Skate Profiling /Pitch

[hockeymom 2]

Hoping you can give me some direction with my current obsession:

getting a better understanding of skate profiling/pitch and the effect on

1. the bio-mechanics of skating and 2. skating performance (especially hockey).

So far I have found a few research studies but it is pretty slim. I've heard a university in Pennslyvania (not sure which one) did a study on optimal pitch and skating performance but I've been unable to track it down.

Do you know of any studies or sources?

~ I'm casting a pretty wide net at this point so any web-sites/articles/books/research studies would be appreciated.

[speedcraft 0]

You may find this Discovery Channel Video useful. It's about a University hockey team skate blade/performance study performed by Kinesiology Professor Kelly Lockwood (guessing on the spelling). The show was very interesting, but unfortunately it didn’t provide a great deal of detail about the methods/results. Perhaps you could contact the professor or Discover Channel for more information?

Good Luck

Warren

[JR Boucicaut 3801]

Of course not, it was Bob Allen. You have to pay for that

A friend of mine went to a camp where he did something similar and his son was filming it and Bob made him stop the recording.

[sn1per 0]

I've been looking for this video. Saw it once on TV, thought it was really cool.

[hockeymom 2]

You may find this Discovery Channel Video useful. It's about a University hockey team skate blade/performance study performed by Kinesiology Professor Kelly Lockwood (guessing on the spelling). The show was very interesting, but unfortunately it didn’t provide a great deal of detail about the methods/results. Perhaps you could contact the professor or Discover Channel for more information?

Good Luck

Warren

Thanks Warren...You have no idea the time/embarrassment you've saved me on this one!

I'd already tracked down Prof Lockwood's first study from hours of going through Sports Symposium cases... and she's kindly offered to meet/chat with me. I want to get some more fact-finding completed first so I can ask more intelligent questions.

AND I'd come across this video - but had abandoned it thinking it was Kimoto dragons miss-linked by Discovery Channel... LOL... guess I should be more patient!!

[TML4LIFE 0]

Not exactly on topic.. but what are the biggest factors in determining what profile radius and pitch should be applied to a blade when contouring.. Is there some sort of formula based on these factors.. just curious..

[hockeymom 2]

Not exactly on topic.. but what are the biggest factors in determining what profile radius and pitch should be applied to a blade when contouring.. Is there some sort of formula based on these factors.. just curious..

Actually, I think your Q is on topic...and it is questions of this sort that started me down this path. I can't speak to the formula or templates used; I was hoping someone who does profiling would answer your Q cuz I'm at the "muddling through it" stage. I suspect they consider their template proprietary information. But here's my inexpert attempt at the basic concepts and my curiosities - perhaps the people who know this stuff will jump in and correct where I'm off base.

That we can skate at all on one thin blade is a minor miracle in physics. More blade in contact (a longer radius) increases glide, which results in faster speed and a more stable surface (increased balance). Less blade in contact with the ice (a shorter radius) increases the ability to make sharp turns faster (be more agile) which is essentially using the leverage of the part of the blade not in contact with the ice. Generally beginner skaters and defense want a longer radius - for increased stability (dif purposes of course!) and forwards - as their skating skill level increases - shorten their radius for increased agility. But what point is ideal for the individual skater? I figure you are either working from a template or you're analyzing the individual skaters movement and adjusting it from there.

The pitch of the skate can also be altered which will change your balance point in skates making it easier to skate forwards or backwards. Generally a more forward/positive pitch shifts the balance point forward/over the balls of your feet - which is preferred for forwards. A more backward/negative pitch would shift your balance point more to your heels - which is preferred for defense. Again, what point is ideal for the individual skater? And since this can alter or lower your balance point - which is good - logically you would need to work from where your existing balance point is to know how much adjustment is necessary for where it should be for optimum performance. The combination of what radius and what pitch - the sum of the parts so to speak - would also have an effect. For example, a longer radius but more forward pitch may give you increased stability/speed but also maintain agility because of the pitch. I'm sure it is a matter of degree; hense my search for research to provide a baseline of sorts. The Pennsylvania study I'm looking for apparently concluded that a 1.5 ml pitch was optimum in performance - I'd like to get my hands on that to see what performance and how it was determined and if radius changed anything.

I suspect a lot can be done to improve performance with radius and pitch - but I also suspect the amount of improvement is directly linked to assessing the individual players existing balance point and movement and making changes from there. Not all players "bend at the knees and not the waist"...and even then not to the same degree...and that factor alone directly impacts on the skater's balance point vertically and horizontally. Profiling can make a huge change here. I also suspect there are some real limitations in what profiling can do.

In my experience with horses (sorry, but it is what I am somewhat of an expert on - and bio-mechanically it still is 3 levers and a point of contact) we spent a lot of time "profiling" their feet and possibly could do a lot more with them as we didn't have to worry about glide (although I suppose crippling them would be a concern...lol). Shortening or lengthening the toe, taking a little more off inside or outside, raising or lowering the heel...or putting a different shoe on them - a longer smoother shoe increased their ability to slide. Depending on how the individual horse needed adjustment to correct problems with their footfall, stride OR their balance - and the performance job/event they had to do. All of these little changes made a quite dramatic change in how they "tracked" especially their balance-point, length and efficiency of stride and agility. It helped performance and was critical when competing at international levels. But we could never do it without watching how they tracked/moved and taking their conformation (physical body structure) into account.

Virtually all profilers have you fill out a questionaire, and I'm not sure how much they can do from that. I'm a huge believer in profiling; I've seen the miracles we've worked from the horses. But we watched how they moved and tracked and made adjustments to positively affect that. I recognize skating is different, because of the glide on ice and differences in dynamic vertical and horizontal axis. It may not be possible to make the dramatic individual changes I've seen in the horse world. In which case, if the amount/range of alterations are limited...then setting a template is fine. If that's the answer I end up with, the next place logical place I'll investigate is orthotics - because altering how the foot is making contact would be the next major adjustment. Your power may come from your core and legs but everything happens at the point of contact with the ice - getting that right seems critical.

[JR Boucicaut 3801]

Mary - wow...want a job?

You've got the most important part down. All we need is the physical part...tandem profiling :P

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

Well Hockeymom......the only part I would have to say I wouldnt agree with would be putting any player on a negative pitch.

All the defence I work with are flat or forward lean......none are reverse as it causes more problems than helps.

[willy0314 0]

i dont want to highjack this thread, but it really dosen't need another topic started.

I just bought a pair of easton 1500's and i get the feeling that the skates put me back on my heels more then I like. I've been reading alot about having a profile and radius job done to the skates, but im not sure exactly what I want to have done, and I dont want to be constantly taking my skates back to have them reground.

The skates are a size 9. Im 5'8", and play forward. I was thinking to have a 9' radius put on the skates? but that is more of an uneducated guess then anything else. And the radius job still wouldn't fix the feeling of being put back on my heels right? would I just ask the shop to measure the pitch and give me more of a forward one? or move the balance point forward?

anything you guys can help me clear up would be great.

[hockeysew 0]

now theres a horse of a different color!

I can see it now

Headlines:

" Preakness winner dq'd because of illegal rocker"

What kind of horses do you deal with-Quarter-Thorobred-Hackney-Tennesee walkers or ??

I had Jimmy radius mine a while back-he put me on 10' and it was ok but I did notice that I didnt cut as well so he is changing them to 9' with a forward pitch

I havent gotten them back yet but I'll let you know

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

i dont want to highjack this thread, but it really dosen't need another topic started.

I just bought a pair of easton 1500's and i get the feeling that the skates put me back on my heels more then I like. I've been reading alot about having a profile and radius job done to the skates, but im not sure exactly what I want to have done, and I dont want to be constantly taking my skates back to have them reground.

The skates are a size 9. Im 5'8", and play forward. I was thinking to have a 9' radius put on the skates? but that is more of an uneducated guess then anything else. And the radius job still wouldn't fix the feeling of being put back on my heels right? would I just ask the shop to measure the pitch and give me more of a forward one? or move the balance point forward?

anything you guys can help me clear up would be great.

That skate has a 2/32nds forward lean on the blade but with the way the boot is made it does feel like your sitting back abit. I would try skating on them a bit more first. I wouldnt put much more forward pitch in anything maybe a heel left instead of shaving a lot of blade.

The radius on that skate is between a 9 and 10 but usually easton is pretty good out of the box. I would worry about the pitch more than anything else.

[Quintin 16]

now theres a horse of a different color!

I can see it now

Headlines:

" Preakness winner dq'd because of illegal rocker"

What kind of horses do you deal with-Quarter-Thorobred-Hackney-Tennesee walkers or ??

I had Jimmy radius mine a while back-he put me on 10' and it was ok but I did notice that I didnt cut as well so he is changing them to 9' with a forward pitch

I havent gotten them back yet but I'll let you know

... What?

[willy0314 0]

i dont want to highjack this thread, but it really dosen't need another topic started.

I just bought a pair of easton 1500's and i get the feeling that the skates put me back on my heels more then I like.  I've been reading alot about  having a profile and radius job done to the skates, but im not sure exactly what I want to have done, and I dont want to be constantly taking my skates back to have them reground.

The skates are a size 9. Im 5'8", and play forward. I was thinking to have a 9' radius put on the skates? but that is more of an uneducated guess then anything else. And the radius job still wouldn't fix the feeling of being put back on my heels right? would I just ask the shop to measure the pitch and give me more of a forward one? or move the balance point forward?

anything you guys can help me clear up would be great.

That skate has a 2/32nds forward lean on the blade but with the way the boot is made it does feel like your sitting back abit. I would try skating on them a bit more first. I wouldnt put much more forward pitch in anything maybe a heel left instead of shaving a lot of blade.

The radius on that skate is between a 9 and 10 but usually easton is pretty good out of the box. I would worry about the pitch more than anything else.

Thanks for the info on the stock pitch. I didn't know the skates came with a set radius out of the box, I was under the impression they can be pretty inconsistant. I've been in the skates for a couple weeks now.

Im not sure if I like the idea of heal lifts, (although I've never skated with them). Being that the skates feel like they are putting me back on my heals, and I shouldn't need to worry about radius, should I just have the balance point changed? or the pitch adjusted? or do the two of them go hand in hand.

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

Hand in hand....and if you shave down the blade to get a more forward feel you tend to get to much taken off and over time gives you a weird looking blade.

I would go with a lift....

[ktang 34]

I had a dream last night. Horses were short-track speed-skating in the 2010 Winter Olympics. They were wearing Bauer One90s with custom profiling. The right (outside) skates had longer radii. The rear skates had a more forward pitch.

In the old days, the only way to determine which profile worked was to try them all. We did this by trying our buddies' skates, but this could also be done by redoing the profile over and over until you get what works.

Now with the Mission Pitch holder, you can at least quickly change the the pitch.

With the Tuuk, Cobra, CCM, and Easton holders, it would be nice if different profiles were available; then you could switch until it feels right. I suppose that is available with t'blades.

Golf clubs can be fitted based on body measurements and a video analysis of the golfer's swing. Maybe this can be done for hockey players, too.

I wonder how many players are "skate gals/guys" enough to worry about profile?

I have changed my radius from 7' to 13' to 11' the last few years.

[hockeysew 0]

now theres a horse of a different color!

I can see it now

Headlines:

            " Preakness winner dq'd because of illegal rocker"

What kind of horses do you deal with-Quarter-Thorobred-Hackney-Tennesee walkers or ??

I had Jimmy radius mine a while back-he put me on 10' and it was ok but I did notice that I didnt cut as well so he is changing them to 9' with a forward pitch

I havent gotten them back yet but I'll let you know

... What?

In regards to Hockeymoms post on the horses-just a lil fun

Didnt mean to freak you out there Quintin ;)

[JR Boucicaut 3801]

I had a dream last night. Horses were short-track speed-skating in the 2010 Winter Olympics. They were wearing Bauer One90s with custom profiling. The right (outside) skates had longer radii. The rear skates had a more forward pitch.

In the old days, the only way to determine which profile worked was to try them all. We did this by trying our buddies' skates, but this could also be done by redoing the profile over and over until you get what works.

Now with the Mission Pitch holder, you can at least quickly change the the pitch.

With the Tuuk, Cobra, CCM, and Easton holders, it would be nice if different profiles were available; then you could switch until it feels right. I suppose that is available with t'blades.

Golf clubs can be fitted based on body measurements and a video analysis of the golfer's swing. Maybe this can be done for hockey players, too.

I wonder how many players are "skate gals/guys" enough to worry about profile?

I have changed my radius from 7' to 13' to 11' the last few years.

It'd be too many SKUs.

[Quintin 16]

now theres a horse of a different color!

I can see it now

Headlines:

            " Preakness winner dq'd because of illegal rocker"

What kind of horses do you deal with-Quarter-Thorobred-Hackney-Tennesee walkers or ??

I had Jimmy radius mine a while back-he put me on 10' and it was ok but I did notice that I didnt cut as well so he is changing them to 9' with a forward pitch

I havent gotten them back yet but I'll let you know

... What?

In regards to Hockeymoms post on the horses-just a lil fun

Didnt mean to freak you out there Quintin ;)

Haha, it's alright man. My brain wasn't working so I just got a lil confused that's all.

ktang - You had a dream about SKATES?!?

[ktang 34]

I dreamt about skates. Increasing pressure at work, so it was a nice break; at least I wasn't dreaming about work.

[hockeymom 2]

I had a dream last night. Horses were short-track speed-skating in the 2010 Winter Olympics. They were wearing Bauer One90s with custom profiling. The right (outside) skates had longer radii. The rear skates had a more forward pitch.

ktang: Well, I can see why your dream turned into a nightmare and your horse didn’t make the podium. You have them profiled all wrong. (I’m surprised JR didn’t pick up on this). You want to shorten up on the front end for a cleaner break-over and lengthen the toe on the rear with a neutral pitch – this will allow the horse to get his hindlegs up underneath himself for better balance and increased power.

Besides that, after considerable research into the subject, including some field work, I have concluded that skates and horses make lousy dream subjects – especially for stress relief. Now, I don’t want to tell you what to dream, because well, different strokes for different folks …but I’d highly recommend a different subject the next time you need to relieve some stress.

[hockeymom 2]

Mary - wow...want a job?

You've got the most important part down. All we need is the physical part...tandem profiling :P

Gee, that’s something I’ve never considered…I’ll have to add it to my list for serious contemplation over my nine week summer holiday that starts, what, today?!! Yes…today…I am freeeeee

As for the rest….. JR, JR, JR….give yourself a shake man; you’re definitely cruisin’ for a bruisin’ …LOL, you crack me up. Besides I KNOW you save that for the boyz in your shop!

Seriously for just one moment…thanks JR

[hockeymom 2]

Now getting back onto this serious research thread.....

ktang...I'd be interested in hearing what your experience was with all of the different radius. And I think the video would solve a bunch of the limitations with a questionaire. You're probably quite correct that most skaters aren't really aware of the effect of their profile enough to worry abut it.

Hockeysew...Thanks for sorting out Quintin! lol Horese: QH for the most part and some Thoroughbreds - and across all disciplines from racing, reining, dressage, jumping, and pleasure. I would also be interested in hearing about your journey through the land of the radia.

oldtrainerguy...Thanks, that negative pitch thing was bugging me. Am I correct that it should be a neutral or positive pitch because at some point, in some game, someone is actually going to expect the D to skate in a fowards direction??? Seems somewhat counter-productive to me to set an optimum for only one direction.

[ktang 34]

7' (custom profiles on CCM prolite 3, Tuuk Custom+, neutral leans) - Because I am short (5'8") with a low centre of gravity, this was the best radius for me. Very easy to start, stop, turn, crossover, and spinnerama, so it really helped the forechecking and playing D. I could pump around doing full-speed crossovers well inside the faceoff circles. However, it was very tiring chasing people or breaking away.

9' (Tuuk Custom+, neutral lean) - Not quite as maneuverable (turns and crossovers), but a little bit better glide. Starts and stops are still good.

10' (E-RPL Pro stock, slight forward lean) - Good glide and speed, but not as maneuvrable. More stability. Harder to forecheck, but easier to backcheck.

11' (CCM Prolite 3, probably modified, slight forward lean) - Not as maneuvrable, and hard to do fast starts. I really had to turn the skates sideways to do front starts. Could pull away from people on breaks. Good stability.

13' (E-RPL Pro, custom, aggressive forward lean) - Not maneuvrable at all; could barely stay inside the faceoff circles when pumping crossovers. Very bad for forechecking. Really had to concentrate on the start techniques, using more of the middle of the blades. Have to skid almost all turns. Very good top-end speed for pulling away and back-checking. This profile was really good for my offense, but bad for my forechecking and PK.

[flip12 715]

Get Adidas back into skates. Maybe they can come out with a $1500 US skate that has a computer chip in the holder that can modify the pitch/radius/hollow on the fly with settings for different game situations like their overpriced and heavy running shoe.