Some Thoughts on Skate Marketing

[GrafPro55 0]

I am on this forum to help people who want info. Share my knowledge. If you bring up a topic and I express an opinion, is that alright? Does it matter where I work? I could work at Bauer or CCM and I would still be opposed to a company selling a product on mostly marketing. If the price of skates goes up 100 bucks every year, I need to feel that in my stride. I skate better in 20 year old technology.

[epstud74 24]

I dont thing the Graf's skates are all that soft with the exception of the 707 but then again that skate isnt meant for your average player. A very innovative skate in its own right. The top notch players who tape their skates do it for a reason and not for stiffness either but to get the ankle wrap that is damn near impossible to get in a ultra stiff skate. (my own opinion) I would rather have a boot that is is stiff around the foot than the ankles. Look at the boots more technically proficient skaters wear. (speedskaters etc.) These are sports where a tenth of a second or less can make the difference.

They shouldn't be Puma-soft, either.

Regardless, I don't see Graf having much of a say on skate marketing since it's been going downhill for some time now. I think I'd pay more attention to a Bush exit strategy.

[GrafPro55 0]

I never said they are "resting on their laurels". Someone else said that. Read before you comment.

What are you saying down here, then?

The bottom line is, there are "product" companies and "marketing" companies. A perfect company would develop an outstanding product and then find a way to market it. Old Bauer was good at that. Old CCM as well. But the companies that bought them are leaning way harder to marketing only. "Who cares if the product isn't that great, if we stick it on a golden boy, it will sell".

For all the NBH-bashing you've been doing in your short time here, they've been the industry leader where pushing the proverbial envelope is concerned. Graf is playing the catch-up game game...and doing a rather mediocre job of it, at that.

I was saying that CCM and Bauer were doing fine. I don't hate Bauer or CCM. I hate that Nike buys Bauer, tries to make everyone think that they are making some crazy new technology and charging 800 dollars for it. Guess we won't have to worry about that anymore. Bye Nike. Stick to sweat shop shoes.

[mack 44]

I dont thing the Graf's skates are all that soft with the exception of the 707 but then again that skate isnt meant for your average player. A very innovative skate in its own right. The top notch players who tape their skates do it for a reason and not for stiffness either but to get the ankle wrap that is damn near impossible to get in a ultra stiff skate. (my own opinion) I would rather have a boot that is is stiff around the foot than the ankles. Look at the boots more technically proficient skaters wear. (speedskaters etc.) These are sports where a tenth of a second or less can make the difference.

They shouldn't be Puma-soft, either.

Regardless, I don't see Graf having much of a say on skate marketing since it's been going downhill for some time now. I think I'd pay more attention to a Bush exit strategy.

I know Graf's skates aren't as soft as the 707 just as much as I know all Bauer skates aren't as stiff as the One90.

[GrafPro55 0]

I'm not a rep. Thanks for telling me how the world works though.

[LkptTiger 1]

You have a problem with the prices of skates? Let's face it - there's a lot of R&D going on in the industry, which is inevitably going to drive the prices up a bit. Which begs the question: "Why is the (essentially unchanged) 7-series STILL selling at such a relatively high price...with that price about to jump even higher?"

There are representatives from just about every major company who, at the very least, actively peruse this forum on a regular basis...almost none of whom use their account to spread their "Anti-*whoever*" propaganda against other companies the way that you have.

It doesn't matter where you work...until you start taking shots at other companies. Then it just makes you suspect.

[JJStripes 1]

This sure has gotten interesting.

[epstud74 24]

The standard has already been set. Uber spendy skates are here to stay. If more people played hockey and bought skates then perhaps prices would drop because the manufacturers wouldnt have to charge so much to get their ROI. Graf has some geat ideas regarding their skates but seem to be going thru the same teething troubles that Bauer and NbH went thru with the Vapor line and the new Supremes. One could equate the 8090 with some of the 700 series Grafs. The 8090 is still an excellent skate and I wouldnt hesitate to purchase those before the Vapor XX or Vapor XXXs or even the One90. Some of you arent making sense. Complaining about Graf yet giving NBH a free pass regarding the newer Vapors (XXX) and the One90 and fit, durability and holder issues.

[GrafPro55 0]

I didn't like the idea of Nike buying Bauer before I worked at Graf. I guess what it boils down to is, you have 2 products. One is 50% marketing and 50% product. The other is 75% product and 25% marketing. Not talking Grafs or skates or anything. Just a neutral product. Which do you want? Would you be upset if you had been swayed by marketing into a lesser product? That is the only problem I have with a company using marketing to sell something as important to hockey as a skate.

[LkptTiger 1]

The standard has already been set. Uber spendy skates are here to stay. If more people played hockey and bought skates then perhaps prices would drop because the manufacturers wouldnt have to charge so much to get their ROI. Graf has some geat ideas regarding their skates but seem to be going thru the same teething troubles that Bauer and NbH went thru with the Vapor line and the new Supremes. One could equate the 8090 with some of the 700 series Grafs. The 8090 is still an excellent skate and I wouldnt hesitate to purchase those before the Vapor XX or Vapor XXXs or even the One90. Some of you arent making sense. Complaining about Graf yet giving NBH a free pass regarding the newer Vapors (XXX) and the One90 and fit, durability and holder issues.

I believe concessions have been made on both sides. Like I said, I'm snatching-up just about every new pair of size 7.0 D Vapor 10s I can get my hands on...and I've also said (maybe not in this particular topic - but I've mentioned it elsewhere) that the old Swiss-made 7XXs were very, very good skates.

Fact remains that NikeBauer seems to have been making a concerted effort to be the leader in industry innovation. Personally, though I'm a fan of the old technology, I commend the effort...yet Tyler seems to think that they've just been throwing shit together, slapping a Swoosh on it and then jacking the price-up a bit higher. I don't think that's the case at all.

[TBLfan 25]

You have a problem with the prices of skates? Let's face it - there's a lot of R&D going on in the industry, which is inevitably going to drive the prices up a bit. Which begs the question: "Why is the (essentially unchanged) 7-series STILL selling at such a relatively high price...with that price about to jump even higher?"

There are representatives from just about every major company who, at the very least, actively peruse this forum on a regular basis...almost none of whom use their account to spread their "Anti-*whoever*" propaganda against other companies the way that you have.

It doesn't matter where you work...until you start taking shots at other companies. Then it just makes you suspect.

Don't forget that graf switched their runner supplier right? Or did they change the grade, to make it not-suck less. That's innovation right there. This company is going insane with R&D costs.

Honestly, I would have considered Grafs my next go around in skates. But since Tyler joined the forum he has changed my mind for good. All I hear from anyone that has ever worked at graf is cockiness and penis-envy from all the larger manufacters. Mix that in with who-gives-a-damn customer service and you have a company that PROVES they don't deserve my money or anyone elses.

[epstud74 24]

R&D costs? Ski and snowboard boots and figure skating boots have beat hockey to the "mold to your foot" technology. A lot of these ideas are borrowed from elsewhere even though Easton does have a nice concept with the one piece idea. Are any of these developments bigger than the advent of the Tuuk holder? People who want ultra light boots better be patient regarding durability and fit.

You have a problem with the prices of skates? Let's face it - there's a lot of R&D going on in the industry, which is inevitably going to drive the prices up a bit. Which begs the question: "Why is the (essentially unchanged) 7-series STILL selling at such a relatively high price...with that price about to jump even higher?"

There are representatives from just about every major company who, at the very least, actively peruse this forum on a regular basis...almost none of whom use their account to spread their "Anti-*whoever*" propaganda against other companies the way that you have.

It doesn't matter where you work...until you start taking shots at other companies. Then it just makes you suspect.

[GrafPro55 0]

Who says everyone is swayed by marketing? Maybe the skates fit them the way THEY like it to...

I didn't like the idea of Nike buying Bauer before I worked at Graf. I guess what it boils down to is, you have 2 products. One is 50% marketing and 50% product. The other is 75% product and 25% marketing. Not talking Grafs or skates or anything. Just a neutral product. Which do you want? Would you be upset if you had been swayed by marketing into a lesser product? That is the only problem I have with a company using marketing to sell something as important to hockey as a skate.

I didn't say everyone. Marketing doesn't work on everyone. Some people ignore it and look at the product. I also never said people shouldn't be wearing Bauer or CCM. If it fits you, and you like skating in it, perfect. All I have been saying all along is that I am opposed to a "marketing" company getting involved in something as important as skates.

I also have noticed that none of you have said where your position in the industry is. Its easy to attack someone when nobody knows who you are.

[TBLfan 25]

Everyone knows who SRI is and he doesn't need to explain his position as he is already a very well respected member, you... not so much.

[GrafPro55 0]

You have a problem with the prices of skates? Let's face it - there's a lot of R&D going on in the industry, which is inevitably going to drive the prices up a bit. Which begs the question: "Why is the (essentially unchanged) 7-series STILL selling at such a relatively high price...with that price about to jump even higher?"

There are representatives from just about every major company who, at the very least, actively peruse this forum on a regular basis...almost none of whom use their account to spread their "Anti-*whoever*" propaganda against other companies the way that you have.

It doesn't matter where you work...until you start taking shots at other companies. Then it just makes you suspect.

Don't forget that graf switched their runner supplier right? Or did they change the grade, to make it not-suck less. That's innovation right there. This company is going insane with R&D costs.

Honestly, I would have considered Grafs my next go around in skates. But since Tyler joined the forum he has changed my mind for good. All I hear from anyone that has ever worked at graf is cockiness and penis-envy from all the larger manufacters. Mix that in with who-gives-a-damn customer service and you have a company that PROVES they don't deserve my money or anyone elses.

My feelings aren't hurt.

[TBLfan 25]

Neither are mine, now I dont have to worry about... Finding an antique dealer that carries Graf. I dont have to pay to have GOOD holder mounted. And I dont have to worry about dealing with Graf customer service and putting up with a mindless prick like yourself.

[epstud74 24]

I have no idea what SRI does but he pimps Kor skates a bit. Can you fill me in?

[GrafPro55 0]

Everyone knows who SRI is and he doesn't need to explain his position as he is already a very well respected member, you... not so much.

So SRI is allowed an opinion, but I'm not? Someone posted a topic, I gave my opinion and was attacked for it. Who are you, anyway?

[LkptTiger 1]

R&D costs? Ski and snowboard boots and figure skating boots have beat hockey to the "mold to your foot" technology. A lot of these ideas are borrowed from elsewhere even though Easton does have a nice concept with the one piece idea. Are any of these developments bigger than the advent of the Tuuk holder? People who want ultra light boots better be patient regarding durability and fit.

I don't mean to get into a big thing with you here, but you're kinda making it sound like NikeBauer/Easton/et al are able to take ski/snowboard boots, rivet holders to them and VIOLA - that's a skate. I might not work in the development of said products, but I don't think that could possibly be the case.

Researching that existing (downhill) technology costs money. Researching patents on that existing technology costs money. Putting that existing technology on the ice costs money. Tweaking that technology to work on the ice costs money. Patenting that tweaked (new?) technology costs money. You get the idea.

By contrast, Graf's 7XX-series has been the same for years, but the price has stayed the same forever - AND IT'S GOING UP. Tyler wants to complain about the other guys' prices...he should look at the stickers we've got on the Grafs in the shop I work in.

[GrafPro55 0]

Neither are mine, now I dont have to worry about... Finding an antique dealer that carries Graf. I dont have to pay to have GOOD holder mounted. And I dont have to worry about dealing with Graf customer service and putting up with a mindless prick like yourself.

Name calling. Very mature.

[TBLfan 25]

Everyone knows who SRI is and he doesn't need to explain his position as he is already a very well respected member, you... not so much.

So SRI is allowed an opinion, but I'm not? Someone posted a topic, I gave my opinion and was attacked for it. Who are you, anyway?

It wasnt soo much that you posted you're opinion as you posted one of the most ignorant posts I have ever seen.

Neither are mine, now I dont have to worry about... Finding an antique dealer that carries Graf. I dont have to pay to have GOOD holder mounted. And I dont have to worry about dealing with Graf customer service and putting up with a mindless prick like yourself.

Name calling. Very mature.

It's exactly what you are. Mindless, you should expect that when you post out of ignorance. Prick, you should expect that when you act like you and your company is the greatest thing on the earth and everything else sucks. If the skate fits, wear it.

[mack 44]

Maybe he just answers phones for them. Maybe he cleans up the shitters. Who knows, I think I just assumed too much and gave too much credit to someone posting credentials.

[GrafPro55 0]

Everyone knows who SRI is and he doesn't need to explain his position as he is already a very well respected member, you... not so much.

So SRI is allowed an opinion, but I'm not? Someone posted a topic, I gave my opinion and was attacked for it. Who are you, anyway?

It wasnt soo much that you posted you're opinion as you posted one of the most ignorant posts I have ever seen.

Neither are mine, now I dont have to worry about... Finding an antique dealer that carries Graf. I dont have to pay to have GOOD holder mounted. And I dont have to worry about dealing with Graf customer service and putting up with a mindless prick like yourself.

Name calling. Very mature.

It's exactly what you are. Mindless, you should expect that when you post out of ignorance. Prick, should should expect that when you act like you and your company is the greatest thing on the earth and everything else sucks. If the skate fits, wear it.

I don't remember saying my company is the greatest on earth and everything else sucks. Can you show me where I said that? You still haven't told me where you belong in this industry. All you have done is called names and claimed that any opinion that you don't agree with is ignorant.

[epstud74 24]

how are the holders "antique?" Aggressive? Yes.. Many people just cannot adjust to the Cobra 3000 or 50000 I guess. It took me awhile myself. As for other holders, I love the E-Pros I'm in now. The LSP2s hurt my feet.. Hard to explain I guess.

Neither are mine, now I dont have to worry about... Finding an antique dealer that carries Graf. I dont have to pay to have GOOD holder mounted. And I dont have to worry about dealing with Graf customer service and putting up with a mindless prick like yourself.

[mack 44]

I don't remember saying my company is the greatest on earth and everything else sucks. Can you show me where I said that? You still haven't told me where you belong in this industry. All you have done is called names and claimed that any opinion that you don't agree with is ignorant.

He's a consumer, the most important part of an industry.