Hockeymonkey.com

[cobrAA 0]

if i was living in the USA(well i wouldn't quit canada lol but..if i could get the price you get) I would always buy locally,even for stick. with the currency,your price are still lower than us and we have that stupid 15% of tax. And i think the salary in the USA is pretty the same to Canada.

So I don't get why some of you are still saying price in USA are expensive(well it is, but less than Canada AND WAY LESS than Europe lol!! poor you euro guys!!)

[rugdnit 0]

Not if it's a current model item. I buy stuff online on closeout, but if it's a current item I got to my LHS and pick it up there. The minor price difference is made up for in the shipping, and the guy at the shop knows me and cuts me a deal here and there. I'm not buying stuff every week, but it's better than buying solely online.

This has probably been discussed before, but if there was any way for the LHS to discount/clearance older models, I think business would pick up for them. I've gone to my LHS and seen stuff that is anywhere from 2-3 years old and is selling for maybe 10% less than its original retail value, and much of it was still at original price. (There's some REALLy old stock going for cheap) The way I see it, trying to sell that item at full price gets you nothing but wasted space on the rack/wall. even if you sell the item at or below your cost from 2-3 years ago, it's better than getting nothing for it when trying to sell it at full retail price. Selling at a discount brings in some money, makes the customer happy and more likely to come back, and probably best of all, opens up valuable shelf and/or storage space for the store. Maybe my LHS is the only one that doesn't really clearance anything until it's like 7 years old , however.

We're just beating a dead horse though, this has gone on since the online stores started popping up and this conversation has been had way too often even in the short time that I've been on MSH. I hadn't commented before, and I'll probably stay away from them in the future, but I got to put in my 2 cents.

it's not just the sale you miss out on. it costs ALOT of money for a dealer to bring in a size run.... say even something small like sz 3 through 10. tying up that kind of money so people can use you to size themselves is frustrating. making $25-$35 dollars on a pair of gloves or a OPS is not a consolation price. i dislike fitting fees, but it seems to be neccessary. most managers make sure the pricing is very competitive, but we can't compete with closeouts because, the large online guys usually get offered the closeout product first. some mfgs are getting better at this by offering it to the smaller guys first.

[rugdnit 0]

BTW- a good shop MGR shouldn't let something sit very long. if it has been 6 mos with no action it's better to discount it before it's a total loss a year or more later.

[ag12 0]

Here's one that happened to me yesterday.

On Saturday dad and daughter come in looking for skates. Turned out she was in a size 6 and was in a senior skate. after 45 min, the XXX fit her best. However, he did not want to spend $469 on skates, because she had only played ice for two years. I asked him how long she was playing roller for, and he said since 5, so that was about 9 years. I asked him what kind of inlines he bought her...and he said "always top-end."

I told him if that is the case, why skimp out since she is playing ice? He agreed and then asked me what time we closed (first tell-tale sign of you being shopped) and left.

Yesterday the daughter walks into the shop and asks to buy some waxed laces. Immediately a red flag goes up. I follow her downstairs and I go to the bathroom and I notice she is lacing up a pair of XXXs. I walk up to her and asked her where she bought those. She said "Oh we got them online for $299.99." Noticed the nice hole in the tongue. I can't wait until she has problems with the skates.

And this is why I am tired of this business.

I suppose you could say this is the "Walmartizing" of the hockey industry. It's unfortunate that the single shop owner is getting the shaft due to large internet stores selling skates at a much lower cost due to volume. But I think the blame can go to the manufactures since they are willing to sell skates at different price points to the internet stores and the LHS, you sacrifice service for cost. Eventually some shop owners may just get fed up (as with JR) and get out of the business all together and then the hockey community loses out. Who do you go to if you need some quality work done on your skates? And who can blame the consumer for going to the low cost internet store for the same product? It's apparent somewhere a balance needs to be met. For example, look at how many local hardware stores exist today. Now we are stuck with Home Depot and Lowes, and it's always an adventure finding someone 1st and then seeing if they "know their stuff" is the next issue!!

[NuggyBuggy 0]

Thats why a fitting fee isn't a bad idea.  I think it was JR who talked about implementing one a few years ago.  Charge a customer a set price up front for helping them get fit for a specific piece of equipment (particularly skates), and then waive the fee if they buy it from your store.

I can tell you that I for one would never try on a pair of skates if there was a fitting fee involved unless the fee is so nominal that there would be barely any point in charging one. For me, a fitting fee would only make sense if I really need new skates and I know the store sells the brand and model I will end up in. But 1) when I've bought new equipment - including skates - I never really need it, it's always an impulse purchase. The fitting fee will be a huge disincentive to impulse buys. And 2) most stores don't sell all brands/models of skates. On principle alone, I'm not paying someone more than a few bucks to find out the skates he sells don't fit me, all the while knowing that I might want to go somewhere else to try on a brand or model the first guy doesn't sell to see if they fit me better. MAYBE I would pay the fee if the fee were refundable against other purchases in the store.

[DarkStar50 680]

Thats why a fitting fee isn't a bad idea.  I think it was JR who talked about implementing one a few years ago.  Charge a customer a set price up front for helping them get fit for a specific piece of equipment (particularly skates), and then waive the fee if they buy it from your store.

I can tell you that I for one would never try on a pair of skates if there was a fitting fee involved unless the fee is so nominal that there would be barely any point in charging one. For me, a fitting fee would only make sense if I really need new skates and I know the store sells the brand and model I will end up in. But 1) when I've bought new equipment - including skates - I never really need it, it's always an impulse purchase. The fitting fee will be a huge disincentive to impulse buys. And 2) most stores don't sell all brands/models of skates. On principle alone, I'm not paying someone more than a few bucks to find out the skates he sells don't fit me, all the while knowing that I might want to go somewhere else to try on a brand or model the first guy doesn't sell to see if they fit me better. MAYBE I would pay the fee if the fee were refundable against other purchases in the store.

You are definitely not the average customer. After 28 years selling hockey gear, I have yet to meet the customer who buys skates on impulse, not because he needed them. My experience has been the skate buyer needs the skates, not I think I'll spend $200, $300 or $400+ on skates for the heck of it. Every now and then I will size up the customer and his dad or the solo shopper who says "I'm looking at skates and want to try on this and this." I will flat out say "Are you ready to purchase skates now?" Sometimes they say yes, sometimes they say bs to me, and sometimes they say no. I know its not polite or right but like jimmy and others, my time is money. My bosses have me here to earn, not burn. So, like JR and others we often have people wait for us specifically because they want us to fit them or their kids but it is the ones I don't know or recognize that I pay special attention to before we get started. This year's online shop is the catalog shop I used to battle against in the 80s. You do this long enough and the fitting fee issue becomes your only weapon in separating the customer who is ready to buy from the customer who is ready to use your time, your inventory, and your knowledge to stick it to you and then shop online. I have no problems with you guys in Oshkosh without an LHS, but in my location and with my inventory, it is a whole other ballgame.

[jimmy 194]

I got burned again today. Customer comes in and wants to try on a bauer 5500 helmet and Bauer gloves. After we waste 15 minutes or so, digging out helmets and explaining the gloves and trying on sizes, the customer says, oh, I'm not buying them, I just need to get the size so my team can do a team order. They want us all to wear 5500 helmets and we get a good deal if we do. I almost said get the F out and go to the place you are going to get the helmets from and have them size you. You bastard! WTF did I get out of this? Nothing. In fact, we had to put aside packing for our move to help this a$$hole. He even cost me money by opening my door during the heat wave and letting my valuable and costly air conditioning out.

And many of you folks think it's no big deal to scam your LHS. That's what's sad. I tell you, civility in hockey has really gone downhill over the years. I was at the rink today at lunch playing with the guys, and there was a camp going on. The inconsiderate little bastards took every locker room in the building, 4 bags per room. And then started complaining when we were getting dressed in "their" room.

[dustedvinyl 0]

^^ yep... definitely know that feeling.

[DamnLocust 0]

Not meaning to backtrack on the thread, but do the online retailers generally purchase the "closeout items" on sale from manufacturers after they've been sitting at the manufacturer, or is their closeout stuff simply old stock that has sit since the product was introduced?

Since the online warehouses stock so much of any given item, shelf space is important to them as well. If they have old stock lying around, and a shipment of something new coming in, they'll put the old stock on closeout just to make space for the new shipment.

This is also in effect for the LHS, but there's a second factor at play here. Take this hypothetical: If you're stocked that means that you have already paid x dollars for your stock (or are in the process of paying that money) If you have 100 leftover units from last year's modelthat you paid let's just say $100, still at retail price of $115, let's say that you'll sell 10-15% of that leftover stock. If you decide to markdown approx. 15%, and you're selling at cost- $100, you will sell 35-40% of your leftover stock. If you go approx. 25% off and sell for $85(actually losing money on each item you sell), you'll sell 50-55% of your remaining stock.

Now you have scenario A, B ,and C. In scenario A, you sell 15 units at $115 for a total of $1725. In B, selling at cost, you bring in revenue of $4000. In C, selling at a loss, you bring in $4675.

(I know the quantities are probably larger and the prices lower than what smaller LHS really experience, but I wanted round numbers and you get the idea)

Regardless of which scenario you picked, there is 10,000 invested in the old stock. Regardless of which scenario you pick, you will not bring back that full amount that you invested. But notice that the most revenue will be generated, in this case, by selling items below cost. Not only that, but you will have more stock space as well for the new items coming in. You can't easily predict what percentage of stock will move at what discount given, but I wanted to show how it is possible to end up better off by selling items below cost.

[JR Boucicaut 3810]

Not meaning to backtrack on the thread, but do the online retailers generally purchase the "closeout items" on sale from manufacturers after they've been sitting at the manufacturer, or is their closeout stuff simply old stock that has sit since the product was introduced?

Both. Mfgrs send out closeout lists.

[jcp2 2]

Since the online warehouses stock so much of any given item, shelf space is important to them as well. If they have old stock lying around, and a shipment of something new coming in, they'll put the old stock on closeout just to make space for the new shipment.

Warehouse space is cheap, cheap, cheap. You can just put stuff anywhere you want. Good retail space is not. Even less so if you want to make a good presentation and layout. Not much extra room in a rink pro shop.

You can't easily predict what percentage of stock will move at what discount given, but I wanted to show how it is possible to end up better off by selling items below cost.

You must mean less worse off. You can't keep on losing money, regardless of how little, and still stay in business. The whole point is to avoid investing $10,000 in the first place if you think you won't be able to sell that much product. If manufacturers have minimum booking orders, then you're in a bit of a jam if you have a smaller operation.

[saba 0]

One thing to ad some of the closeout stuff we are talking about is nic nack stuff not high end stuff. Rarely have I seen OPS and skates at clearance prices, more t-shirts, crap hockey wheels etc....My argument is more of some kind of discount that is meaningful on 2 year old merchandise. I'm sorry but if you have Tour G80 skates for $399 and not even offer me 10-15-20% off to get those skates out of your store, then I will be one of those aholes you store owners keep mentioning.....To me its about FOSTERING A RELATIONSHIP, that means give and take for both parties. I'll accept top cost for an OPS but I want some concession from you some time in the future. If as a manager/owner you cannot/will not budge in these purchase negotiations then I can take my business elsewhere

[jimmy 194]

[

Warehouse space is cheap, cheap, cheap. You can just put stuff anywhere you want. Good retail space is not. Even less so if you want to make a good presentation and layout. Not much extra room in a rink pro shop.

You must mean less worse off. You can't keep on losing money, regardless of how little, and still stay in business. The whole point is to avoid investing $10,000 in the first place if you think you won't be able to sell that much product. If manufacturers have minimum booking orders, then you're in a bit of a jam if you have a smaller operation.

Yes for sure. When I was looking at space for my new store, warehouse was going for $5.50 a sf. My actual cost for my new retail store is $14.50 per sf. So $9 per sf more times say 3000 sf, is a lot of money to recoup each month just to pay the bills. and I won't even go into how expensive store fixtures are.

[jcp2 2]

If as a manager/owner you cannot/will not budge in these purchase negotiations then I can take my business elsewhere

It's not a garage sale. If minimizing margins on wholesale pricing is all that you care about, in the long run, you'll only be able to get your stuff from www.hockeygiantfaceoffmonkeywarehouse.com or Dick's Sporting Goods.

[JR Boucicaut 3810]

I'm sorry but if you have Tour G80 skates for $399 and not even offer me 10-15-20% off to get those skates out of your store, then I will be one of those aholes you store owners keep mentioning.....To me its about FOSTERING A RELATIONSHIP, that means give and take for both parties. I'll accept top cost for an OPS but I want some concession from you some time in the future. If as a manager/owner you cannot/will not budge in these purchase negotiations then I can take my business elsewhere

Just because you like to eat doesn't mean a restaurant must give you a break on your meal.

[BK 0]

One thing to ad some of the closeout stuff we are talking about is nic nack stuff not high end stuff. Rarely have I seen OPS and skates at clearance prices, more t-shirts, crap hockey wheels etc....My argument is more of some kind of discount that is meaningful on 2 year old merchandise. I'm sorry but if you have Tour G80 skates for $399 and not even offer me 10-15-20% off to get those skates out of your store, then I will be one of those aholes you store owners keep mentioning.....To me its about FOSTERING A RELATIONSHIP, that means give and take for both parties. I'll accept top cost for an OPS but I want some concession from you some time in the future. If as a manager/owner you cannot/will not budge in these purchase negotiations then I can take my business elsewhere

So you're saying that if you go to 7-11 a lot and get slurpees every day, you expect them to drop the price for you or you wont come back?... Have fun finding another frozen beverage.

Prices are set.. Tiawana is a few hours south.. go barder for a "Bower XXX Light" there.. im sure they will appreciate your return business.

[DarkStar50 680]

One thing to ad some of the closeout stuff we are talking about is nic nack stuff not high end stuff. Rarely have I seen OPS and skates at clearance prices, more t-shirts, crap hockey wheels etc....My argument is more of some kind of discount that is meaningful on 2 year old merchandise. I'm sorry but if you have Tour G80 skates for $399 and not even offer me 10-15-20% off to get those skates out of your store, then I will be one of those aholes you store owners keep mentioning.....To me its about FOSTERING A RELATIONSHIP, that means give and take for both parties. I'll accept top cost for an OPS but I want some concession from you some time in the future. If as a manager/owner you cannot/will not budge in these purchase negotiations then I can take my business elsewhere

Now that we know how you feel as a consumer, my question is what do you do to earn the money you spend fostering that relationship. Do you give back to your customers where you work? Your idea of Utopia is great. I just want to know exactly what state or province, which country.

I understand your position on the 2 year old skates and mark down prices with old product. I do that now and then to move old product. The other idea of "purchase negotiations" sounds like a flea market, not the type of business most of are running. I hope you have a lot of shops close by to work this arrangement out with.

[Project_2501 0]

I've only a few times heard of stuff being sold way below regular price, both time they were ultra-lites and both times said person bought a near full set of gear.

I could never ask my LHS owner for free stuff, that's just now how our economy works...

[jimmy 194]

Now that we know how you feel as a consumer, my question is what do you do to earn the money you spend fostering that relationship. Do you give back to your customers where you work? Your idea of Utopia is great. I just want to know exactly what state or province, which country.

I understand your position on the 2 year old skates and mark down prices with old product. I do that now and then to move old product. The other idea of "purchase negotiations" sounds like a flea market, not the type of business most of are running. I hope you have a lot of shops close by to work this arrangement out with.

Darkstar, that's actually a very good point you made. If a person sat down and compared what we do with their job or business, then perhaps they would understand. Those whose jobs have been outsourced to India, understand. Those in construction who lost their jobs to an Illegal alian, they understand.

I think people get spoiled by ebay deals and now EXPECT that LHS's should match ebay.

[DamnLocust 0]

I don't expect you guys to match ebay or the online stores. I don't expect you guys to cut prices in half as soon as something goes on closeout online. And I'm not looking for a flea market or barter situation at the LHS. (Maybe you could do silent auction for the really nice stuff? j/k)

If you've got old stock and it's just sitting on the shelf at full retail price, and there's the brand new model sitting next to it for the same price or 10-15% more, I think most people will go for the new stuff simply because it's new and it's not much more expensive than the older stuff. If that difference becomes 25-30% off, many people will still buy the new stock, but others will definitely consider taking your old stock merchandise. The investment was made into the merch regardless, and that money's not coming back unless it sells, so why not do your best to get a return on it?

[JR Boucicaut 3810]

A smart store shouldn't have to try to get full retail on old items. They would have either sold it or discounted it at the right time to get rid of it.

[DamnLocust 0]

edit: I thought I read something else, but JR is right. You shouldn't leave something at full price if you can tell it's not going to be gone by the time new stock comes in.

__________

They shouldn't have to if they stocked themselves properly, but it's impossible to know just how many of a given item in given size will move in a season. Sometimes you buy too much, sometimes you buy too little, and you adjust accordingly each season. Regardless, there WILL be those times that you're left with stock.

[JR Boucicaut 3810]

Which brings me to my point about discounting it at the right time. You do not want product that is going to be stagnant once the new stuff comes around.

I hear ya, there's plenty of stores that want full retail for stuff that is 2-3 years old. But understand that those stores work with limited budgets and simply cannot afford to do so.

IF you want your LHS to be there for you, support it and it will be. Finding other avenues to buy product will kill them. The more you put in, the more you will get.

[jimmy 194]

Which brings me to my point about discounting it at the right time. You do not want product that is going to be stagnant once the new stuff comes around.

I hear ya, there's plenty of stores that want full retail for stuff that is 2-3 years old. But understand that those stores work with limited budgets and simply cannot afford to do so.

IF you want your LHS to be there for you, support it and it will be. Finding other avenues to buy product will kill them. The more you put in, the more you will get.

You are not being realistic. As you know we prebuy in January and the stuff gets delivered in the summer. We have no clue the manufacturer is going to spring a new model or two in November. They don't give us this secret info. So when the new stuff comes out, that essentially kills sales on the previous models. Even when they "let secrets out" by advertising hints that a new model is in the works or will be out, sales go stagnant on the current models. I'm almost at the point that I'm just going to order 1 each of each item, because I can't trust the manufacturer to keep that item fresh for even 6 months.

[JR Boucicaut 3810]

Not being realistic? Maybe YOU don't get the secret info :) If you buy smart, you won't get burned. Simple.