Therma Blade

[Hipster 5]

Sorry. I may have been semantically sloppy. What I meant to say was, simply, that any product or invention is what it is. It will perform as such, no matter what anyone says about it, or how many "New! Improved!" stickers are on its packaging. Whether it's Thermablades, T'blades, or an antibacterial toothpaste, the advertised idea of the product and the product itself are never the same thing.

And yes, in this case, I think the chief purported advantage is as dubious as doping Colgate with tricoslan.

The chief purported advantage being what? I ask because there are several purported advantages. In my opinion, The most important advantage to ME is neither "difference making" increases in speed or agility. Its the physiological benefit after about an hour. I didn't wear a VO2max harness, but I felt what I felt. I skate with the same guys every week for the past 10 years, so that was a constant.I didn't do anything different diet-wise.

I just do not believe it was my imagination.

[Hipster 5]

thank god, someone who provided some real explanation. Thanks OTG28. Interesting that the steel is thicker. I find it highly amusing that they're using the benefits of a wider blade under the guise that the therma part of their blade actually does something.

I was wondering about the merits of the holder itself... i think I even made a wise crack early on to the effect of "watch them make a holder people like"... good on them if they made something 'better'... but i guess it finally shows that any improvements really arent the result of a hotter blade. what do ya know, i was right... they're full of shit.

I would respectfully say that you are not right. Melting water under the blade does decrease friction. a wider blade does not decrease friction. The company says there are physiological benefits to heart rate, recovery time, lactic acid build up and vO2Max. I can't speak to the latter two, but I did experience positive effects on heart rate and recovery time of roughly 10-15 bpm at max and 5-10bpm at recovery. I didn't have a pen and paper handy, but I check heartrate and recovery time whenever I skate whether its on long track clap blades or hockey blades.

If you have not tried them, then is it possible you have got some sort of personal issue about them?

Please don't freak out. I'm asking in earnest. I'd like to understand how you know they don't work. I'm not asking about the validity of the company claims. Those may indeed be exagerated. I just want to know why they don't work for you.

[Rustyhole 1]

Put the NBH logo on thermablades and sales double.

Good point, marketing $$ sells product. If NBH/Rbk/Easton came out with a competing product and placed their $$ behind it, it'd sell. Not to mention people stick to brands they know. Why else do (almost) all LHS's cary the above brands and then pick one or two of the smaller guys to 'round out' their offerings? Because they sell. Science aside, if NBH came out with their version, lots of people would gain exposure to it just by the number of shops that carry NBH stuff. Even if they didn't switch.

Note: CCM doing something this with their new skate and t'blades. Replaceable runners.

Note2: a few years from now, could you see a $1200 [CAN$] Bauer Vapor 50 or Supreme200 with TB's instead of TUUK?

[Hipster 5]

Just because I don't believe in the merits of a product, I shouldn't discount it? Why the hell not?

And thanks for helping me prove my point about the vast majority of the population needing little or no evidence to quickly buy into something that seems like a good idea.

Well, it depends on what you consider evidence. You've got a 20 something former college player who HAS tried them and says they felt smoother and tighter in the turns.

Then you've got a few other guys who have not tied the product, and have unknown levels of expertise in skating. They say that they don't work and the science is all BS or exageration.

I'm a 40 something former college player with 39 years of skating behind me. and I can still skate a 42.5 in the 500m on speedskates. I say they felt smoother and made my turns tighter. I also say I had a lower BPM at max and recovery after an hour of heavy skating.

Let me know when you have some proof that there's no benefit. I'd love to see it.

Ironically, placebo effect and opinion bias both require experiential data.

My guess is that personal opinion is likely to be a far better indicator of potential value if you ask the right people.

I saw a lot of "scientific" ads for Taylor Made Drivers. I bought a Titleist because it worked better for me. My partner swears by his Taylor Made.

The dentist down the hall rocks custom Japanese Honma's and putts with a Limited Edition Bettinardi 38 special......and he still sucks.

You just have to know where to get the right advice that's applicable to you, dude.

[Wolfpack_1986 154]

I would respectfully say that you are not right. Melting water under the blade does decrease friction. a wider blade does not decrease friction. The company says there are physiological benefits to heart rate, recovery time, lactic acid build up and vO2Max. I can't speak to the latter two, but I did experience positive effects on heart rate and recovery time of roughly 10-15 bpm at max and 5-10bpm at recovery. I didn't have a pen and paper handy, but I check heartrate and recovery time whenever I skate whether its on long track clap blades or hockey blades.

If you have not tried them, then is it possible you have got some sort of personal issue about them?

Please don't freak out. I'm asking in earnest. I'd like to understand how you know they don't work. I'm not asking about the validity of the company claims. Those may indeed be exagerated. I just want to know why they don't work for you.

please see my last post in this thread regarding significance.

http://www.modsquadhockey.com/forums/index...st&p=517188

re: the wider blade reducing friction... thats correct it does not change the coefficient of friction, but it does explain the changes in hollow and differing performance. A 2.3mm blade performs differently than a 2.0mm blade. only like blades should be compared.

As for why I havent skated on them, they dont have them in stock for one. and two, I dont want to drop $400 on an experiment. JR and I have discussed the possibility of me doing some testing with a pair to acquire data that will put some sort of objective look on them. As a scientist, regardless of what my results are, I'm duty bound to report them regardless.

If you look at provided data from thermablades, it's either irrelevant, or there's omitted data. That's like say the erased portions of the Nixon tapes... something funny happened and they're not fessing up with it, yet trying to maintain the illusion of being scientific about it. That's my personal issue. It besmirches the name of science, when data are skewed, misrepresented, or omitted. Something I will not stand for. If i do get my testing done, I'll truthfully share my findings and the raw data for analysis. If it confirms their claims, well, my preliminary analysis would be wrong, but that wont change my stance on their unethical practices.

does this make sense yet? I've been beating a dead horse, and you still don't seem to get my stance. I honestly dont know how to make this any clearer... cliff's notes:

Science side

-conceptually good

-statistically insignificant

Ethics/personal side

-omission of data

-attempting to pass off irrelevant data as being relevant

-improper practices of reporting data

-drawing impractical conclusions based upon this.

[DarkStar50 679]

puck_it

A few ?(just for research)

What size Thermablade are you looking for?

What boot/holder do you skate on now?

How long have you been skating/playing hockey?

What level do you play at now?

How many times a week do you skate/play hockey?

Did you play travel hockey?

What is your height/weight?

What is your age?

I think we have a healthy discussion going on here. We have a good idea of the guys using Thermablades what their background is for hockey. I just wanted to know your background as well.

Thanks.

[Law Goalie 147]

Sorry. I may have been semantically sloppy. What I meant to say was, simply, that any product or invention is what it is. It will perform as such, no matter what anyone says about it, or how many "New! Improved!" stickers are on its packaging. Whether it's Thermablades, T'blades, or an antibacterial toothpaste, the advertised idea of the product and the product itself are never the same thing.

And yes, in this case, I think the chief purported advantage is as dubious as doping Colgate with tricoslan.

The chief purported advantage being what? I ask because there are several purported advantages. In my opinion, The most important advantage to ME is neither "difference making" increases in speed or agility. Its the physiological benefit after about an hour. I didn't wear a VO2max harness, but I felt what I felt. I skate with the same guys every week for the past 10 years, so that was a constant.I didn't do anything different diet-wise.

I just do not believe it was my imagination.

Chiefly, the heating; that is, the heating is the claimed advantage, which causes their listing of supposed benefits.

I'm not trying to say that you hallucinated the benefits you felt. Given the calibre of skater you are and the frequency with which you try new and varied equipment, I'd say you're in a unique position to comment. I don't, for example, need to wait for peer review before enjoying a new essay by Harold Bloom. I know he's going to have interesting, significant things to say, as do you.

I had the unusual experience of having skate on two widths of runners on the same skate at the same hollow and profile on the same ice within a few days of each other. I had the RBK 9K goalie blades (3.4mm) first, then had to switch to the 5K steel (4mm). There was a significant increase in the power of my edge-work on the wider blade. However, I also found the thinner blade slightly more tiring, despite the lower weight and effectively shallower radius compared with the thicker steel. This is, I know, completely subjective. The best analogy I can give is that the wider blade felt more stable, and the thinner blade felt like I was constantly a little more precarious than I ought to have been, and was constantly making little 'corrections' I didn't have to with the wider blade. I had been using the thin blades for two months, so it wasn't a question of used/unused to.

Basically, I have no problem whatsoever with you (in particular) claiming benefits with TB; nor really with anyone else. What I find unwarranted is the attribution of those benefits to the heating elements, which are, of course, the chief reasons for their marketing and the price-point. If all TB had said was, 'Hey, try a thicker blade of Perfecta-esque steel and a really nice holder,' fair play to them. I'm sure lots of guys have wanted to try a thicker blade, if only as an experiment, and many still have fond memories of that steel. Maybe the quality and finish of the steel is enhancing the glide; maybe the holder is changing your balance just enough to even out your weight across the blade. Both are tangible, meaningful benefits; neither can be necessarily given to the presence of circuitry in the holder at this point.

[Wolfpack_1986 154]

puck_it

We have a good idea of the guys using Thermablades what their background is for hockey. I just wanted to know your background as well.

Thanks.

Well, the background you requested isnt quite pertinent to my approach. I dont intend to test them by skating on them, as I dont feel I'm quite qualified for that... even though I'm quite picky and can feel the slightest defect in my blades (sharpening jobs, being bent, etc). I don't have the experience there.

the pertinent info: I'm a physicist, am a co-author on several papers, talks, posters, and am quite good at pointing out experimental flaws and biases in experiments.

If I get my hands on a pair to test and the like, (and it hinges on if i can arrange it all), I intend to provide data from controlled experimentation.

[colt45 0]

Put the NBH logo on thermablades and sales double.

didnt the guy propose his idea to NBH and other companies who turned him down?

altho, big companies like that buying thermablades seems like it might be beneficial.

correct me if im wrong here, but since ThermaBlade isnt a big company, if say NBH bought them out, wouldnt they be able to mass produce TB's @ a lower price and therefore significantly lower the price to us for TB's?

i've heard this theory before and i could be 100% completely wrong, but it seems (common sense wise) that big companies can have lower prices than a smaller Mom & Pop shop.

[yorkualum 0]

Put the NBH logo on thermablades and sales double.

Good point, marketing $$ sells product. If NBH/Rbk/Easton came out with a competing product and placed their $$ behind it, it'd sell. Not to mention people stick to brands they know. Why else do (almost) all LHS's cary the above brands and then pick one or two of the smaller guys to 'round out' their offerings? Because they sell. Science aside, if NBH came out with their version, lots of people would gain exposure to it just by the number of shops that carry NBH stuff. Even if they didn't switch.

Note: CCM doing something this with their new skate and t'blades. Replaceable runners.

Note2: a few years from now, could you see a $1200 [CAN$] Bauer Vapor 50 or Supreme200 with TB's instead of TUUK?

I have it on pretty good authority that Bauer has been sniffing around these for a while now. I'm certain that there will be a high end, top dog, Bauer skate with these blades on it in the next couple of years.

And don't kid yourself. OPS didn't take off until a bunch of NHLer's started using them at the end of the 2000 (maybe 2001?) season. The first Synergy's sat on the retailer's shelf with a $279 price tag. All of a sudden, without a clue as to whether or not it was better or not for them, a bunch of players started buying them because they saw the boys on TV using them.

My point is, if you see some NHLer's wearing these in the near future, they'll take off. Whether or not they work for everybody (anybody!!) or not, it doesn't really matter- players will buy what they think will give them an advantage. And like a new and improved golf driver or toothpaste, the 'newness' and the perceived benefit over the existing products on the market are what make people buy them.

[Chadd 916]

I have it on pretty good authority that Bauer has been sniffing around these for a while now. I'm certain that there will be a high end, top dog, Bauer skate with these blades on it in the next couple of years.

And don't kid yourself. OPS didn't take off until a bunch of NHLer's started using them at the end of the 2000 (maybe 2001?) season. The first Synergy's sat on the retailer's shelf with a $279 price tag. All of a sudden, without a clue as to whether or not it was better or not for them, a bunch of players started buying them because they saw the boys on TV using them.

My point is, if you see some NHLer's wearing these in the near future, they'll take off. Whether or not they work for everybody (anybody!!) or not, it doesn't really matter- players will buy what they think will give them an advantage. And like a new and improved golf driver or toothpaste, the 'newness' and the perceived benefit over the existing products on the market are what make people buy them.

Funny considering what we've heard from people some at Bauer.

I remember when the Synergy first came out, we couldn't figure out why anyone would buy a T-Flex that wouldn't let you change blades. As you mentioned though, people are like lemmings. That said, you're going to have a hard time recognizing thermablades in action at the NHL level. Rarely do they show a closeup of skates and even more rarely are the guys standing still long enough for them to be recognized.

[yorkualum 0]

As for why I havent skated on them, they dont have them in stock for one. and two, I dont want to drop $400 on an experiment. JR and I have discussed the possibility of me doing some testing with a pair to acquire data that will put some sort of objective look on them. As a scientist, regardless of what my results are, I'm duty bound to report them regardless.

That's the problem. Maybe we need more input from actual hockey players and less from the scientists who feel duty bound to find every minisule scientific whole in their marketing.

Puck It, it sounds like you are smarter than most people I know, but it seems joyless to simply find the negatives in all that is new.

If some of their scientific findings are more propoganda than fact, they wouldn't be the first company to attempt to falsely market their product in order to sell it (although as a complete non scientist, I don't think or care if that's the case). For the love of God, they're trying to sell a heated blade to a bunch of hockey players..... NOT the second coming of penicillin.

[JCYC5 0]

And don't kid yourself. OPS didn't take off until a bunch of NHLer's started using them at the end of the 2000 (maybe 2001?) season. The first Synergy's sat on the retailer's shelf with a $279 price tag. All of a sudden, without a clue as to whether or not it was better or not for them, a bunch of players started buying them because they saw the boys on TV using them.

But a bright yellow stick is much easier to spot for your average player sitting at home watching the game than a specifically shaped holder that is white alongside all the Tuuks out there...

[yorkualum 0]

I have it on pretty good authority that Bauer has been sniffing around these for a while now. I'm certain that there will be a high end, top dog, Bauer skate with these blades on it in the next couple of years.

And don't kid yourself. OPS didn't take off until a bunch of NHLer's started using them at the end of the 2000 (maybe 2001?) season. The first Synergy's sat on the retailer's shelf with a $279 price tag. All of a sudden, without a clue as to whether or not it was better or not for them, a bunch of players started buying them because they saw the boys on TV using them.

My point is, if you see some NHLer's wearing these in the near future, they'll take off. Whether or not they work for everybody (anybody!!) or not, it doesn't really matter- players will buy what they think will give them an advantage. And like a new and improved golf driver or toothpaste, the 'newness' and the perceived benefit over the existing products on the market are what make people buy them.

Funny considering what we've heard from people some at Bauer.

I remember when the Synergy first came out, we couldn't figure out why anyone would buy a T-Flex that wouldn't let you change blades. As you mentioned though, people are like lemmings. That said, you're going to have a hard time recognizing thermablades in action at the NHL level. Rarely do they show a closeup of skates and even more rarely are the guys standing still long enough for them to be recognized.

That's a good point. But if these guys are smart, they can get it out there on the marketplace somehow. And I'm sure the commentators and hockey insiders would talk about them on air for sure.

Everybody used to know that 95% of NHLer's wore JOFA protective even though you couldn't see shins, shoulder or elbow pads on TV very often either. People knew because JOFA (Hockey Company) made sure every retailer knew it.

[Chadd 916]

That's a good point. But if these guys are smart, they can get it out there on the marketplace somehow. And I'm sure the commentators and hockey insiders would talk about them on air for sure.

Everybody used to know that 95% of NHLer's wore JOFA protective even though you couldn't see shins, shoulder or elbow pads on TV very often either. People knew because JOFA (Hockey Company) made sure every retailer knew it.

As I've said several times TB has done a fantastic job of marketing, there was a two month period where everyone was talking about them. It may have been a little early though as the product wasn't available at retail during that marketing blitz and there is usually a limited amount of time the media will run with a "new" story.

There's also a huge difference between 95% of all NHL players and "we have half a dozen guys who use our stuff".

[DarkStar50 679]

I have it on pretty good authority that Bauer has been sniffing around these for a while now. I'm certain that there will be a high end, top dog, Bauer skate with these blades on it in the next couple of years.

And don't kid yourself. OPS didn't take off until a bunch of NHLer's started using them at the end of the 2000 (maybe 2001?) season. The first Synergy's sat on the retailer's shelf with a $279 price tag. All of a sudden, without a clue as to whether or not it was better or not for them, a bunch of players started buying them because they saw the boys on TV using them.

My point is, if you see some NHLer's wearing these in the near future, they'll take off. Whether or not they work for everybody (anybody!!) or not, it doesn't really matter- players will buy what they think will give them an advantage. And like a new and improved golf driver or toothpaste, the 'newness' and the perceived benefit over the existing products on the market are what make people buy them.

Funny considering what we've heard from people some at Bauer.

I remember when the Synergy first came out, we couldn't figure out why anyone would buy a T-Flex that wouldn't let you change blades. As you mentioned though, people are like lemmings. That said, you're going to have a hard time recognizing thermablades in action at the NHL level. Rarely do they show a closeup of skates and even more rarely are the guys standing still long enough for them to be recognized.

Gear whores on MSH stare at Getty Images all day long to find out if Iginla tapes his stick from heel-to-toe or toe-to-heel. People who want to know will find out and then tell other people. That is what locker rooms are for.

puck_it,

What size holder are you looking for to skate on?

Whether or not you feel qualified to take them for a test drive, maybe we could help you get the opportunity to find out for yourself.

[Hipster 5]

First I'd like to say the quality of the discussion here is quite good, which is nice and will probably lead to the truth which is usually somewhere in the middle.

My guess is that TB will not take the industry by storm or anything close to it.

They do have only a rudimentary collection of data, and that data doesn't look like its been done outside the without any regard to the companies marketing needs. Now, that may be a function of ethics, but it could easily be a function of financial wherewithal. They don't have enough money to test these things in all the conceivable ways it would take to really get down to the nitty gritty for evry type of skater they want to sell to.

My honest opinion is that if ( and I mean IF) there is a provable advantage, the advantage may be in an area that limits their market. Just as likely is that a provable advantage will not be a static, quantifiable number or percentage because the vast array of potential end users possess another set of variables they can't control or afford to simulate.

It would be very interesting to see independent research. My guess is they provide little advantage in top speed, if any. They may provide a slight advantage in turn radius and handling in turns. The value of that benefit depends on the end user and is probably slight except for paid professionals or amateurs currently playing elite levels just below professional.

If there is a natural market niche for these, it would most likely depend on reliably proven benefits of a slight advantage in friction as it relates to physiological states. A reduction in friction may have a completely insignificant effect on speed, but its quite possible that over long skating periods like 45 minutes to an hour or more, it could add up to a statistically significant benefit to the energy needed for equal amounts of work.....but maybe not for many of their desired market. Maybe only for a much smaller group who has already done all they can do through kinesthetics to skate efficiently.

That difference may be of no consequence whatsoever to a 20 something with lungs like a quarterhorse, but depending upon the benefit, it might make a huge difference to someone.

I will wait to see what real data is put forth. My position is that they do feel different from the start, but I admit that may be the steel or the pitch or whatever. What I'm most interested in is why did I feel like I had more gas in the tank than normal? I skate with the same crew for the past 10 years. We all know each others moves and capabilities. Its anecdotal, but I felt better than usual at the end of the night and people who didn't know I was wearing different blades did comment on it. That might be a lot of things besides the blades, I can admit that....but if it is the blades, then they need to rethink their marketing. The guys who will pay the most for these would be experienced skaters past their prime and wary of the health issues from trying to skate at too high a level of exertion.

One of the guys in our group is a 44 yr old. Cat I cyclist and former Div II captain in hockey. He's still got jets and a large gas tank. His bodyfat is single digits. Last year, he went home after a good hard skate and had to call 911 from the roadside. He had a electrical pace issue with his heart, damn near died. When I'm on the bench and my heart is pounding hard enough to move my jersey, I think about that, as do a lot of our guys. That's you Thermablade market right there. If the benefit is provable, I'd pay 10 times what they are now to enjoy hockey the way I want without risking too much.

However, if that's their only significant real benefit; middle age weekend warriors trying to hang on to their prime too long, then I better buy 3 pairs because they'll be gone next year.

[Chadd 916]

However, if that's their only significant real benefit; middle age weekend warriors trying to hang on to their prime too long, then I better buy 3 pairs because they'll be gone next year.

I think you are in the right neighborhood. From what I've been able to find and read on the subject it would appear that the worse you are, the more you will benefit. Beer league adults and house league kids would most likely benefit the most from TB. Unfortunately for TB, that isn't the demographic that will spend $400 a pop for their product.

[Hipster 5]

However, if that's their only significant real benefit; middle age weekend warriors trying to hang on to their prime too long, then I better buy 3 pairs because they'll be gone next year.

I think you are in the right neighborhood. From what I've been able to find and read on the subject it would appear that the worse you are, the more you will benefit. Beer league adults and house league kids would most likely benefit the most from TB. Unfortunately for TB, that isn't the demographic that will spend $400 a pop for their product.

The other problem is that the perception of any benefit might not be enough. As an example, the hot cinnamon roles they sell at the mall cafeteria, fresh out of the oven will sell themselves because the benefit is so evident in their smell. You don't have to even eat one to know they're good. Dental floss, on the other hand, has equally tangible, albeit less exciting benefits, but you don't see any dental floss kiosks at the mall cafeteria.

I accidentally left one of my TB blades "off" during a practice, and frankly I didn't know until I took them off. That's not enough immediate benefit for such a discretionary item to be successful in the mass market.

We'll see

In the meantime, I'm working on my Frankenstein skate project. Pro Tacks with Genuine "hair-on" steerhide quarterpanels. Its tough to find small swatches of the stuff with good, usable 2-color hair patterns. I know, I know, too much time on my hands.

[Rustyhole 1]

- quote paraphrased -

Pro Tacks with Genuine "hair-on" steerhide quarterpanels. I know, I know, too much time on my hands.

WTF... gotta post pics when done!

[chk hrd 164]

However, if that's their only significant real benefit; middle age weekend warriors trying to hang on to their prime too long, then I better buy 3 pairs because they'll be gone next year.

I think you are in the right neighborhood. From what I've been able to find and read on the subject it would appear that the worse you are, the more you will benefit. Beer league adults and house league kids would most likely benefit the most from TB. Unfortunately for TB, that isn't the demographic that will spend $400 a pop for their product.

That might be the perfect demographic. How many squids have you seen that can barely standup on the ice but have the top of the line gear head to toe. Alot of parents will buy thier kids anything because (of course) they are the next Great One and must have it. Then there is the beer leaguer who has to have the latest and greatest status symbol. The only thing that will help these people to become better skaters is good lessons, not a heated blade that may or may not work.

[Rustyhole 1]

Then there is the beer leaguer who has to have the latest and greatest status symbol. The only thing that will help these people to become better skaters is good lessons, not a heated blade that may or may not work.

the parents and/or beer leaguer didn't listen then and won't listen now

the beer leaguers say they don't need lessons 'cause they just play 'for fun' and cry when they snap their precious S17 on day two

just wait until someone has broken TB holders!! :o

[Hipster 5]

Then there is the beer leaguer who has to have the latest and greatest status symbol. The only thing that will help these people to become better skaters is good lessons, not a heated blade that may or may not work.

the parents and/or beer leaguer didn't listen then and won't listen now

the beer leaguers say they don't need lessons 'cause they just play 'for fun' and cry when they snap their precious S17 on day two

just wait until someone has broken TB holders!! :o

True story, we had a kid tryout for squirts two years ago whose well to do Mother was more interested in the social connections with the other Parents than the development of her kid. The other Country club kids were mostly on the "B" team and her kid made "C". Since the goalies were in short supply that year, she drove 5 minutes to the local LHS and bought the kid a whole new set of goalie equipment just to get him on the "B" team. The kid wanted to play out. Unbelievable.

[Chadd 916]

However, if that's their only significant real benefit; middle age weekend warriors trying to hang on to their prime too long, then I better buy 3 pairs because they'll be gone next year.

I think you are in the right neighborhood. From what I've been able to find and read on the subject it would appear that the worse you are, the more you will benefit. Beer league adults and house league kids would most likely benefit the most from TB. Unfortunately for TB, that isn't the demographic that will spend $400 a pop for their product.

That might be the perfect demographic. How many squids have you seen that can barely standup on the ice but have the top of the line gear head to toe. Alot of parents will buy thier kids anything because (of course) they are the next Great One and must have it. Then there is the beer leaguer who has to have the latest and greatest status symbol. The only thing that will help these people to become better skaters is good lessons, not a heated blade that may or may not work.

The percentage of those groups that shell out for big ticket items is far, far below the percentage on the "elite" teams in our area. You may have one or two of those guys in an entire house league or in a beer league of 40+ teams. Meanwhile an elite midget team will have 10-12 kids with the latest and greatest gear because they "need" pro level gear to be able to compete. And if mom and dad is paying $5k a year to be on a AAA team, what's another few hundred for a stick/skates/TBs?

[Wolfpack_1986 154]

puck_it,

What size holder are you looking for to skate on?

Whether or not you feel qualified to take them for a test drive, maybe we could help you get the opportunity to find out for yourself.

255's I've got a small foot. Thought, dont worry about it, I dont really have a pair of skates I'd be willing to test them on. I'm not going to mess with my vectors, and after I had ankle surgery my tacks would simply be too painful to wear. not to mention they're pretty broken down. Thank you for the offer, though.