Joe Thornton.

[ponty 0]

I did not know that about Sammy for Stuart Chippa!

So you, the Bruins that is, are telling me that the delta between Sammy and Joe is Sturm and "the other" Primeau???

Thanks for making this worst for me Chippa!!!!!! :P

That is the rumor that was floating around. The initial talks were Stuart for Sammy. Remember, Thornton was locked up for two more years but Sammy is set to be UFA. That factors into what you're going to get offered for him, witness Reasoner and Stastny.

Yea I understand that about Sammy but the other side of it is that the Bruins put themselves in the position to get crap for him.

How is the attendance at the Garden ... err Fleece ... umm Fleet Center these days?

[chippa13 1844]

Couldn't tell you. The last game I was at was the matinee the Saturday after New Year's, matinee's are always packed. I think it has continued it's decline, though.

Oh, and it is the Garden again, TD Banknorth Garden, that is.

[The Playoff Beard 0]

I did not know that about Sammy for Stuart Chippa!

So you, the Bruins that is, are telling me that the delta between Sammy and Joe is Sturm and "the other" Primeau???

Thanks for making this worst for me Chippa!!!!!! :P

That is the rumor that was floating around. The initial talks were Stuart for Sammy. Remember, Thornton was locked up for two more years but Sammy is set to be UFA. That factors into what you're going to get offered for him, witness Reasoner and Stastny.

I would have taken that trade in a heartbeat, I HAAAAATE Brad Stuart. How's he working out in Boston btw? I heard he's working with Bourque, that should make him a pretty good D-Man later on.

[Eazy_b97 1]

I heard the Samsonov for Stuart rumour as well, apperantly SJ asked about Thornton, and it was a really quick deal, which is why alot of people wonder if they really go full value. At least according to TSN.

[chippa13 1844]

I did not know that about Sammy for Stuart Chippa!

So you, the Bruins that is, are telling me that the delta between Sammy and Joe is Sturm and "the other" Primeau???

Thanks for making this worst for me Chippa!!!!!! :P

That is the rumor that was floating around. The initial talks were Stuart for Sammy. Remember, Thornton was locked up for two more years but Sammy is set to be UFA. That factors into what you're going to get offered for him, witness Reasoner and Stastny.

I would have taken that trade in a heartbeat, I HAAAAATE Brad Stuart. How's he working out in Boston btw? I heard he's working with Bourque, that should make him a pretty good D-Man later on.

He's been the best Bruins defenseman of late. I think the change of scenery did him some good. Being a bonafide regular seems to have boosted his confidence and his play seems to reflect that.

[Jason Harris 31]

I read that they first discussed Sammy for Stuart, which made a lot of sense, since the B's defense was terrible the first two months of the year. Given Sammy could have been a free agent, I wouldn't have had any problem with that trade. Alas, we got Reasoner instead of reason.....

The thing that stinks is Jacobs looks pretty healthy for a 70-year-old, so it looks like we're stuck with him for another decade or so.

And then we get the kid who talks like a clone. :(

[McCabe24 0]

Is Thornton a lock to get the Hart if he beats Jagr for the Art Ross and Cheechoo gets the Rocket Richard in the process?

[milbs06 0]

Is Thornton a lock to get the Hart if he beats Jagr for the Art Ross and Cheechoo gets the Rocket Richard in the process?

Thornton is getting the hart forsure..and mccabe is a joke and the leafs should have traded him at the deadline.

[Eazy_b97 1]

You need someone to replace McCabe. At the Deadline the Marlies had 5 D-man and Belak was already in the top 6 for the Leafs. At that point, trading McCabe, they would have needed to get an NHL calibre player, which kind've defeats the purpose of trading McCabe for picks/prospects.

[ktang 34]

As the other post said, Cheechoo just passed Jagr in goals, and Thornton might pass Jagr in points. If he does that, and with the Sharks getting to the playoffs after that slow start, Thornton should win the Hart.

[Chadd 916]

He did pass Jagr in points

I still say Jagr should win Hart...We will see what happens though

He will, but the way Thornton has finished the season has swung my vote. Joe deserves it more.

[milbs06 0]

like i said THORNTON FOR HART AND NOW CHEECHOO FOR RICHARD!!

LOCKED DOWN

[Fury of One 6]

Thornton should get it only for the simple fact that he pretty much brought San Jose from the basement. I take nothing away from Jagr and what he did on the Rangers, but the Rangers have been a winning team for the most part.

[mack 44]

Looking at the standings, SJ and NY are almost even in points. Couple that in with the momentum and I'd say the Hart is Thornton's now.

[sdh 0]

Let's see ... SJ leads goals, assists, and points and are 5th in the division. I'd say Thornton wins the Hart!

[McCabe24 0]

Another stat to think about, if Thornton had played the entire season for SJ they would have a better record than Dallas.

[Chadd 916]

Its a damn shame Jagr doesn't have competant teammates- And I say that as a hockey fan before a Ranger fan.

He could have done so much more this season if he had a finisher or guys not standing around watching him try to do everything by himself.

Here's a stat to think about, McCabe. If Jagr had a finisher, he would have 140 pts right now easy

Jagr is the finisher.

It's not that he doesn't have decent teammates. The problem is when the offense runs through him, nobody is really sure what he's going to do. No team has ever been able to run their offense through Jagr. No way should he be on the half borads running the powerplay. He's the guy you pass to for the back door play or who walks out and rips it on net. When he holds the puck for long periods of time without moving his feet like he did today, he's a lot easier to stop.

[Eazy_b97 1]

Its a damn shame Jagr doesn't have competant teammates- And I say that as a hockey fan before a Ranger fan.

He could have done so much more this season if he had a finisher or guys not standing around watching him try to do everything by himself.

Here's a stat to think about, McCabe. If Jagr had a finisher, he would have 140 pts right now easy

They purposely went out and got the guys Jagr suggested. He hand picked his linemates. It's no secret he lost all enthusiasm for the game during his time in Washington and NYR before the lock-out. If he has a finisher, is he happy with him, or does he wimp out like he did in Washington? Washington got Lang for him, a great player to work with, and he decided not to play. Staka or Nylander on their own would be doing better than Cheechoo on his own.

[Eazy_b97 1]

What did I say that wasn't true? I may not watch a ton of hockey players but it's all true

1. Sather and Renney went to Jagr for advice on who to get

2. He wimped out in Washington, Pitss (with Kovalev)

3. Nylander/Straka are as good as Chechoo, if not better on their own

- Chechoo was in a terrible slump before Thornton arrived.

- Nylander may be more of a play maker than Chechoo, but Thornton is also less of a scorer compared to Jagr. Straka is in a similar situation.

[kosydar 0]

I will say this in your favor Theo, this year when Jagr is on, he is on a completely different level than everyone else on the ice including his linemates. When Thornton is on, so is Cheechoo.

[Chadd 916]

Your failing to miss my point that Straka and Nylander cannot finish for crap. The goals they have this year are thanks to Jagr...He probably literally assisted on 90% of them. And the amt of chances they missed is unethical levels. What everyone seems to miss is that Jagr has no competant shooter to play with....Lowest scoring defense in the NHL. So he has to take everything in his own hands. And when you are doubled teamed and guys are not getting open for you, its nuts and frustating. Its not that he doesn't give these guys chances. Especially when he was hot (which was 2 weeks ago and before) he would give these guys so many chances, yet they would rarely finish the deed.

I listen to you and Kosy on Leaf related issues and take your word for it. You guys will have to take mine in that if he had a competant shooter or goal scorer he played with he would have broken 85 assists by now easy. I am am not exaggerating at all

I don't mean to put you down in a Derogatory matter if that is what it seemed like (about watching games). I'm just saying that if I want leaf news I'd go to you or Kosy, etc. Boston news- Chippa...If he's in a good mood. Nashville- Mack. etc I'ved watched all but 3 Ranger games this year and while I am biased, I am sincere in my beliefs above

Nylander has never been a pure goal scorer, his real talent is in setting up other guys. When he was in Chicago he was money between Daze and Sullivan. Both of those guys are shooters and not passers. Straka would have been a 50 goal scorer by now if his hands could finish off what his feet create.

The issue is that Jagr always has the puck and the guys they are playing with him are usually passers, not shooters. Jagr's role is to be the shooter, not the passer.

[sdh 0]

He implies Jagr doesn't make his teammates better...HA! LAUGHABLE. Its kind of hard when you have the puck and your teammates watch instead of playing. When you have the puck and no one gets open into lanes or anything- they just stand in a perimeter formation. Jagr has revitalized both Straka/Nylander careers. And they are both playmakers. So Jagr has to do it all. But he gave them plenty of chances. When you watch the games, you notice. If they could finish to save their mothers lives, they would both have 35 goals.

This is exactly why Jagr is just a phenomenal player, but not the better choice for the Hart. When Thornton arrived in SJ he changed they way guys around him played. You can see him coaching people on the ice. He also plays on the penalty killing unit.

By your criteria, Ovechkin is more deserving than Jagr. He has even less support and almost as many goals and assists. And he doesn't have Nylander or Straka. Check the stats and you won't find a washington player anywhere near the top 50.

And why no mention of Lundqvist when people talk about NYR's turn around season? I'd say he was a big part of it.

Thornton just seems to be the definition of the award. IMHO of course :D

[Chadd 916]

And why no mention of Lundqvist when people talk about NYR's turn around season? I'd say he was a big part of it.

Lundqvist should be in the top five for Hart, Calder and Vezina. Maybe even top two for Vezina.

[Jason Harris 31]

Jagr is the best player in the world....

That's the reason I've always hated that there is only an MVP award and not a Player of the Year award also, since those often wouldn't be the same player but they end up being so since voters don't have a choice.

I'll grant you that it's difficult to compare apples to apples, since Jagr has been with the Rangers all season, but the award is for Most Valuable Player. I've always viewed it as "Take the guy off the team and how would they do?" By the way, it's always bothered me that a player generally has to be on a Top 3 team, because maybe a guy contributes to 80% of the points on the eighth place team. Perhaps they would have been 13th without him.

In any event, it's easy to measure the impact Thornton has had on San Jose -- while replacing three players! That seems to be the definition of Most Valuable.

[The Playoff Beard 0]

I don't know how seriously you can be taken when you imply that Jagr doesn't make his teammates better

Jagr doesn't make guys better? Another one who obviously hasn't watched any Ranger games. If Jagr got it, he'd deserve it 100%. Jagr doesn't have a finisher. You say they got guys to make Jagr better? Ha. They got guys to make him more comfortable. BIG DIFFERENCE. When you actually watch a Ranger game, you will see that he is the one catalyst on the ice (like Joe is for SJ), but he is the one who makes guys better and makes things happen. And he doesn't have a finisher like Joe has. It can't be stressed enough that if Jagr had a competant guy who could finish, he would have 20 more points. And you realize this quickly when you see Straka hit posts or not hit the net nearly enough. And obviously, Nylander is a playmaker at heart and plays like one. SO Jagr has the goal scoring burden of that line, yet he does set guys up like very few can. His assists stat is deflated because of his lack of top notch teammates.

At this point I'd be fair enough to say you can make a good case either way, which is even different from my thinking a week ago. Hey...You said it yourself. SJ was underachieving this year before Joe came in, but now they are only a 6-8th seed, if I am correct. The Rangers overachieved leaps and bounds and they are 1st in their division.

You failed to note that the Rangers were projected to finish 30th as well. I have to wonder if your making accusations of people not watching Western games is defense for your obvious lack of watching games from the East.

Cheechoo had 30 goals in his sophmore season and in a crap NHL, yet you say his potential was 30 goals? hmm

Nylander is having a career year at 34 years old solely because of Jagr. But shooting is hit last resort. Straka is having an awesome year, but his top year in goals was 35. Simply put, Jagr is playing with two playmakers and the lowest scoring defensive corps in the league and still has 70 assists. Thats no easy feat and shows just how much he makes people better

Theo, maybe you're right, I have only seen like 7 or 8 Ranger games this year. I shouldn't have said that Jagr doesn't make his teammates better. I also didn't mention the projections because they are just that...projections, last season no one thought the Sharks were going to win the division but they did.

It's a tough argument. Thornton has more dimes, Jagr has more goals, points on the season is too close to call. So lets call the last month of the season a tie breaker.

Since April.

Joe Thornton - 9 games 19 PTS

SJ Sharks last five games 5-0

The Sharks went being out of the playoffs to clinching the 5 seed and making tonight's game meaningless. It's not home ice but it was as high as we could possibly finish.

Jaromir Jagr - 7 games 8 PTS

NY Rangers Last 5 games 1-4

(w/ four straigt losses where NY only scored 2+ goals against PIT )

The Rangers STILL haven't clinched the division and will have to play a meaningful game on the last game of the season losing could result in losing home ice. Making them the exact same team as the sharks...maybe even ONLY a 6th seed. Lack of goaltending is one thing, they need Lundqvist back bad, but, Isn't lack of goal production something Jagr has control over?

It's not how you start, but how you finish.

Jagr - Most Outstanding Player

Thornton - Most Valuable Player

EDITED FOR TOO MANY QUOTE BOXES - SORRY.