Some Thoughts on Skate Marketing

[PWBIII 0]

I don't remember saying my company is the greatest on earth and everything else sucks. Can you show me where I said that? You still haven't told me where you belong in this industry. All you have done is called names and claimed that any opinion that you don't agree with is ignorant.

He's a consumer, the most important part of an industry.

BINGO!

Holy shit that just made reading this whole crazy thread worthwhile.

[JJStripes 1]

Is this relevant?

Yeah. Spezza who?

Jagr, Forsberg, and even Gretzky at one time wore them. What people don't understand is that Graf doesn't pay anyone to wear our skates. Look at the refs and linesmen in the NHL, WHL, OHL. They wear Grafs. They don't get endorsement money, so they wear what they think feel is the best skate. All the superstars Graf has lost to the big companies was because of big endorsement money. Graf is a product company, not a marketing company. Now, do you want a skate because Crosby wears it, or do you want a skate that is the best for you?

:P Oh, and I could list every Ref and linesman that wear them, but that wouldn't be fair.

[GrafPro55 0]

Game, set, and match! mack, once again, you rule!

He's a consumer, the most important part of an industry.

Well, I am a consumer, I am a player, and I work in the industry. Am I allowed to have an opinion? Is mine not valid because of where I work? Does some guy in Tampa get to start calling me names because my opinion doesn't match his?

[TBLfan 25]

Everyone knows who SRI is and he doesn't need to explain his position as he is already a very well respected member, you... not so much.

So SRI is allowed an opinion, but I'm not? Someone posted a topic, I gave my opinion and was attacked for it. Who are you, anyway?

It wasnt soo much that you posted you're opinion as you posted one of the most ignorant posts I have ever seen.

Neither are mine, now I dont have to worry about... Finding an antique dealer that carries Graf. I dont have to pay to have GOOD holder mounted. And I dont have to worry about dealing with Graf customer service and putting up with a mindless prick like yourself.

Name calling. Very mature.

It's exactly what you are. Mindless, you should expect that when you post out of ignorance. Prick, should should expect that when you act like you and your company is the greatest thing on the earth and everything else sucks. If the skate fits, wear it.

I don't remember saying my company is the greatest on earth and everything else sucks. Can you show me where I said that? You still haven't told me where you belong in this industry. All you have done is called names and claimed that any opinion that you don't agree with is ignorant.

You've done nothing BUT promote your company and talk negatively about others, saying they're all marketing. For the rest of the arguement, all you need to do is read the thread.

The holder isn't antique, the skate design is.

Sure a 1984 Jeep is pretty durable but times have changed and things have gone a long way. Why mess with something that already works? To make it better.

[mack 44]

Tell you what, Tyler. Go sign-up with another username and I'll give you a head start by not telling JR to check on that. This time around, don't reference where you work and use it when it's convenient to you to mention it.

[epstud74 24]

I understand what your getting at, but my position is that skate prices are getting out of hand and marketing does play a part in this. I dont think the consumer is getting what they are paying for to be honest with you.

You are not the only one that has noticed the still high prices of Graf 700 series skates. How many people on this board have purchased One90 skates and suffered from foot pain? To me, comfort is a bigger issue to me than some fancy outsole that gives me the illusion of transfer of power and spring in my step. I can get that in a proper fitting skate. Like I have said before, it took NBH awhile to get it right and I really did like the fit of the One95 when I tried them on. It was like night and day compared to the One90. comfort-wise. I cannot comment on them durability-wise due to obvious reasons.

R&D costs? Ski and snowboard boots and figure skating boots have beat hockey to the "mold to your foot" technology. A lot of these ideas are borrowed from elsewhere even though Easton does have a nice concept with the one piece idea. Are any of these developments bigger than the advent of the Tuuk holder? People who want ultra light boots better be patient regarding durability and fit.

I don't mean to get into a big thing with you here, but you're kinda making it sound like NikeBauer/Easton/et al are able to take ski/snowboard boots, rivet holders to them and VIOLA - that's a skate. I might not work in the development of said products, but I don't think that could possibly be the case.

Researching that existing (downhill) technology costs money. Researching patents on that existing technology costs money. Putting that existing technology on the ice costs money. Tweaking that technology to work on the ice costs money. Patenting that tweaked (new?) technology costs money. You get the idea.

By contrast, Graf's 7XX-series has been the same for years, but the price has stayed the same forever - AND IT'S GOING UP. Tyler wants to complain about the other guys' prices...he should look at the stickers we've got on the Grafs in the shop I work in.

[LkptTiger 1]

Tyler, given your position/affiliation in the industry (whatever it might really be), it would be nice if you would practice some discretion while commenting on other company's product - especially when there are such glaring flaws in your argument. I think that's really all we're trying to get at, here.

[TBLfan 25]

Game, set, and match! mack, once again, you rule!

He's a consumer, the most important part of an industry.

Well, I am a consumer, I am a player, and I work in the industry. Am I allowed to have an opinion? Is mine not valid because of where I work? Does some guy in Tampa get to start calling me names because my opinion doesn't match his?

You're coming from a position that is supposed to be informed and as someone "in the industry" you should at least TRY to sound professional. You are allowed to have an opinion but when you're opinion is extremely ignorant(seriously, how can you claim the one90 isnt innovative? It's all marketing right?) you're going to get critisized.

If I said that composite sticks aren't innovative, because I like wood better... Does that make my opinion right? No, because it would be an ignorant statement.

[GrafPro55 0]

Tell you what, Tyler. Go sign-up with another username and I'll give you a head start by not telling JR to check on that. This time around, don't reference where you work and use it when it's convenient to you to mention it.

I'm not ashamed of where I work. I have answered a ton of PM's from people wanting advice on skates. All I ask is that I am not attacked for having an opinion. If you feel it necessary to hide behind anonymity, so be it.

[LkptTiger 1]

I dont think the consumer is getting what they are paying for to be honest with you.

Unfortunately, the consumer is being forced to pay it. It's a cruel world - especially for those who have to pay full retail. There is no alternative, though - and Graf is just as guilty as everyone else. Not only is their old technology still selling at a premium, but their "questionable" (not just my opinion - from what I've gathered, it's the general consensus) new stuff is selling for $600.

At least companies like NBH are opening new doors that might somewhat justify such high prices. The same can't be said for Graf.

[mack 44]

Tell you what, Tyler. Go sign-up with another username and I'll give you a head start by not telling JR to check on that. This time around, don't reference where you work and use it when it's convenient to you to mention it.

I'm not ashamed of where I work. I have answered a ton of PM's from people wanting advice on skates. All I ask is that I am not attacked for having an opinion. If you feel it necessary to hide behind anonymity, so be it.

Uh this is my name and not a verb or a nickname. Good job on not being ashamed of where you're work, but would some be ashamed of you working for them? Opinions are fine but sometimes people are in positions where they should keep mum about them.

I also don't get this love affair you have with saying people are hiding behind anonymity. No one made you put your name in your sig and no one really gives a shit enough to Google you I'm sure.

[LkptTiger 1]

Isn't "Google" like a dirty word around here?

[epstud74 24]

We may not agree with Tyler on this board at times, but we can appreciate the Graf knowledge he brings. Maybe our feedback will trickle its way up to Graf...who knows? This forum shouldnt be taken too lightly and it seems to be growing daily and maybe shop owners and manufacturers would best be served by paying some attention to the feedback and discussions generated in here.

[mack 44]

Isn't "Google" like a dirty word around here?

No one will know what it is since it's forbidden by most. It's like me telling a Frenchman where a soap shop is. Oh shit I made a French joke ironydoublestandardlolzor!!1!ELEVEN

[GrafPro55 0]

Boy, are you guys ever hostile. You attack Graf way more than I have attacked any company. In fact, the company I have spoken out against, is no longer in the hockey business. If you want marketing over product, have fun limping around the ice. I would like to see the swing go even harder the way of product over marketing.

[TBLfan 25]

When you post an issue and you get PMs from people in the industry, from screen names you probably wouldn't recognize, you know that this forum isnt taken lightly.

And like I said, it's not his opinion. I'm fine with him saying that he thinks Graf is better, that's fine. But when he makes inaccurate claims such as the one90/U+ being all marketing you have to speak up.

If there is one or two things that I can't stand is making false claims and/or giving false information. Most of the time they go hand in hand and most of the time I will call them out on it. And this is basically how we got here. It has nothing to do with an opinion, it had to do with a very inaccurate statement from a guy that some users have looked to for advice.

[Viking 1]

I demand to be paid reparations by the people responsible for the portion of my life wasted by reading this thread. You people all need to fucking grow up.

[GrafPro55 0]

As for pricing, I think the consumers automatically assume the more money a skate is, the better it is. All you have to do to make people think you have the best skate in the world is make it paper light, and charge 50 bucks more than all the other skates.

[mack 44]

One of the PMers.

[LkptTiger 1]

Viking: It's something to do. Personally, I'm here because it's 3:15 in the morning where I am and I don't feel like struggling to grab 4 hours of sleep before it's time to go to school in the morning. What's your excuse?

Tyler: Just because you fail to market your product, it doesn't put those who do so in the wrong.

[GrafPro55 0]

Viking: It's something to do. Personally, I'm here because it's 3:15 in the morning where I am and I don't feel like struggling to grab 4 hours of sleep before it's time to go to school in the morning. What's your excuse?

Tyler: Just because you fail to market your product, it doesn't put those who do so in the wrong.

It's not "my" product. I work there. You guys are just looking for a fight. Go pick on some kid asking for advice on how to skate. Maybe that will make you guys feel cool.

[mack 44]

See, that's where you pull the convenience card. Now it's not your product, telling me you can't stand behind the company you work for. But when someone PMs you for help, I'm sure you're loving the attention for being an industry guy. Fuck that.

[TBLfan 25]

Pricing isn't really an issue. Tyler is right, if you price the skates are $200 or whatever people are going to wonder; "What's wrong with them?" Look at how many people asked if Kors were worth the money when they went on sale at HG, I'm sure it was a lot worse on other forums besides MSH where the quality of kor is well known.

That being said, there is no excuse for them charging that much and being cheap and unresponsive when it comes to customer service. AND you'd THINK that they could use the extra money they're making for some R&D or *gasp* marketing.

[Viking 1]

Viking: It's something to do. Personally, I'm here because it's 3:15 in the morning where I am and I don't feel like struggling to grab 4 hours of sleep before it's time to go to school in the morning. What's your excuse?

Pretty much the same. I have a plane to catch at 6:30, so there's not much point in going to bed at this point, nor is there much else to do at this time of night.

[GrafPro55 0]

See, that's where you pull the convenience card. Now it's not your product, telling me you can't stand behind the company you work for.

What I mean is, my department isn't marketing. Relax. You guys are so damn touchy. If you don't like it, don't buy it. Nobody is holding a gun to your head.