Deke
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Posts posted by Deke
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7 hours ago, PUCKSTOPPROSHOPJL said:The ProSharp Profiles are an advancement over single and combination radii profiles. Those were the ones that may have also 'pitched' a blade. With 3 radii on the Zuperior's and four radii on the Quads, those radii change the angle of the blade in reference to the ice. In other words, each section of the blade with a different radius would have a different angle on it. That's where the 'pitch' comes from. Traditional 'pitch' pitches the entire blade with the same angle. Now the radii on each section of a ProSharp blade have each their own 'pitch' or a better word would be angle of attach vs the flat ice. This is where I think some get confused over multiple radii vs pitch.
Thanks for the the explanation. I've been all over the place with pitches and pivot points. The Easton Mako/CXN's were pitched. I skated various Quads on those at various stupid pitches in addition to re-profiling with pitch because nobody told me (or maybe they didn't know) that that was adding pitch to the existing pitch. Eventually I purchased Step steel for those skates and had them profiled with Quad 1's with the 20mm pivot point removed to make them neutral. They skate great! As screwy as all of those bad setups were I managed to adapt. I am happy with the Quad 1 with the neutral pivot point but curious how putting some rearward pivot point back in would affect my stance.
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On 12/2/2022 at 5:25 PM, PUCKSTOPPROSHOPJL said:Pivot Point and Pitch are two different things. Pivot Point is the lowest part of the blade, unless it is moved, it will always be in the middle of the blade of the blade is a single radius. ProSharp moves the PP a little rearward 12MM to 20MM depending on the blade size. Put your skate centered on a pencil. The center of gravity is straight up. Same if you standing on the ice. Now move the skate forward on the pencil. What happens to the skate, It will fall forward... Pivot Point the CG. You feel like tipping forward. To fix this you move your CG by lowing your truck. You have changed your CG by lower your truck, AKA a hockey stance. That is what PROSHARP has been getting you to do. This is NOT pitching the blade. It feels like that but actually pitching the blade would be pitching the entire blade. On PROSHARP profiles the different radii have different angles of attack on the blade because of the size of the radii.
I think most people understand that pivot and pitch are two different things. But most, including myself, want to know when to use one versus the other. To some extent they are both used to accomplish some of the same goals. So is this a matter of equipment limitations or availability? Maybe the preference of the skate tech?
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@Torikkun love this chart! I noticed that I didn't give runner sizes in my reviews so FWIW it was 272. Thanks!
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This should probably be it's own topic...
IMHO linear crossovers just add a layer of deception. It keeps the defender guessing and if he takes the bait it is easy to get around him. Same with any sport, if you can keep them guessing and really sell it, you slow your opponent and make yourself relatively faster. But don't really understand how this is supposed to relate to profiles. You can do LC's on any profile, can't you?
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On 1/2/2021 at 9:16 PM, SkateWorksPNW said:I can confirm after another 10+ hours of ice time that I prefer the Ellipse 0 over the Ellipse 1. So my ranking would change to the following:
1: Ellipse 0
2: Ellipse 1
3: Quad 2
4: Quad 0
5: Quad 1
6: Ellipse 2Note, I am skating on TRUE skates roughly size 7.25 with SHIFT holders sized 272. All of the steel has been profiled with 10mm of pitch.
Hey @SkateWorksPNW, can you say what it is about the Ellipse 0 that you like more now that you have more time on it? I am one that liked the Quad 1 with 0mm pitch on 272 Mako/Step steel after testing on JR's program but didn't get my other sets re-profiled before the program ended. The Quad 2 was really a toss-up though. I still need to find a good mail-in service to get me all setup and so I may as well go with the "future" while I'm at it. Any ideas who I should work with?
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Well now that that's over, can anyone recommend someone that can do ProSharp profiles for me in Southwest Colorado? I wasn't quite done yet... 🙁
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Profile: Detroit 1
Steel: Marsblade on Mako Skate
Hollow: FBV 90/75
About me: In my 60's and have played since high school. Good skater playing 3 to 4 drop-ins per week during the the winter months only.
Baseline: "Similar" to Quad Zero NOT from ProSharp. Did nothing particularly well and later found out there were some issues with the blend from profile to toe. I should also note that the Marsblade is a different animal and is best at techniques that power through the heel.
Detroit 1 Review: As I mentioned above the Marsblade likes heel things. This was really an experiment to see if the super long heel radius of the Detroit 1 would compliment the heel rocker of the Marsblade. The result was "kinda". The Detroit 1 promotes (and demands) long strides and so does the Marsblade. From that standpoint they are good together but at the front end I felt the 10' radius was too much for me. However, and this is a big however, I was surprised that a profile with radii that long worked as well as it did! Acceleration and mobility might have been just OK, but speed, stability and glide were very good or excellent.
I'm not sure how much longer I am going to continue with the Marsblade, but if I do keep going I think I would try a Quad 1 or Quad 2 based my experience with them on standard holders.
Acceleration: 2
Mobility: 3
Speed: 4
Stability 5
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Profile: Quad 2, with all 20mm of built-in pitch/offset removed
Steel: Step Steel in Mako CXN holder
Hollow: FBV 90/75
About me: In my 60's and have played since high school. Good skater playing 3 to 4 drop-ins per week during the the winter months only.
Baseline: CXN Steel with unknown "speed" Quad from well known shop. Short radius at toe, very long radius at the heel. Very (over) pitched. They were stable but not remarkably fast. Mobility was limited and acceleration was poor.
Quad 1 Review: Go here for my Quad 1 review
Quad 2 Review: Just came from the Quad 1 and my immediate reaction was these are fast! If you are already moving these things promote a great long stride and glide. Powerful. Good acceleration from the glide also. Acceleration off the line is not as quick as Quad 1 and mobility is OK. Speed and stability are excellent. This may be a little too much radius for me overall so I am going back to the Quad 1 to verify my feelings. In my case mobility may be more important than speed. Tough decision.
BTW, backward is very fast and stable on these as well. Even acceleration from stopped is very good. Would like a little more lateral mobility though.
Acceleration: 3
Mobility: 3
Speed: 5
Stability 5
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Profile: Quad 1, with all 20mm of built-in pitch/offset removed
Steel: Step Steel in Mako CXN holder
Hollow: FBV 90/75
About me: In my 60's and have played since high school. Good skater playing 3 to 4 drop-ins per week during the the winter months only.
Baseline: CXN Steel with unknown "speed" Quad from well known shop. Short radius at toe, very long radius at the heel. Very (over) pitched. They were stable but not remarkably fast. Mobility was limited and acceleration was poor.
Quad 1 Review: I needed just a little bit of time to adjust to the neutral profile after coming from the overly pitched baseline profile. The result for the Quad 1 is quick off the line, excellent mobility, with good speed and stability. Top speed can be limited unless you delay the toe-off. Great all around profile! Wow! I could stop right here but I am going to try the Quad 2 and see where that goes.
Edit: Backward feels great on these. I would probably give the same ratings below for both forward and back.
Acceleration: 4
Mobility: 5
Speed: 4
Stability 4
Quad 2 Review: Go here for my Quad 2 review
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18 hours ago, Nateinnet said:My son skated stick and puck last night with the #3 t ring and thought it was just ok. Today we put the #1 t ring in the holder and skated 2 hours stick and puck. He was noticeably more comfortable and said that it felt “much better”. More updates to come
Refresh me on the spacer numbers. Which is which? I was one of the early users and only have full movement which is probably the smallest. Any other feedback other than OK and much better? What was your son feeling?
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It's funny but it seems that design can go down two different paths before anyone realizes any results. On one hand, we design around what we already know or what we are already capable of, technique-wise. Technique doesn't really change though, so the results are incremental. On the other hand, you can introduce something completely different where the physics are better, but will require a change in technique. In this case the results could be an order of magnitude better. Just think if we only 1) understood the physics better AND 2) were willing to leave our comfort zone, what would the evolutionary path look like. Gotta admit this is the only reason I tried the Marsblade.
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@Nateinnet I would start with the same 10' and 1/2" he is on now. However, I would also start with a neutral pitch, see what happens then go from there. This way there is really only one variable. In my own experience I ended up with a neutral pitch after having skated "very" pitched forward previously. I am beginning to develop the opinion that many people, including myself have way overdone the forward pitch thing. With the Marsblade I think it is more about finding that sweet spot that makes it click. It seems to excel at anything involving a heel pump. All said, the conservative part of me agrees with others about doing all of this with a second pair of skates.
@SkateWorksPNW my experience was opposite as your clients. I found that my previous "long" profile (similar to Quad 2) didn't really do much with the Marsblade. It just kind of felt the same with or without the Marsblade. I ended up with a Quad Zero. On the Marsblade the Quad Zero feels like there is more steel on the ice than it does in a traditional fixed holder but with the benefits of the shorter radii. It just sort of skates longer. I know that you didn't really care for the Marsblade but as I said it before, I'd love to hear more feedback about your experiences.
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21 hours ago, YesLanges said:If MB are going to work for me, it's definitely going to be on a different profile. Any suggestions?
I have been liking the Quad-0. Previously on my old setup I had a quad from another sharpener with "very long radiuses." which I like a lot. I skated yesterday with that profile on the Marsblades and was disappointed. They felt the same as the old setup (on CXN's) and seemed to cancel the benefit of the Marsblade. I switched back to the Quad-0 later and feeling was back. All this is at neutral pitch which I have had to adapt to.
From just this little bit of experience I think the profile and pitch may be more critical to the Marsblade than anyone thinks. Some of us may have been skating on setups that don't translate to the Marsblade. It takes a lot of time, energy and $$ to sort through this and I have been fortunate to able to do this. My wish is that Marsblade would test the extremes in an controlled test with very good skaters to establish the parameters that work well. I realize that we are all part of this development but there really isn't a way to use all of the random feedback.
I would also like to hear more from sharpeners such as @Nicholas G about their experiences on this. That was the first I heard (above) about people liking the Zuperior. @Nicholas G have any of your skaters that initially didn't like the Marsblade made changes that worked for them?
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17 hours ago, Nicholas G said:I'm just saying that if maybe known for their skating prowess was wearing then I might be more impressed....
@Nicholas G have you tried them? Why is it so important for you to shoot this down? A lot of people are looking for hands-on feedback.
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14 hours ago, JR Boucicaut said:
Installed a set onto my skates. Shot video during the installation which I'll share in the next couple of days; had to expand holes but did it all within 20 minutes.
Looking forward to it!
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18 hours ago, Nicholas G said:No offense, but Kronwall is quite old and is more known for his physical presence than his skating skills.
I know you have worked with some people on the Marsblade, but have you skated on them yourself? There is definitely something there. Efficiency is what I noticed most, especially when switching between skates. That may be what Kronwall was after.
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12 hours ago, YesLanges said:Thanks, Man. I'm thinking that my aggressive forward pitch might actually be the main reason that I'm not feeling too far back on my heels, which seems to be the most common negative comment from others. Agree regarding stability. I'll try the fix that Per sends, but I'm thinking that as between reducing the amount of pivot (which undermines the main purpose of the whole design concept) and keeping that same pivot but adjusting the profile, the latter would be preferable. If the fix doesn't work (and maybe even if it does), I think I might try reducing the 13' in case the pivoting is just putting me more onto the 13' part of my blade than I need to be to keep my mobility. Ideally, if these things are going to work for me, I'd rather maximize that pivot and take full advantage of the design concept but just find the right profile for them if it turns out that the right profile on conventional steels just aren't the right profile for me on a pivoting blade.
Re. the Lange boot, I really don't think that's a variable in this equation. For one thing, it's the same boot I'm already using and it's the same profile that already works for me with conventional steels. (The boots would be more likely to be a variable if I didn't already have a profile that works for me with regular steels on the same boots.) For another (and probably, more importantly), the bottoms where the holders actually attach is no more or rigid than the bottoms of any other skate boots. So, I think I'm no different from any other user in that I'm just comparing the MB to what already works for me with regular steels on the same exact boot.
Another thought about the Langes, well not the boot itself, the original holders may be pitched differently than the Marsblade. Even though you had the steel done the same there could still be difference.
Regarding profiles I would seriously consider taking @JR Boucicaut offer on the Prosharp project. A Quad might be fun to try.
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On 3/13/2019 at 5:14 PM, YesLanges said:The only potential positives were: (1) they seemed to promote a noticeably-lengthened cross-under; (2) I was surprised that they felt a little more stable skating backwards than my usual skates. (3) It's possible that they facilitated a slightly sharper turn, but that could also be that they were freshly sharpened. I'm going to see whether I can cut as sharply on my regular steels on Friday after a few passes with a my edger, just for comparison, because I was consciously testing how sharply I could cut yesterday, which isn't something I normally do. (4) A few times, my lead outside edge caught the ice in a way that felt like I might be able to work on a cut-stop or front-foot brake-turn, which isn't something I can normally do; so I'm also going to test that on my regular skates for comparison. That's it for the positives, and I'm being as generous as possible.
@YesLanges I am in the "adaptation" phase with these as well. My case is probably the opposite of yours where I feel close to going out the back on tight turns and digging in the heels too much in the process. I can say though that when I don't over do it I totally feel that very efficient finish that the testers talked about and can move right into crossovers without losing much speed at the transition. In my case, I'm going to try a pitch adjustment to see if I can keep myself in the sweet spot. Lengthened strides and a more solid outside edge are other pluses that I'm feeling. The final Marsblade product is different from what the pro testers skated on now that the toe is fixed. My hunch is that the pitch on the steel may be a bigger factor than it was then since the rocker only goes one way. You mentioned aggressive pitch in your setup. I don't know how much that is or how the Lange boot may affect that, but I would think it is possible that you could have too much pitch. Just a thought.
All four of your positives indicate more stability so I'll bet you are getting more of the 13' radius of your profile on to the ice than you are used to. (1) a lengthened cross-under, especially if it's coming from the outside edge is awesome. More out of each stride. (2) going backward, the Marsblade rocker is allowing you to basically reduce your pitch, making backward feel good. (3) I'm not sure the Marsblade would necessarily increase the sharpness of your turns but the rocker can make the finish more efficient by not digging into the ice as much. You'd lose less speed and transition smoother. (4) See (1). It sounds like more blade on the ice equals a more solid outside edge. All of those sound great to me if you can adapt them into your style and take advantage of them.
I kinda think you should spend some more time adapting, maybe when you don't have league play to worry about. Just have fun exploring what it will do.
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2 hours ago, Nicholas G said:Some templates have a built-in pitch. If you want to have a neutral pitch you would do the following:
- Mark the blades pivot point on center (like normal).
- Mark an additional pivot point 20mm back from center (closer to heel).
- Line up pivot point on the sled with the black dot.
- Place blade in the holder with the 20mm back from center lined up with sleds pivot point. Do not clamp yet.
- Press left directional arrow till the sleds pivot point lines up with the center pivot point and clamp in place there.
- Make your wheel adjustments like normal.
- Profile till complete.
Thanks, Nicholas G, that makes sense. I am not a skate tech, I'm just trying figure out if two contours that I have on different sets of steel have different amounts of offset or pitch. First of all, are the offset and pitch the same thing? If not, when would you do one vs the other? Second, do the Quad 0 and Quad 1 templates have the same amount of built-in pitch or offset (whichever is used)?
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Do the Prosharp templates have a certain amount of pitch and/or pivot point offset built-in to them? In other words, if you were to ask for neutral, would the offset be truly neutral or whatever the built-in offset is (say 20mm)?
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Per,
I am not one of the above mentioned guys but I am feeling like it is too easy to get too far back. The compensation is to continuously focus on driving forward which I think is negating the benefit of the rocker. I sent you an email.
Deke
Ellipse Profiles – The next revolution in skate profiling?
in Ice Hockey Equipment
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Stop! This is making too much sense. Let me know when you move to Western Colorado. I'll be your first customer!