Wrong stick lie

[hockeymom 2]

I have screwed up on a new stick for my daughter and would appreciate your direction.

People have been trying to get her to use a OPS for past couple of years, but she has been so thrilled with her intermediate CCM fiberglass/woodie in Recchi pattern she has refused to budge and thought spending $100's of dollars on a stick was insane. Well that stick was getting harder and harder to find, and possibly has been discontinued, so last spring someone had a brand new stick that didn't work for their kid and sold it to me for cheap. It's the Rebellion Dangerous White intermediate in pattern 11 - which is the identical mid-curve (really a forsberg) that she loves. I knew the lie was a titch off from her current stick, but thought it was close enough to be ok. I figured it would be a good/inexpensive way for her to test drive an OPS... and then figure out what is the "right" stick.

The problem... She just used the stick the other day for the first time and there is definite heel wear; close is not right. I'm ready to toss the sucker out as my mistake, but my daughter thinks it is worth hanging in with it for a while.

* She is working on correcting her skating (bends forward too much from the waist) and thinks as she sorts out her stance, the problem with the lie will ALSO likely get sorted out. Is it possible she is right about this?

* Although she loved the effortless shot... she remains unconvinced about OPS, and wants to see how it performs with passing and stickhandling. I think the wrong lie won't give her an accurate assessment of stickhandling. Am I correct that the wrong lie will screw up her stickhandling... or am I making a big deal out of a small matter? (I also think she should try a 2-piece)

Some direction please...Do I toss this out immediately and find a OPS stick with the right lie?

Thanks for your help!

[mack 44]

You could shorten the stick, which would be one way to 'correct' the lie.

[Hoquyguy 0]

The Modano curve is actually a lower lie than the Recchi curve. The standard Easton Modano has a lie of 5 and the CCM blade has a lie of 5.5. As a shorter person with a long stick, I look for patterns with low (farther away from the body) lies. I don't know if the Rebellion curve is exactly like a Modano/Forsberg, so it's hard to say. The easiest thing you can do is take the stick to a local shop and compare it to the Easton blade. In any case, the previous person had it right. You can just shorten the stick by an inch or two. If you are hard set on a low lie stick, the lowest one I know of is the Warrior Federov pattern. Same curve as a Modano but a lie of 4.5.

[sc37 0]

Wrong lie does affect your stick work a bit. I was using the wrong lie for the longest time cause I had bought the wrong curve...and a few times I would wiff on the puck cause it would sneak under my stick with the wrong lie.

I wouldn't go and change the skating style though...I personally skate like your daughter does, or sounds like it. If it works, stick with it. I tried to stand more upright and have my hands higher to compensate for the stick, didn't work out too well. I finally broke down and bought a new stick with a lower lie and larger rocker. But do give cutting the stick down a try as that wasn't an option in my case.

[TBLfan 25]

Wrong lie does affect your stick work a bit. I was using the wrong lie for the longest time cause I had bought the wrong curve...and a few times I would wiff on the puck cause it would sneak under my stick with the wrong lie.

I wouldn't go and change the skating style though...I personally skate like your daughter does, or sounds like it. If it works, stick with it. I tried to stand more upright and have my hands higher to compensate for the stick, didn't work out too well. I finally broke down and bought a new stick with a lower lie and larger rocker. But do give cutting the stick down a try as that wasn't an option in my case.

you should have a nice knee bend, it gives you better balance and gives you more power in your stride.

Chop an inch or so off the stick. It will also promote a deeper knee bend and help her stickhandling. Personally, I use a long stick but I wish I could get more comfortable with a short stick.

[hockeymom 2]

Thanks... She prefers a longish stick and I think I deliberately cut this one pretty short, but I'll take a look at it and shave as much off as possible. Certainly worth a try!

She does need to sort out her stance - the bend at the waist is a bad habit developed to compensate for her poor balance. Sadly, like a lot of compensating habits... it is now holding back her skating.

If I am hearing you correctly... shortening the stick will help to a certain extent, but really I should start looking for an exact match for her CCM woodie - which has the perfect lie for her right now.

[sc37 0]

Hmmm, not to detract from the topic, but never thought about the waist bend as something to compensate for balance. Cause I am a pretty good skater, and pretty fast, but I'm just hunched over. Maybe I should look into the treadmill they got at the rink...sounds like I can get even more out of my skating.

[Project_2501 0]

Oh, in cutting it, don't cut too much all at once, just a little bit at a time.

[xMenace 0]

Oh, in cutting it, don't cut too much all at once, just a little bit at a time.

Yah, shave a little at a time till the wear is correct. I'd wait a bit till her skating adjustments settle in. Skating lower will mean shaving more.

I'd say that unless she is an elite player -- you are looking at scholarships and/or national exposure -- she will notice no difference in the lie. If she's happy, that's what counts. Only if she has trouble handling the puck close to her feet, would I then make a switch back.

[DamnLocust 0]

Yah, shave a little at a time till the wear is correct. I'd wait a bit till her skating adjustments settle in. Skating lower will mean shaving more.

I'd say that unless she is an elite player -- you are looking at scholarships and/or national exposure -- she will notice no difference in the lie. If she's happy, that's what counts. Only if she has trouble handling the puck close to her feet, would I then make a switch back.

If It's wearing on the heel, it should be easier for her to handle the puck in close to her feet.

You said you cut it deliberately short.. how much shorter did you cut itthan the woodie?

If she's used to and comfortable handling the puck away from her body, this may cause her to continue with the leaning-over stance. I don't use a super-long stick, but it seems each time I get one I'm going with a longer shaft (1-2") for more reach. If she's used to this extra reach and playing the puck away from the body, she may hunch over more to keep the puck in the same place relative to her body. If she doesn't change her stance, she will need to adjust her stickhandling to keep the puck in close.

If you want to "correct" her hunched over stance, I'd suggest a stick with the same length as the CCM, but a higher lie- with emphasis to keep the blade flat on the ice as she skates. this will cause her to change the angle at which she holds the stick, which will keep her more upright, while at the same time, she can handle the puck farther away from her body as she has probably become used to. Even better, put a butt end in the current stick and let her get used to it before spending more money on a stick that may not be just right for her.

edit: this is just what's going on in my head, but i could be way off base.

[hockeymom 2]

Yah, shave a little at a time till the wear is correct. I'd wait a bit till her skating adjustments settle in. Skating lower will mean shaving more.

I'd say that unless she is an elite player -- you are looking at scholarships and/or national exposure -- she will notice no difference in the lie. If she's happy, that's what counts. Only if she has trouble handling the puck close to her feet, would I then make a switch back.

If It's wearing on the heel, it should be easier for her to handle the puck in close to her feet.

You said you cut it deliberately short.. how much shorter did you cut itthan the woodie?

If she's used to and comfortable handling the puck away from her body, this may cause her to continue with the leaning-over stance. I don't use a super-long stick, but it seems each time I get one I'm going with a longer shaft (1-2") for more reach. If she's used to this extra reach and playing the puck away from the body, she may hunch over more to keep the puck in the same place relative to her body. If she doesn't change her stance, she will need to adjust her stickhandling to keep the puck in close.

If you want to "correct" her hunched over stance, I'd suggest a stick with the same length as the CCM, but a higher lie- with emphasis to keep the blade flat on the ice as she skates. this will cause her to change the angle at which she holds the stick, which will keep her more upright, while at the same time, she can handle the puck farther away from her body as she has probably become used to. Even better, put a butt end in the current stick and let her get used to it before spending more money on a stick that may not be just right for her.

edit: this is just what's going on in my head, but i could be way off base.

Hmmm... there's a couple of issues I'm sorting thru here, so let me see if I can explain this better.

Using her old "perfect" woodie isn't an option because she's outgrown it - it's below her chin now; she prefers a stick length between her nose/lips.

At any rate, this OPS is a transitional stick - to test drive OPS and figure out what she wants/needs. I cut it short, meaning I didn't leave any wiggle room for growth: it is very definitely on the short side of her optimal length - right at her lips. So, I could shave a bit more off, I'm concerned if I shave too much off, it will reinforce the hunching over stance.

She has immediately noticed the difference in the lie of this stick, but thinks she should hang in with it for a while.

1. She thinks she can learn to hold this stick differently to compensate for the lie.

2. She thinks as her stance improves, she should become a bit more upright - even with a deeper kneebend - and that this lie might be ok then.

I'm wondering if we should even bother trying to make this stick work, and go to a 2-piece.

If it helps, here is a pic which shows how she carries the puck with her woodie (her bad form has improved somewhat since this pic taken, but she has a million miles to go yet).

Miss D

Once again, thank for your help - much appreciated!

[DamnLocust 0]

If she's been wearing the heel, the lie would be too high for the length of the stick. Another option that would kill 2 birds with one stone would be to keep the stick at its current length and have her focus on keeping the blade flat. There are two ways to do this: handle the puck closer to the body, or skate more upright. Again, if she wants to keep the puck farther from her body, she would have to work on a more upright stance.

I would encourage her not to change the way she holds the stick, but to work on skating more upright.

[Chadd 916]

Lie is the most crucial aspect of a stick for me. I would let her use it for summer hockey (since you already have it), but I would get something with the correct lie. You shouldn't have to think about your blade, it should be flat on the ice without having to focus on it or look at it.

[shnuggs 0]

Lie is the most crucial aspect of a stick for me.

Same here. Nuthing feels right when the Lie is off-- not just stick handling but slap shots - snap shots etc. etc. I look for a 5 Lie and work around that. Sometimes i deceive myself by trying to squeeze in to a 5.5 -- which would give me a multitude of different curve options -- but it never works.

[deadmanjolt 1]

Interesting. I have been switching between a lie 5 forsberg/modano blade and a p71 st. louis woodie, BAUER lie of 7. I have not had any issues outside of slap shot adjustment when I switch sticks. The p71 is cut SIGNIFICANTLY shorter (~3") than the forsberg.

[kosydar 0]

I remember hearing that the incorrect lie is the #1 reason why pro stock blades get sent back to the companies. I personally like a 5.5, but can go with a 5 or a 6. Some people are picky about lies, other people adjust through altering the height, like Mack said.

[jon93 0]

off topic but whats the lie of the datsyk

[Project_2501 0]

As in the P38 Rbk blade? If so, my 6k blade matches to my TPS Nash, thus being approximately 5.5.

[hockeymom 2]

I've had my cheapskate daughter attempt to prove mathematically that this stick would work (sneaky way to get a kid to do math in the summer!) - and even she now agrees it simply won't work. Although we did figure out where we made the error - she'd tried out a MUCH SHORTER teammate's stick before we bought it. Still, I did see the difference in the lie, so it is my bad.

So now I'll have to research this stuff and figure out what to get. The easiest would be a CCM OPS, but I think a blade/shaft 2 piece stick would allow us to alter the stick as her stance continues to improve. Am I correct in this or am I overthinking as usual?

Thanks again for all of your help and the pm's. Whatever would I do without MSH??!!

[pantherfan 0]

No a 2 peice would help you out as you can chage blades curve/lie

[TBLfan 25]

I've had my cheapskate daughter attempt to prove mathematically that this stick would work (sneaky way to get a kid to do math in the summer!) - and even she now agrees it simply won't work. Although we did figure out where we made the error - she'd tried out a MUCH SHORTER teammate's stick before we bought it. Still, I did see the difference in the lie, so it is my bad.

So now I'll have to research this stuff and figure out what to get. The easiest would be a CCM OPS, but I think a blade/shaft 2 piece stick would allow us to alter the stick as her stance continues to improve. Am I correct in this or am I overthinking as usual?

Thanks again for all of your help and the pm's. Whatever would I do without MSH??!!

It would allow you to change curves as you wish, and some patterns from different companies have a similar curve but different lie... For example the iginla and recchi patterns are off by about a .5 lie maybe less.

Actually, as I'm thinking of it; a shaft/blade combo would allow you to get different types of blades with longer/shorter hosels so that you can adjust length that way... So IMO yes a shaft/blade combo would allow you to adjust a LOT more than a OPS(that basically allows you to add or take a way length).

[Bamzi 0]

To determine the proper lie, what i usually do is I examine my son stick, if the blade and/or tape is worn evenly from heel to toe, he is using the proper lie.

So if the toe of the blade is worn more than the rest of the stick, you should increase the lie. If the heel is worn, swicth to a stick with a lower lie.

Foward's generally use 5 to 6 lie, the higher the lie number, the greater the angle.

This is how i chose the right lie for my 10 year old son.

[kosydar 0]

I've had my cheapskate daughter attempt to prove mathematically that this stick would work (sneaky way to get a kid to do math in the summer!) - and even she now agrees it simply won't work.  Although we did figure out where we made the error - she'd tried out a MUCH SHORTER teammate's stick before we bought it.  Still, I did see the difference in the lie, so it is my bad.

So now I'll have to research this stuff and figure out what to get.  The easiest would be a CCM OPS, but I think a blade/shaft 2 piece stick would allow us to alter the stick as her stance continues to improve.  Am I correct in this or am I overthinking as usual?

Thanks again for all of your help and the pm's.  Whatever would I do without MSH??!!

It would allow you to change curves as you wish, and some patterns from different companies have a similar curve but different lie... For example the iginla and recchi patterns are off by about a .5 lie maybe less.

Actually, as I'm thinking of it; a shaft/blade combo would allow you to get different types of blades with longer/shorter hosels so that you can adjust length that way... So IMO yes a shaft/blade combo would allow you to adjust a LOT more than a OPS(that basically allows you to add or take a way length).

Exactly. No offense to you or your daughter, but most kids shouldn't use OPS. While there are some advantages in terms of performance, most kids aren't capable of utilizing these and end up suffering due to a number of issues. The problem you've illustrated is one of many that the typical kid has with them. I don't know how old your daughter is and if she is still growing, but that is a big issue to deal with. Having one stick to stick with for a long period of time (which was presumably what you were going for with this) is terrible when a player is growing and developing. If the lie, curve, flex, height, etc. is off, that just makes her focus her energy on overcoming that defect, not on developing the important parts of her game. I know when the original Synergy came out I had to have one. Of course I didn't know anything about them other than they were amazing. The store I went to only had one curve so I automatically bought that one. The curve, lie, and flex were all wrong for me, and it took me a long time to figure out that I needed to go back to my 2 piece and experiment. In summary, stick with a 2-piece. TBL did a good job in explaining the benefits of it. Maybe even look into a tapered shaft/blade combo.

[jon93 0]

i went from a jr. yzerman(sakic) to a datsyuk

it felt very very weird but they are supposibly the same lie.could they be different or is it in my head?

[hockeymom 2]

No offense at all Kosy... just to clarify: my daughter is about to turn 14 - 2nd yr Bantam this fall. SHE certainly hopes she's going to continue to grow - but at 5'6" I suspect she's virtually done.

This is about exploring a transition into a composite stick...this stick was just intended to test drive - and it is not that she outgrew it - I bought the wrong stick from the get-go. She has been using the same woodie (many, many, many sticks - but the same model) for years.

But you raise an interesting point about kids using composite sticks. There has been HUGE pressure from coaches to move her into an OPS for the last couple of years; especially in the last year. With what I know now, I do wonder why they aren't advocating for a 2-pce stick.

I HAVE felt she should get her shot correct with the woodie before considering moving into a composite stick. I thought the composite stick might "prop up" bad technique, while the woodie would be less forgiving. I know some people have thought I'm nuts... but it really didn't matter either way because my daughter didn't want to change sticks.

It is probably time to capitalize on the advantages of composite sticks. If she tries it and still prefers a woodie, great. Ultimately, as always, it is about pp. Given that a "lazy" shot still rocketed off this OPS, I suspect she's been sold - with just the stickhandling as a question mark.