8]

On 16/01/2018 at 11:00 PM, Playmakersedge said:

Welcome  , I'm also ancient and went from what you and I like to the skates of now .. You are experiencing the exact same thing I am .   I have been doing my best to keep an open mind and give it time.     I'm a huge guy and these skates are bending as much as they are going to bend.  

    I'm finding my self changing my form to accommodate the skate instead of the skate accommodating me . The change in my form is having me stride more threw the hip. Causing hip pain and outer knee pain .....    I think skates got this stiff to make it easier for folks to take up hockey and not have to go threw the ankle strength building you and I have done.   I don't think there is a current off the shelf skate that will perform to what we are used too .  The True hockey VH skate I have not held in my hand I can't tell if there is forward frex in the boot ....... There are some new old stock Graf skates available.  There is also a skate  Botas*  that looks like it's built the way we are accustomed  ..    or time to start rebuilding these skates that are to stiff .   I have dropped two eyelets , helps but doesn't give what you are used to.

Thanks for the comments and I must say that's it's reassuring to hear from other "old school" guys going through the same issues. At the ancient age of 55  I really don't need the hassle of learning how to state again ! 

Maybe it's a fact of life that the two technologies and skating styles are, and will remain, very different so there's no point trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.

Perhaps we should respect the distinction and be proud to be "old school" instead of trying to get down with the kids and their "new school" technologies 😀

[Playmakersedge 58]

56 minutes ago, BeerLeague1962 said:

Thanks for the comments and I must say that's it's reassuring to hear from other "old school" guys going through the same issues. At the ancient age of 55  I really don't need the hassle of learning how to state again ! 

Maybe it's a fact of life that the two technologies and skating styles are, and will remain, very different so there's no point trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.

Perhaps we should respect the distinction and be proud to be "old school" instead of trying to get down with the kids and their "new school" technologies 

1 hour ago, BeerLeague1962 said:

That sounds interesting. . . . . .  looking at the Jetspeeds from the side, I'm almost tempted to cut a keyhole shaped dart in them to allow for some degree of flex.

I wonder if there are any guys out there who've tried home made skate mods like this  ? 

I think it will work between the fourth and fifth eyelet down . I haven't pulled the trigger on making the cut . Reason is I'm thinking about the shape of the cut . At first I was going to do a pie cut ; then I saw in my mind that upon the closing of the mouth of the pie cut the point would then be pushing out or puckering and and also be put in tension at that spot  .    So I put the tools down .  

Started doodling.  I believe I have a design that wouldn't require CCM or Bauer  to change there molding process  or major retooling  .       

Forgot this:   the eyelet placement the way it is dictates where the relief cut falls and more important the angle in reference to parallel to the ice ..   .... i need ccm to let me in the skate making room ☺

 

[Playmakersedge 58]

2 hours ago, BeerLeague1962 said:

Thanks for the comments and I must say that's it's reassuring to hear from other "old school" guys going through the same issues. At the ancient age of 55  I really don't need the hassle of learning how to state again ! 

Maybe it's a fact of life that the two technologies and skating styles are, and will remain, very different so there's no point trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.

Perhaps we should respect the distinction and be proud to be "old school" instead of trying to get down with the kids and their "new school" technologies 😀

But can the new out perform the old ?  Figure skates are the perfect example.  Look at the speed they generate while making it look effortless.  Look at there edge work and jumps,  landing ; I don't know the math but it's a lot more force then a hockey players ankles take .   There boot has rigity but it's not ridiculously rigid. It' not made from an excessive amount of crazy material.   Leather, Kevlar,  mostly organic  

[BeerLeague1962 8]

On 28/01/2018 at 10:35 PM, Playmakersedge said:

But can the new out perform the old ?  Figure skates are the perfect example.  Look at the speed they generate while making it look effortless.  Look at there edge work and jumps,  landing ; I don't know the math but it's a lot more force then a hockey players ankles take .   There boot has rigity but it's not ridiculously rigid. It' not made from an excessive amount of crazy material.   Leather, Kevlar,  mostly organic  

On 28/01/2018 at 8:06 PM, BeerLeague1962 said:

Thanks for the comments and I must say that's it's reassuring to hear from other "old school" guys going through the same issues. At the ancient age of 55  I really don't need the hassle of learning how to state again ! 

Maybe it's a fact of life that the two technologies and skating styles are, and will remain, very different so there's no point trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.

Perhaps we should respect the distinction and be proud to be "old school" instead of trying to get down with the kids and their "new school" technologies 😀

I think Playmakersedge should definitely contact J.S.Belanger ( @BelangerJSproduct director at CCM )  and put some ideas forward to engineer a forward flex option into the supertacks range. It's a no brainer in my view !