Tragedy

[KingPest19 0]

Statisticaly, the number of people killed by firearms is easily doubled by people killed in MVAs, yet no one is scrambling to ban cars.

That is because very few MVA's are determined to be premeditated murders, whereas too large a portion of deaths by handguns fall under that category.

If you notice its not those that actually go by gun control laws doing the killing its those that dont give a shit about them.

That's not accurate. I know the guns in at least one of the recent rampages were obtained legally. Numerous domestic violent acts have been committed by people who were qualified to own a gun.

Is the 'right to bear arms' really worth these kind of tragedies again, and again, and again? Regardless of your political stance on the issue, I don't think anyone with an ounce of common sense can deny that the gun culture in the United States is directly responsible for many many deaths per year in your country.

I wouldn't call us a gun culture, but it's obvious that we have too large a segment of society that has no business owning a gun, yet no legal way to keep them out of their hands

Im not saying that peopel who obtain them legally dont commit crimes. Just thats there is a significantly large portion of crimes committed by people who because of their past are forbidden by law from owning them. And when it comes to guns used in these crimes they are obtained illegaly.

[Monty22 821]

I wouldn't call us a gun culture, but it's obvious that we have too large a segment of society that has no business owning a gun, yet no legal way to keep them out of their hands

I live in CT. Hartford, our state's capital, currently has over 3000 outstanding felony warrents. The problem is the evil looking black rifle in my safe? No, it's lack of enforcement of exisiting laws. Like anything else, there will always be a segment of society that does not abide by certain laws.

There are 1000's of people who shouldn't be driving, yet there is no legal way to prevent them either.

[lawryde 0]

Firearms are inanamate objects, they are not inheritly good or evil.They are tools, nothing more, nothing less.

I don't agree with that either. Guns are machines designed to destroy and or kill. That is their only purpose. That's what they have been designed and refined to do. They kill animals or people or destroy property or targets. They are tools of destruction.

We're not talking about a builders square here like you claim them as being tools.

[Jason Harris 31]

I'm not saying that peopel who obtain them legally dont commit crimes. Just thats there is a significantly large portion of crimes committed by people who because of their past are forbidden by law from owning them. And when it comes to guns used in these crimes they are obtained illegaly.

That's leads to an interesting question, which has probably been answered somewhere. What percentage of crimes are committed with guns that have been legally obtained versus criminally so?

[Jason Harris 31]

There are 1000's of people who shouldn't be driving, yet there is no legal way to prevent them either.

I would guess that when all the miles that Americans drive are factored in, as well as all the guns that Americans own, the percentages of death/injury are probably higher among gun violence, although I suspect the number is low for both sides. However, if intent were thrown into the equation, it's obvious what wins in a landslide.

I'm not saying we have to take guns away from law abiding citizens, but it's obvious we have to find a means to keep them away from unstable people. One problem I've read is we're asking the guy who stands to make a profit on the sale -- perhaps a seller at a gun show -- to perform the background check on the spot. Disregarding that the seller is more concerned about paying for his booth, I believe the databases are addressing criminal background, not psychological.

[sdcopp 1]

I believe the databases are addressing criminal background, not psychological.

Other than a few flags in background profiles, you're correct. There are certain meds (psychotropic varieties) that will show up and not allow people who have ever been on them to purchase guns or serve in any armed forces. Aside from those flags, it's all criminal.

[mrusse01 0]

I'm not saying we have to take guns away from law abiding citizens...

No, that's were you are wrong. You SHOULD be taking guns away from law abiding citizens before they turn into non-law abiding citizens with guns.

The United States has over 3x the number of guns per capita than Canada does...and over 60x the number of handguns per capita. 60 TIMES!?!?

Your death rate (rate= per capita) from firearms is about 8x higher than Canada. Why? Our our socieities and cultures so different that a person in the USA is 8x more likely to be killed by a gun than a Canadian is? Or does it have something to do with the fact that you have so many people killing guns sitting around that you don't know what to do with them all.

It's like having a country that eats 60x more donuts per capita than another, and then looking around wondering why everyone is so fat. Get rid of guns, specifically the ones designed to kill people (i.e. handguns) and less people will be killed by guns. It's not rocket science.

[sdcopp 1]

I'm not saying we have to take guns away from law abiding citizens...

No, that's were you are wrong. You SHOULD be taking guns away from law abiding citizens before they turn into non-law abiding citizens with guns.

The United States has over 3x the number of guns per capita than Canada does...and over 60x the number of handguns per capita. 60 TIMES!?!?

Your death rate (rate= per capita) from firearms is about 8x higher than Canada. Why? Our our socieities and cultures so different that a person in the USA is 8x more likely to be killed by a gun than a Canadian is? Or does it have something to do with the fact that you have so many people killing guns sitting around that you don't know what to do with them all.

It's like having a country that eats 60x more donuts per capita than another, and then looking around wondering why everyone is so fat. Get rid of guns, specifically the ones designed to kill people (i.e. handguns) and less people will be killed by guns. It's not rocket science.

Gottlieb cites an article by Canada's National Post columnist David Frum where he revealed that "Canada's overall crime rate is now 50 percent higher than the crime rate in the United States.” Moreover, "Since the early 1990s, crime rates have dropped in 48 of the 50 states and 80 percent of American cities. Over that same period, crime rates have risen in six of the 10 Canadian provinces and in seven of Canada’s 10 biggest cities.”

He also cites the most recent complete data available from both countries that shows that in 2003, the violent crime rate in the United States was 475 per 100,000 people; while up north, there were 963 violent crimes per 100,000 people. The figure for sexual assault in Canada per 100,000 people was more than double that of the United States: 74 as opposed to 32.1; and the assault rate in Canada was also more than twice that of the states: 746 to America's 295 for the people.

Moreover, he cites research that showed the figure for sexual assault in Canada per 100,000 people was more than double that of the United States: 74 as opposed to 32.1; and the assault rate in Canada was more than twice that of the United States: 746 to America’s 295. Also, in 2005, Toronto had 78 murders; that’s a 28 percent increase in homicides since 1995.

"The situation hasn't improved for Canada; it has here,” he wrote.

"Moreover, this shift in crime rates between the two countries has occurred while dozens of U.S. states have adopted ‘right-to-carry’ and ‘shall-issue’ handgun laws. During the same period, Canada’s gun laws have gotten more restrictive, with the national gun registry being implemented,” he added.

"Since declaring war on guns under former Prime Minister Jean Chretien, Canada's Liberals have presided over the sharpest rise in violent crime in the nation’s history.”

Gottlieb wrote that "Frum put it best when he claimed, ‘Gun registration and gun bans ... do not work,’ adding later: ‘It is not guns from across the border that threaten Canadians. It is the weak and cynical policies of home-grown politicians, and especially the Chretien/Martin Liberals.’”

Martin and the Liberals are not the solution to violent crime in Canada, Gottlieb wrote. "They're the problem.”

Gottlieb concluded that "the disparity in crime rates says it all about how well gun registration works to stop crime, as opposed to actually carrying guns to deter criminals, and fighting back if necessary.”

http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/ic/200...24/150547.shtml

guess our law abiding citizens with guns ARE ok

[sdcopp 1]

and the dreaded double post. I think Canada has some things going right for it, and I think the US has some things going right. We could argue all day long about crime rates and who's is better or worse depending on who you want to believe on the numbers. The bottom line is Canada has 33+ million people, the US has 301+ million people. If eveything was even, all the US crime rates should be 10X what Canada's is. We have guns in citizens hands, and we aren't 10X across the board in crime.

We had the church shooter here in Colorado, yes with guns and all, and he was stopped by a gun wielding citizen. A violent end to be sure, but both the problem and the solution in this case.

[lawryde 0]

We had the church shooter here in Colorado, yes with guns and all, and he was stopped by a gun wielding citizen.

I'm gonna have to call BS on you. It was a security guard that killed that kid.

[Chadd 916]

We had the church shooter here in Colorado, yes with guns and all, and he was stopped by a gun wielding citizen.

I'm gonna have to call BS on you. It was a security guard that killed that kid.

The one interview I saw on this whole mess said she was a volunteer security guard.

[sdcopp 1]

We had the church shooter here in Colorado, yes with guns and all, and he was stopped by a gun wielding citizen.

I'm gonna have to call BS on you. It was a security guard that killed that kid.

And I'll return your BS call since it was a volunteer security guard, and most security companies are not allowed to carry firearms. This one happened to be a retired/off duty cop (can't remember which), but a volunteer none the less. While every citizen has the right to bear arms, most security guards do not for their jobs due to the civil court liability.

[Oberon 0]

Ex-cop, she was fired from the Minneapolis police department.

[mrusse01 0]

and the dreaded double post. I think Canada has some things going right for it, and I think the US has some things going right. We could argue all day long about crime rates and who's is better or worse depending on who you want to believe on the numbers. The bottom line is Canada has 33+ million people, the US has 301+ million people. If eveything was even, all the US crime rates should be 10X what Canada's is. We have guns in citizens hands, and we aren't 10X across the board in crime.

We had the church shooter here in Colorado, yes with guns and all, and he was stopped by a gun wielding citizen. A violent end to be sure, but both the problem and the solution in this case.

I don't want to get into a stat quoting debate because those usually just get ridiculous, but yes you have 10x more population, but the stats I quoted are PER CAPITA. You are 8 times more likely to be killed by a gun in the USA than in Canada, that stat has nothing to do with size of the population. As well you have 60 times more hand guns per capita...so your population is about 10x as big, that means you roughly have 600x more handguns in the USA than we do in Canada.

Your statistics on violent crime are quite shocking, and I must say I find them difficult to believe at first glance, and frankly I'd have to look into it more before I responded further, but from a purely logic based line of reasoning I believe more guns = more gun deaths = more crime.

And sure, Toronto had 78 homicides in 2005....Chicago, a similar sized city, had 449. In Toronto the media was freaking out, I think they called it the 'year of the gun'...In Chicago everyone is slapping each other on the back because back in the early 1990s you'd have 900+ murders a year.

[Chadd 916]

and the dreaded double post. I think Canada has some things going right for it, and I think the US has some things going right. We could argue all day long about crime rates and who's is better or worse depending on who you want to believe on the numbers. The bottom line is Canada has 33+ million people, the US has 301+ million people. If eveything was even, all the US crime rates should be 10X what Canada's is. We have guns in citizens hands, and we aren't 10X across the board in crime.

We had the church shooter here in Colorado, yes with guns and all, and he was stopped by a gun wielding citizen. A violent end to be sure, but both the problem and the solution in this case.

I don't want to get into a stat quoting debate because those usually just get ridiculous, but yes you have 10x more population, but the stats I quoted are PER CAPITA. You are 8 times more likely to be killed by a gun in the USA than in Canada, that stat has nothing to do with size of the population. As well you have 60 times more hand guns per capita...so your population is about 10x as big, that means you roughly have 600x more handguns in the USA than we do in Canada.

Your statistics on violent crime are quite shocking, and I must say I find them difficult to believe at first glance, and frankly I'd have to look into it more before I responded further, but from a purely logic based line of reasoning I believe more guns = more gun deaths = more crime.

And sure, Toronto had 78 homicides in 2005....Chicago, a similar sized city, had 449. In Toronto the media was freaking out, I think they called it the 'year of the gun'...In Chicago everyone is slapping each other on the back because back in the early 1990s you'd have 900+ murders a year.

More guns may mean more deaths but it certainly doesn't mean more crime. US gun deaths are skewed by gangs and drugs. If we could find a way to address those social problems, the numbers would go down significantly. In Philly we had a recent spate of people killing cops. While those were gun crimes, it's not like these were the first crimes committed by the people who did it. It's also not likely that any additional gun law would have prevented them from doing it. If we can't stop the drugs from entering our country, what makes you think we could stop gun smugglers?

[sdcopp 1]

you're saying to prohibit guns though, which has proven the more restrictive something has become, the bigger a problem it becomes.

Prohibition in the 20's - didn't work and caused waves of violence

US drinking age much higher than Europe - significantly higher drunk driving deaths in the US

and the list goes on and on I'm sure. You cite a single US city and a single Canadian city. How many cities that size does Canada have compared to the US? It has shown that as a metropolitan area grows, so does it's crime rate. The lower population has a huge impact. Part of Americans freedom is tied to the responsibility of using the freedoms we are granted within reasonable limits. We have much harsher penalties for law breaking that Canada does. We have significantly more prisons, despite a lower % of population occupying those prisons. Canada has no 3 strikes rule. Canada has no "war on drugs" because the laws are more lenient. The sentences for crimes committed are far less severe than American courts dole out daily.

It is what it is. Until you have less restrictive gun laws, you don't know that it's the problem. Many European countries are still far more dangerous, and yet they have less freedoms in many of those countries. I have a gun in my home, and my life has been affected both for better and for worse by guns in the grand scheme of things. As I stated earlier, they can be a problem, but they've also shown to be a solution, albeit a violent solution.

I could get shot tomorrow for the paltry amount of cash in my wallet. I could get hit by a semi sliding on an icy road. I won't fight against a freedom I'm granted on a what if, particularly because where I live is not one of the gloom and doom hotspots you seem to think all decent sized American cities are. My local Sheriff grants concealed weapons permits on a "is there any reason I shouldn't" basis rather than a "I don't see a reason for this" It's my right. It's one of the few entitlements I get in this life. Until you live with that, you really can't objectively comment on it because you're comparing apples to oranges.

[chippa13 1844]

Banning firearms at this point is like closing the barn door after the horse escaped. The guns are already out there.

[sdcopp 1]

Banning firearms at this point is like closing the barn door after the horse escaped. The guns are already out there.

and as Chadd pointed out, tougher laws wouldn't prevent criminals from getting them. In a free trade capitalist society it's really hard to stop a product from getting in someone's hands if there's money to be made.

[mrusse01 0]

We have significantly more prisons, despite a lower % of population occupying those prisons.

Incorrect. As a percentage of total population, the United States has largest imprisoned population in the world, with 738 people per 100,000 serving time, awaiting trial or otherwise detained. By comparison Canada is at 103/100,000.

I have a gun in my home, and my life has been affected both for better and for worse by guns in the grand scheme of things. As I stated earlier, they can be a problem, but they've also shown to be a solution, albeit a violent solution

I agree...I just argue that on the whole, guns are a much bigger problem than they are a solution. I never really understood the American style argument that you all want to carry guns just because you don't want anyone telling you that you can't.

I'm going to go right out and say it, the 2nd Amendment is stupid. It's a relic of history that may have had significance at one time, but you know I really don't think the British are coming back to invade anytime soon, so you can drop it. Sure, I like my liberties and freedoms as much as the next guy, but if one of those liberties is allowing just about anyone to carry around a concealed hand gun designed for killing people, well I'm just as inclined to let that freedom get restricted a little bit.

Banning firearms at this point is like closing the barn door after the horse escaped. The guns are already out there.

sadly, I think you are probably right.

[Chadd 916]

I agree...I just argue that on the whole, guns are a much bigger problem than they are a solution. I never really understood the American style argument that you all want to carry guns just because you don't want anyone telling you that you can't.

I'm going to go right out and say it, the 2nd Amendment is stupid. It's a relic of history that may have had significance at one time, but you know I really don't think the British are coming back to invade anytime soon, so you can drop it. Sure, I like my liberties and freedoms as much as the next guy, but if one of those liberties is allowing just about anyone to carry around a concealed hand gun designed for killing people, well I'm just as inclined to let that freedom get restricted a little bit.

The second ammendment isn't there to protect us from an outside government, it is there to protect us from our own government. Considering the abuses of the current administration, it wouldn't surprise me if it was needed during my lifetime.

Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

Benjamin Franklin

[camhockey16 5]

[politics]

this sounds like alot of the Ron Paul stuff i have been hearing lately - although I do have alot of respect for him.

[/politics]

I agree...I just argue that on the whole, guns are a much bigger problem than they are a solution. I never really understood the American style argument that you all want to carry guns just because you don't want anyone telling you that you can't.

I'm going to go right out and say it, the 2nd Amendment is stupid. It's a relic of history that may have had significance at one time, but you know I really don't think the British are coming back to invade anytime soon, so you can drop it. Sure, I like my liberties and freedoms as much as the next guy, but if one of those liberties is allowing just about anyone to carry around a concealed hand gun designed for killing people, well I'm just as inclined to let that freedom get restricted a little bit.

The second ammendment isn't there to protect us from an outside government, it is there to protect us from our own government. Considering the abuses of the current administration, it wouldn't surprise me if it was needed during my lifetime.

Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

Benjamin Franklin

[Monty22 821]

"If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a deprivation of a constitutional privilege." - Abraham Lincoln

THought this was particularly relevent....

[KingPest19 0]

I'm not saying that peopel who obtain them legally dont commit crimes. Just thats there is a significantly large portion of crimes committed by people who because of their past are forbidden by law from owning them. And when it comes to guns used in these crimes they are obtained illegaly.

That's leads to an interesting question, which has probably been answered somewhere. What percentage of crimes are committed with guns that have been legally obtained versus criminally so?

That is a very good question Salming. Another question to be asked is how many of these guns were purchased "legally" by straw buyers knowing that is prohibited? Would that still constitute the gun being obtained illegaly? It gets messy in some areas as to legality.

I understand some people want guns totally abolished while others want certain weapons abolished while others want the freedom to own what ever kind of gun they want. My feelings on gun ownership is thats its better to have one and not need it than need it and not have it. Some doped up felon breaks in my house and threatens my life I know that if he gets within 25 feet of me with a weapon my chances of walking out alive are better than his. I hope that situation never arises as I value human life but if it comes down to defending my life Im going to do it.

[Jason Harris 31]

"If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a deprivation of a constitutional privilege." - Abraham Lincoln

THought this was particularly relevent....

I read a great quote by John Malkovich: "I think the death penalty is misnamed. Everybody's going to die, so we should call it the Early Death Penalty."

I understand all the rhetoric that our cultural and judicial systems are biased, but it doesn't change the fact that crimes are committed. And heinous crimes should be punished severely.

My feelings on gun ownership is thats its better to have one and not need it than need it and not have it. Some doped up felon breaks in my house and threatens my life I know that if he gets within 25 feet of me with a weapon my chances of walking out alive are better than his. I hope that situation never arises as I value human life but if it comes down to defending my life Im going to do it.

I agree, although I admit I'm basically anti-gun.

I've read there will one day be guns that can only be unlocked with the right fingerprint. When those are available, I would consider getting one for my night stand, yet hope it never sees the light. Until those are available, however, I won't take the chance that my children might discover a gun and try to play with it.

[KingPest19 0]

"If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a deprivation of a constitutional privilege." - Abraham Lincoln

THought this was particularly relevent....

I read a great quote by John Malkovich: "I think the death penalty is misnamed. Everybody's going to die, so we should call it the Early Death Penalty."

I understand all the rhetoric that our cultural and judicial systems are biased, but it doesn't change the fact that crimes are committed. And heinous crimes should be punished severely.

My feelings on gun ownership is thats its better to have one and not need it than need it and not have it. Some doped up felon breaks in my house and threatens my life I know that if he gets within 25 feet of me with a weapon my chances of walking out alive are better than his. I hope that situation never arises as I value human life but if it comes down to defending my life Im going to do it.

I agree, although I admit I'm basically anti-gun.

I've read there will one day be guns that can only be unlocked with the right fingerprint. When those are available, I would consider getting one for my night stand, yet hope it never sees the light. Until those are available, however, I won't take the chance that my children might discover a gun and try to play with it.

The technology is pretty much here for that. I can understand wiht the whole children thing. With me I dont really worry about it because my nephews arent strong enough to rack the slide and they both know guns arent to be played with. My friends that are law enforcement that have kids leave their guns in plain view because their kids know the dangers of them. When I have kids theyll know. Until then mine is kept high up and they are all off limits to my room. Alot of problems nowadays are some parents dont take the time to teach their kids the dangers of having firearms in the house. And thats a big cause when those types of incidents occur.