that doesn't matter, to be honest. plus it ruins the experience for you. the trick is to go in with a realistic number in your head and stick to it. the purchase of a car takes ALL day. and the only real trick car dealers have is the luxury of time on their side, so stay hydrated! seriously. those edmunds books help determine value, but you'll never get that price so don't worry too much about it. i'd say THE MOST important thing to find out before you buy is the history of the car. its good that you have your brother as well. a sales person's job is to build a sense of urgency. one person said not to buy the first car you see, which is very valid advice, but at the same time, timing is everything and the ability to see a good deal and capitalize on it will save you time, money and energy in the long run. being able to differentiate a salesman's urgency to buy as opposed to seeing a great car for a great price are two different things. the final advice is to get the sales manager involved. its their job to represent the dealership and provide an extra level of service above and beyond what the salesman can offer... so if there's a $20,999 car thats been on the lot for two months, and the sales guy won't go lower than, say $18,500... ask him to invite the sales manager into the conversation. a deal almost always gets done with a sales manager at a table. that being said, ask lots of questions.... not necessarily about the car itself, but the dealership's relationship with it.... how long has it been on the lot, what did the previous owner trade it for, how long has the sales guy been there, are there any big markdowns that are going to happen, etc etc. its all about gathering information and letting the sales guy talk it out. the more he talks, the more likely he is to give you a good deal. good luck, and enjoy the experience! its fun!