Rink operation inquiries...

[Theo 1]

Just a few random questions I have. I know there are probably no concrete answers, so educated guesses would be much appreciated.

Assuming one is in the NE area, and they buy a descent piece of flat land which can fit a rink. They get all necessary permits, etc. They want to build a non-commercial rink (housed) so it can be used in the winter or Summer- How much are you talking about for a project like this? No bells and whistles, mind you. Just 1 rink, boards, benches, glass, of course the AC's and everything needed for the ice, AC/s for the air, rubber floor mats, and quality foundation and structure needed to keep the place insulated.

Assuming this is done, what would be the yearly costs to keep the ice in working condition as well as the air temperature in the building cool. (I guess in the Summer you would see higher prices and the winter lower, but once again any estimates is just what I am curious about.

Thanks

[Simonp27 0]

There is some useful info here with some typical costs etc:

http://customicerinks.com/

[Gummer12 134]

When my rink was built in 97, I believe the final total was somewhere around 2.7 Million. And that already had the land and Zamboni room in place. (And we still have to dump outside) It was a conversion from an outdoor to an indoor. So basically it's a steel pole building. No locker rooms were built, cuz they just used the existing basketball rooms in the gym the rink became attached to. (Although we renovated them slightly a couple years back) The rubber flooring was bought Used from Yost arena and still didn't cover the entire lobby. This was a complete Lowest Bidder job, and in areas it shows. But to the casual visitor it looks pretty good. My suggestions in building a new rink, is make sure the Lobby looks great, and Locker Rooms are Big, and the Zamboni room/area has a lot of room, and an indoor dumping pit. Rental Skates are also something that you don't want to skimp on. Basically it boils down to, there is NO Cheap component in an Ice Arena. And Cheapest Bidder is not the way to go, you'll end up paying for it tenfold in the end. Expandability is the idea I wish they would have thought of when designing this place. But it's homely, and home to the Best ice in the state, so at least we have That going for us.. which is nice.

[UMWhockey 0]

Lot of factors go into it. I have seen rinks go up after land costs anywhere from $750,000 very low end to upwards of $6 mil for a single sheet. As far as yearly costs go, I don't know how much of help I could be. It has been 3 years since I last ran a rink and it was in Va, so our costs were a little higher because of the heat and humidity. It worked out, if I remember, to be about $300 per hour during the hours the rink was open to cover everything. that included our rent on the land and was the average for the year, so in the winter it wasn't as expensive due to cooler temperatures.

After you do your research and come up with a final price, add a couple hundred thousand to that total so that way your working number is a little higher and allows you some more working capital. If you build it right the first time, you will save yourself a TON of money in the long run.

[Theo 1]

Thanks for the advice. Something I just wanted an idea of. I am a college student, so no, it is not something I could even think about doing. Sorry, I should have noted that.

Simon- Some great prices and info in that link- Thanks

Wex- Pretty awesome that you accomplished that and congrats on the best ice! Great suggestions. I am sure as you say- Building it right the first time does save and is worth it in the long run.

UMW- Thanks for the range in prices. Definitely seems realistic. I imagine if the rink was for non-commercial use the costs would be much lower (IE- a group of a few buyers ultimately using it just with friends and family, etc). Of course, then you have no revenue, so the buyers better be rich and make good money to sustain the rink

[wickedwrister 0]

The rink where I live has 2 sheets. The head guy has told me their utility bill is around $12,000 a month.

[lb33knight 0]

The rink where I live has 2 sheets. The head guy has told me their utility bill is around $12,000 a month.

At my rink, in the south, our bill is $30,000+ for two pads. Climate has a lot to do with it.

[Spreedizzle 1]

Just a few random questions I have. I know there are probably no concrete answers, so educated guesses would be much appreciated.

Assuming one is in the NE area, and they buy a descent piece of flat land which can fit a rink. They get all necessary permits, etc. They want to build a non-commercial rink (housed) so it can be used in the winter or Summer- How much are you talking about for a project like this? No bells and whistles, mind you. Just 1 rink, boards, benches, glass, of course the AC's and everything needed for the ice, AC/s for the air, rubber floor mats, and quality foundation and structure needed to keep the place insulated.

Assuming this is done, what would be the yearly costs to keep the ice in working condition as well as the air temperature in the building cool. (I guess in the Summer you would see higher prices and the winter lower, but once again any estimates is just what I am curious about.

Thanks

I'm the Commissioner on the Asheville Hockey League and we have been fundraising in an attempt to put down a full rink the area here to help promote the growth of our inline and ice programs (we get 11 weeks of ice in the winter when the Civic center drops ice). Our research for our demands have come to about $2.7 million. That is for a full sized sheet of ice, refrigeration equipment, 2 small locker rooms with showers, a concession stand and rental skates. We have tried to go as bare bones as possible and build the program and amenities of the facility as we grow, so your pricing may vary based on what features you are looking for.

[Gummer12 134]

2 Locker Rooms ain't gonna cut it.. We have 4 even That isn't enough. ESP if you have Women and SNOTTY Refs demanding their own rooms.

[Chadd 916]

2 Locker Rooms ain't gonna cut it.. We have 4 even That isn't enough. ESP if you have Women and SNOTTY Refs demanding their own rooms.

There's no reason not to have rooms for women and officials. The additional cost is negligible and it prevents a number of problems down the line.

[Gummer12 134]

I Agree.. it needs to be included in any new rink construction. Like I said, ours was more of a Retrofit job, and just used Current locker rooms. It was originally going to be a 3 Phase project, with more locker rooms built off the side behind the benches in phase two, but as you guessed, never got past phase 1. I love County Commissioners.

[Chadd 916]

I Agree.. it needs to be included in any new rink construction. Like I said, ours was more of a Retrofit job, and just used Current locker rooms. It was originally going to be a 3 Phase project, with more locker rooms built off the side behind the benches in phase two, but as you guessed, never got past phase 1. I love County Commissioners.

Things like that are why you try to get as much done as possible during the initial construction. Once it's built, you have it. Future plans have a habit of never coming to fruition.

[Gummer12 134]

Wondering if anyone would know the definite answer to this... I've been hearing that USA Hockey is moving the Goal and Blue Lines for next season. Any truth that? What'll happen if a rink doesn't move the lines? Also is there any change to the crease, and is there any thing wrong with using the new NHL style crease? Word is if we don't move our lines this summer, we won't be able to hold any district playoffs for Any level.

So in follow up to that, has anyone that works in a rink moved their lines yet? Can you offer any advice or tips/tricks on what/what not to do? Any reasonable figure on cost outside of man hours? Just trying to figure out what we need to be prepared for this summer.

[UMWhockey 0]

I am sure there will be a time frame in which the lines will need to be moved by. I doubt it will be by next season though. They will most likely give rinks 2-3 years unless you are hosting any USA Hockey District or National tournament. Easiest way to do it would be during your next ice meltdown. Depending on your board set-up it should be a one day thing to move or repaint the lines on the boards, and they whatever your normal ice paint schedule it.

[Gummer12 134]

The lines on the boards are made of regular dasher material. So painting is out of the question. Just have to remove, remeasure, and replace. The hard part is gonna be the screws, since they've been set it place for 11 years, they're probably gonna be one hell of a B to get out.

[RecLeagueHero 0]

Based on what another rink the area is doing, a few friends of mine and I have been kicking around the idea of opening a rink that caters specifically to adult hockey. Be able to offer weekday ice times for league games that are ealier than 11:45 PM, have ice available for teams that want to do after work practices, and be able to provide 1 or 2 after work drop in games a week. We were looking at leasing a building that contained a Home Depot. The ceiling height is perfect, there's more than enough space for the sheet, a lobby, four locker rooms, two small rooms (a women's only changing and a ref's room), and a pro-shop. If you're willing to sign extended leases the owners of space like this are typically very willing to work with you in remodeling the building to suit your needs. Especially when you have closed Home Depots, Wal-Marts, and other big box stores whose buildings are too large to be ideal for most other businesses. Not having to come up with money for land and new construction cuts the start up costs significantly, not to mention saving the headache of getting the ass load of permits new construction typically requires. With the remodeling concessions we're looking at an opening cost of a little under $2.5 million.

[JoeyJ0506 192]

RecLeague, that sounds like an amazing idea. If there is enough interest in your area for an adult hockey specific rink I think it could really work out well. The only problem would be making what your rink offers so good that it will pull people away from other rinks that have already established themselves at those rinks. But, I think the prospect of practice and game times that aren't at ungodly hours of the night/morning will really appeal to a lot of guys. I know there are guys I've known growing up with who are working their first real jobs and starting their families that are forced to give up any type of consistent hockey simply because they cannot make the early/late times because of work and family obligations. One guy specifically thought out loud one night that, "someone should really think about allowing us to play at reasonable times... this 11:30pm stuff is a joke." Best of luck to you and your partners, I think, if done correctly, it could be a great business venture.

[Chadd 916]

I'm extremely skeptical that an adult hockey only rink would be viable, you can't keep a rink running if it's only busy six hours a day. You need to fill it as much as you can. Public skating is the single biggest profit center for every rink I've been around, especially once you figure in the concession sales. The concession sales alone usually make club or varsity hockey games far more profitable than adult league games. I wish you luck but I urge you to really go over the numbers and assume a near-worst case scenario.

[number21 3]

Johnny's Ice House in Chicago (http://www.johnnysicehouse.com/) is basically a hockey only place. They have several adult programs (leagues, clinics, etc.) and youth hockey and skating, and some youth figure I think.

You could contact them to see how they operate without open skates.

[RecLeagueHero 0]

By catering to adult hockey I do not mean adult hockey only. Reasonably adult league games can't start until 6:30 or so, have no problem opening the sheet up to youth programs struggling to find ice to meet USHA's practice to game ratio from after school until then. Would also be holding some youth games on Friday nights and Saturday mornings, when adult players typically don't want games. We'd also be providing some ice during the day to the local figure skating club and short track speed skating. However, we'd be providing some relief on the over crowded ice in the area and allow for adults to have more early games, an after work drop-in (none of the 6 other rinks in the area offer this during youth hockey seasons), and available ice for practices. The feasiblity study that was conducted shows little interest in concession stands, of the six local rinks only two are still operating a concession stand.

Equally, we're not trying to place our pro-shop in compeition with the area LHS. The retail focus is going to be accessories, mouth guards, tape, pucks, water bottles, laces, and so on. We'd also be carrying sticks, helmets, and gloves. The sorts of items you might break at a rink, or as the feasibility study indicates, are the items players are most likely to forget at home.

[Chadd 916]

I wish you luck but there six facilities within 45 minutes of me that are full of youth hockey, figure skating, adult leagues and public skating and most are still losing money. Despite this someone built a new rink here last year, and they're losing cash by the bucketful. Hopefully your market will turn out differently. For the shop, you are better off renting space to one of the existing stores in the market. It's consistent money and the players will get a better selection of gear. If you're concentrating on adult hockey, concessions don't make sense, but they are a huge profit center for youth and public events.

[ddpatc 0]

Here's a civic facility with most of the nessecities for all types of programs. A small land foot print, many energy efficientcies, as well as a few components you could leave out and all for the cost of 12.5 mil CAN. I would think operational costs are available if you contact the city.

http://www.whitby.ca/index.php?Q=162K01V01

[RecLeagueHero 0]

I wish you luck but there six facilities within 45 minutes of me that are full of youth hockey, figure skating, adult leagues and public skating and most are still losing money. Despite this someone built a new rink here last year, and they're losing cash by the bucketful. Hopefully your market will turn out differently. For the shop, you are better off renting space to one of the existing stores in the market. It's consistent money and the players will get a better selection of gear. If you're concentrating on adult hockey, concessions don't make sense, but they are a huge profit center for youth and public events.

Obviously the state of the economy right now has put this project on a touch and go basis. If things continue as they are I would imagine hockey will suffer on all levels and it would make no sense to enter the fray with fewer players. At earliest we'd have to see what numbers are like next fall and go from there. Renting out space for a pro-shop is definately a consideration, both Firstline and NW Pro run multiple pro shops in area rinks. Right now we're planning on going without concessions, there's a lot of competition in the local area with family sit down places and three sports bars within a 5-9 minute drive. Vending machines can offer everything from pop to hot coco and coffee. So the plan is to rent the space to a vendor for a fee and a cut of the income on the machines.