Fit Question - Wide Feet and Debate between Vapor and Supreme

[Ruknight4ever 0]

Hi Everyone.  I have a question regarding skate fit.  I've read numerous articles on this forum but my question is different from  what I have seen posted.  Any advice would be surely welcomed!

I own a pair of Bauer S170 Supreme - Size 9D.  The length is fine but the width is too tight at the forefoot.  I have a bunion on the inside of both feet and the Supreme 9D boot width is not enough to cover that bump out.  I went to my local store and the Bauer 3D fit system put me into a Vapor 9EE.  I was surprised with Vapor since I don't consider myself to have a low volume foot or a narrow/V shaped heel.  They have a 30 day return policy so I purchased, baked and sharpened them.  The 9EE Vapors are definitely wider than the Bauer 9Ds. When I tie the Vapors as I usually do (tight - but not super tight - through each eyelid), I have pain on the top/side of the boot where the bunion is, as well as pressure (not necessarily pain) at the 4th to 7th eyelids (counting from the ankle).  That pressure at the 4th and 7th eyelids is also where my foot does not pass the pencil test on the Vapor (but my foot passes the pencil test for the first 3 and last 3 eyelids).  I fail the pencil test at the 4th - 7th eyelids by around 1/4 inch.

I can skate in the Vapors pain and pressure free if I tie the laces loose - for example - I tie them just enough to take the slack out but not tight enough to pull the boot in.  I only crank down on the top two eyelids (by the ankle).  The skates don't slip when I tie them this way, I can hockey stop, pivot, etc.  The local store said that's fine - but it seems like the boot should fit better/differently so I don't have to be so loose with the laces.

I am considering ordering Supreme 9EE just to see if the additional volume would, at a minimum, remove the pressure on the 4th to 7th eyelid area.  I am ok if I have to lace the first few eyelids loose (to account for the bunion).  It just seems odd to have to tie all the laces loose except for the first two eyelids.  Anyone have a similar fit issue or can offer some advice?  I would greatly appreciate it!

[bvictor 0]

I'm kind of in a similar spot, so I'll be interested in the replies.  I was put in a 5.5D Supreme, but tried on a ton of options at the store and ended up with a Vapor 5.5EE.  

From everything I read so far, the boot should fit very snug, even when unlaced.  I do enough to snug down most of the laces, but really only pull the top 3 eyelets tight.  If I pull tighter than that lower, I get foot pain as well as cut off too much blood flow and my toes will go numb.  It's taken me a while to figure all of that out (had them for about a month, these are my first new skates so not much of a point of reference) I thought I had made a mistake in selecting skates, but now they are finally starting to break in a bit and feel really nice. 

Edited January 27, 2020 by bvictor

[krisdrum 223]

Can you not punch the bunion location out on your Supreme 9Ds?  Will the boot not stretch enough to create space?  It sounds like the Supreme is a better fit for your foot, except for that 1 spot. 

[Ruknight4ever 0]

8 minutes ago, krisdrum said:

Can you not punch the bunion location out on your Supreme 9Ds?  Will the boot not stretch enough to create space?  It sounds like the Supreme is a better fit for your foot, except for that 1 spot. 

Thank you for your reply.  I did bring my 9Ds to my local pro shop and he said he could punch out 4-5 parts of the boot.  However, he said if funds were available, to buy a wider boot.  The pro shop doesn't sell skates - he just sells hockey accessories (pucks, sticks, helmets) and provides skate maintenance services (punching, baking, repair, sharpening, etc).

Edited January 27, 2020 by Ruknight4ever
typo

[krisdrum 223]

2 minutes ago, Ruknight4ever said:

Thank you for your reply.  I did bring my 9Ds to my local pro shop and he said he could punch out 4-5 parts of the boot.  However, he said if funds were available, to buy a wider boot.  The pro shop doesn't sell boots - he just sells accessories and provides skate maintenance services (punching, baking, sharpening, etc).

Curious what others say, as I've personally had much better success with punching out a boot that has nagging hotspots and pinch areas if the rest of the boot fits well than going to a wider boot.  You want to minimize the negative space, I would think going to a wider boot just to accommodate 1 area would cause other fit issues. 

[Ruknight4ever 0]

11 minutes ago, krisdrum said:

Curious what others say, as I've personally had much better success with punching out a boot that has nagging hotspots and pinch areas if the rest of the boot fits well than going to a wider boot.  You want to minimize the negative space, I would think going to a wider boot just to accommodate 1 area would cause other fit issues. 

Yes - that's my concern!  There's no doubt to me my current 9Ds are too tight.  The Vapor 9EEs fit great if I lace them very loose - literally just enough pressure to take up the slack.  It seems like I should have a middle ground.  I agree though - jumping to the Supreme 9EE could create negative space that will be problematic in other areas.  My local shop doesn't have any Supreme models in 9EE so I posted my question just to see if I was on the right path b before ordering them...

[krisdrum 223]

6 minutes ago, Ruknight4ever said:

Yes - that's my concern!  There's no doubt to me my current 9Ds are too tight.  The Vapor 9EEs fit great if I lace them very loose - literally just enough pressure to take up the slack.  It seems like I should have a middle ground.  I agree though - jumping to the Supreme 9EE could create negative space that will be problematic in other areas.  My local shop doesn't have any Supreme models in 9EE so I posted my question just to see if I was on the right path b before ordering them...

So, my understanding is from narrow to wide, you have: Vapor D, Supreme D, Vapor EE, Supreme EE.  Obviously the foot shapes are different.  I'd be concerned with the Vapor depth as well, since you are bulging out of the eyelets.  Doesn't sound like the boot is deep enough for your foot.  Only way to deal with that is: A - get a deeper boot, B - don't tie them very tight.

What is the concern with having "loose" laces?

[stick9 880]

Keep in mind that a EE Supreme is going to be wider all around. You could very well be transferring your problem to a different area. Like for example, heel lock. 

[Ruknight4ever 0]

48 minutes ago, krisdrum said:

So, my understanding is from narrow to wide, you have: Vapor D, Supreme D, Vapor EE, Supreme EE.  Obviously the foot shapes are different.  I'd be concerned with the Vapor depth as well, since you are bulging out of the eyelets.  Doesn't sound like the boot is deep enough for your foot.  Only way to deal with that is: A - get a deeper boot, B - don't tie them very tight.

What is the concern with having "loose" laces?

Great question.  I don't inherently mind loose laces - it just seems odd to me to need to have loose laces all up the boot until the first eyelet at the top of the boot.  I posed my question because I was trying to see if this was indeed off/unusual or whether it's relatively common.  I don't have much experience in this area.

 

35 minutes ago, stick9 said:

Keep in mind that a EE Supreme is going to be wider all around. You could very well be transferring your problem to a different area. Like for example, heel lock. 

Very good point - I definitely concur and that is a concern  of mine.  Based on what I feel in my Vapor 9EE, I think a little more room in the forefoot and a little more volume/depth would be welcomed.  I can't answer the same regarding heel lock other than if I had to call it - the Vapor 9EE is is a smidge tight in the heel (but definitely not enough to even be on the radar for my concerns),.  I do plan to order the Supremes in a 9EE because I need to feel it on my foot to get a true read.  I posted my question because I was wondering if others experienced a similar situation as me.

[strosedefence34 175]

3 minutes ago, Ruknight4ever said:

Great question.  I don't inherently mind loose laces - it just seems odd to me to need to have loose laces all up the boot until the first eyelet at the top of the boot.  I posed my question because I was trying to see if this was indeed off/unusual or whether it's relatively common.  I don't have much experience in this area.

 

Very good point - I definitely concur and that is a concern  of mine.  Based on what I feel in my Vapor 9EE, I think a little more room in the forefoot and a little more volume/depth would be welcomed.  I can't answer the same regarding heel lock other than if I had to call it - the Vapor 9EE is is a smidge tight in the heel (but definitely not enough to even be on the radar for my concerns),.  I do plan to order the Supremes in a 9EE because I need to feel it on my foot to get a true read.  I posted my question because I was wondering if others experienced a similar situation as me.

I wear supreme skates and my laces pretty much up the entire skate I just take the slack out of them and then at the last two eyelets I pull them tighter I don't crank on them loop them once flex my foot forward so I can get some forward flex and then finish tying them off.  On a scale of loose to cranked my skate lacing would be snug.  With a proper fitting skate you shouldn't have to crank down on the laces at all.  

 

[krisdrum 223]

9 minutes ago, strosedefence34 said:

I wear supreme skates and my laces pretty much up the entire skate I just take the slack out of them and then at the last two eyelets I pull them tighter I don't crank on them loop them once flex my foot forward so I can get some forward flex and then finish tying them off.  On a scale of loose to cranked my skate lacing would be snug.  With a proper fitting skate you shouldn't have to crank down on the laces at all.  

 

I tend to agree with this as well.  My skates (it took awhile to find a really good fit) are tied "snug" up to about the 3rd or 4th eyelet from the top and then a bit more tension to the top to pull the sides of the skate around my ankle  I'd define "snug" as just a bit more tension once the lace is laying flat on the boot without any wrinkles or excess length between the eyelets.  There isn't any "slop" or negative space between my foot and the upper of the boot.  I'll add, I also don't wear "normal" "modern" skates by today's standards.  I'm in a pair of Graf 535 wides.  Which compared to most skates these days are low cut noodles made from antiquated materials.  But they fit my feet like a glove. 

[Ruknight4ever 0]

27 minutes ago, strosedefence34 said:

I wear supreme skates and my laces pretty much up the entire skate I just take the slack out of them and then at the last two eyelets I pull them tighter I don't crank on them loop them once flex my foot forward so I can get some forward flex and then finish tying them off.  On a scale of loose to cranked my skate lacing would be snug.  With a proper fitting skate you shouldn't have to crank down on the laces at all.  

 

That's very helpful.  I would say, on a scale of loose to cranked, the skate lacing I described is loose for all the eyelets except for the last one.  I tie my double knot at the top of the skate pretty tightly.  What I describe as loose doesn't mean the laces are flopping around - but there is no tension on them.  If I tied them snugly, then I would start to pull/wrap the boot over my foot.  If I add any level of tension, then they hurt as I described in my original post.  I skate fine with this loose tying pattern - it just seems unusual to me that I need to do that.

Edited January 27, 2020 by Ruknight4ever

[krisdrum 223]

9 minutes ago, Ruknight4ever said:

That's very helpful.  I would say, on a scale of loose to cranked, the skate lacing I described is loose for all the eyelets except for the last one.  I tie my double knot at the top of the skate pretty tightly.  What I describe as loose doesn't mean the laces are flopping around - but they have very little tension on them.  If I add any level of tension, then they hurt as I described in my original post.  I skate fine with this pattern - it just seems unusual to me that I need to do that.

Your definition of "snug" sounds a bit different than what I picture.  Given the heel seems to feel a bit tight in the Vapor, assuming you can get good heel lock in the 9EE Supreme, I think you'll be more comfortable as the depth should be a better fit.  The width should be a I know some would disagree, but I'd prioritize heel lock over forefoot comfort, so curious how the EE Supreme trial goes for you.  Did the scanner only return a Vapor EE as the fit for you?  Haven't tried one, so not sure if it spits out alternative choices. 

Edited January 27, 2020 by krisdrum

[Vet88 673]

2 hours ago, Ruknight4ever said:

Yes - that's my concern!  There's no doubt to me my current 9Ds are too tight.  The Vapor 9EEs fit great if I lace them very loose - literally just enough pressure to take up the slack.  It seems like I should have a middle ground.  I agree though - jumping to the Supreme 9EE could create negative space that will be problematic in other areas.  My local shop doesn't have any Supreme models in 9EE so I posted my question just to see if I was on the right path b before ordering them...

If it fits well everywhere else then a Supreme EE isn't going to help, you will be getting a wider heel and forefoot for the skate of a little bit of volume. Your issues are not uncommon, it's a foot shape that retail boots don't cover, extra volume in the skate. If you want to stay in these then make your own eyelet extenders, then you can lace the boots up as tight as you like without any pain. It's not hard, have a look at these https://i.imgur.com/vzYCq5L.jpg as to what individual extenders look like, or you can make them as a 2 or 3 eyelet or however many you like. Message me if you want more info and what you need to do this.

Or buy Reebok lacelocks, they can still be found on eBay and in shops. 

[Ruknight4ever 0]

Just now, krisdrum said:

Given the heel seems to feel a bit tight in the Vapor, assuming you can get good heel lock in the 9EE Supreme, I think you'll be more comfortable as the depth should be a better fit.  I know some would disagree, but I'd prioritize heel lock over forefoot comfort, so curious how the EE Supreme trial goes for you.  Did the scanner only return a Vapor EE as the fit for you?  Haven't tried one, so not sure if it spits out alternative choices. 

The Bauer 3D fit system returned only one choice.  It's a cool system and takes all sorts of measurements and is very 3D.  My left foot is 1/4 size longer than my right (which I knew) and my right foot is marginally wider than my left (which I didn't know).

I understand how important heel lock is - but the bunions I have on my feet get tender quickly - so in my instance I need to prioritize comfort so I can be out there skating!

When I place my heel in the Vapor EE, and kick my heel way back - it's snug on the sides but, even with my heel back, there is a gap between the back of my heel and the skate.  I wonder if that's because the Vapor is more V shaped and my U shaped heel doesn't quite fit the profile.  It's possible the Supreme skate, with it's more rounded heel area, will actually fit better with better heel lock even though the Supreme is a higher volume boot in EE width.  

Shortly after my original post, I ordered the Supreme in a 9EE and 9.5EE.  I just received a UPS notification they will be delivered tomorrow (just regular shipping - I almost paid $30 for 2 day shipping - LOL).

Your explanation on what you describe as 'snug' was very helpful.  Very descriptive - it was very easy to understand how you tie the laces.  My faces lie flat-ish and you can definitely slip a finger or two under the laces after I tie tightly at the top of the skate.