Extreme combination radius (7/14 etc)

[Jordan 13]

You use all three sections of the blade at various times. Laura Stamm explains it better than I can below:

Laura Stamm Powerskating

LAURA STAMM INTERNATIONAL POWER SKATING SYSTEM

INTERNET TIP

November/December, 2008

The Hockey Skating Pushes

The One-Third Principle:

When skating forward (forward stride and forward crossovers), there are three parts of each push.

The first third of each push is done with the back third of the blade.

The second third of each push is done with the middle third of the blade.

The final third of each push is done with the front third of the blade**.

It follows that each third of a push is equivalent to one third of the power generated during that push.

What this really means is that if technique is faulty during any portion of the push the player loses a percentage of the thrusting power (potential speed) of that push.

If technique is incorrect at the beginning of the push (Wind-up), the player loses the first third of that push.

The second third, or middle of the push (Release), is easier than either the first or third parts, so most players get this second third. Unfortunately, many players ONLY get this third of the push.

If technique is faulty at the finish of the push (Follow-through and toe-flick), the player loses the final third of that push.

Loss of one third of one’s potential power in a sprint sport such as hockey results in a damaging loss of speed. Loss of two thirds guarantees slowness. Remember - fast-legged skaters look fast, but this is because they are churning their legs furiously. Correct, complete and powerful pushes, performed rapidly, are the goal. Remember this too: Walking and running are natural motions of the body. But skating motions and skating pushes are not natural. They must be learned/taught properly and then practiced (correctly and repeatedly) over a period of many years.

Wind-up of the Forward Stride Toe-flick of the Forward Stride

For a detailed explanation of how to execute each hockey skating push correctly and powerfully, refer to my book,

LAURA STAMM’S POWER SKATING. Also, check for a Laura Stamm Power Skating Clinic near you.

* One or two other pushes that are rarely used are not discussed here.

** The one-third principle does not apply to “toe starts”.

SKATE GREAT HOCKEY!

LAURA STAMM

Copyright, November, 2008

[SolarWind 23]

thanks Jordan

I was also referring to what not only Stamm, but also Sean Skinner & Bobby Glantz are teaching - other then the "toe flick" which is only a last third (finishing touch) of the stride push the front part of the blade isn't used even for forward skating

Granted - it's only 3 opinions, so I would be wery interested in other points of view - hence my earlier question

Chadd

all 3 instructors are quite well known & the way they teach forward stride is quite different from what you were saying

do you have any specific reference/article you could point me to? Sounds like a whole different school of thought I'm not familiar with so I'd like to explore it further

[Chadd 916]

thanks Jordan

I was also referring to what not only Stamm, but also Sean Skinner & Bobby Glantz are teaching - other then the "toe flick" which is only a last third (finishing touch) of the stride push the front part of the blade isn't used even for forward skating

Granted - it's only 3 opinions, so I would be wery interested in other points of view - hence my earlier question

Chadd

all 3 instructors are quite well known & the way they teach forward stride is quite different from what you were saying

do you have any specific reference/article you could point me to? Sounds like a whole different school of thought I'm not familiar with so I'd like to explore it further

Sorry, the stuff I was told came from personal interaction with the coaches and instructors. Laura Stamm's stride is efficient for power transfer but is not the quickest from a standing or nearly standing start. Nor is it as effective in game action. To be honest I'm very surprised to see her promoting a style that uses the rear third of the skate. Every instructor I've spoken with has really focused on acceleration and/or agility and having your heel flat on the ice makes that very difficult to achieve.

[SolarWind 23]

Sorry, the stuff I was told came from personal interaction with the coaches and instructors. Laura Stamm's stride is efficient for power transfer but is not the quickest from a standing or nearly standing start. Nor is it as effective in game action. To be honest I'm very surprised to see her promoting a style that uses the rear third of the skate. Every instructor I've spoken with has really focused on acceleration and/or agility and having your heel flat on the ice makes that very difficult to achieve.

she has a separate instructions for quick starts which are basically 2-3 running steps using the first 2-3 inches of the inside edge of the toe - in these cases the heels aren't touching the ice (she's very specific about it & has a bunch of drills teaching is such as penguin walk/run etc) so I don't see any difference between what you've been told & what she is teaching

the stride push described above has nothing to do with it though - it is used AFTER you finish these first few running steps & somewhat get up to speed

having that said running on the toes & using short radius for turning aren't related so back to the topic :)

[Chadd 916]

Sorry, the stuff I was told came from personal interaction with the coaches and instructors. Laura Stamm's stride is efficient for power transfer but is not the quickest from a standing or nearly standing start. Nor is it as effective in game action. To be honest I'm very surprised to see her promoting a style that uses the rear third of the skate. Every instructor I've spoken with has really focused on acceleration and/or agility and having your heel flat on the ice makes that very difficult to achieve.

she has a separate instructions for quick starts which are basically 2-3 running steps using the first 2-3 inches of the inside edge of the toe - in these cases the heels aren't touching the ice (she's very specific about it & has a bunch of drills teaching is such as penguin walk/run etc) so I don't see any difference between what you've been told & what she is teaching

the stride push described above has nothing to do with it though - it is used AFTER you finish these first few running steps & somewhat get up to speed

having that said running on the toes & using short radius for turning aren't related so back to the topic :)

Rarely do you get to take much more than those 3 or 4 strides in one direction in a game

[K9 Unit 1]

ye...i gotta stick with chadd on this...i haven't taking any skating lessons since i learnt how to skate but i'm a natural speedster in every sport and i know for sure when i skate i use my toe way more than my heel to push forward hence why i use +1 on my PITCH3's...i really want to try these combo sharpenings...i could never figured if i should use 9' or 11' since i skate fast but i also need that turning tight aspect

[SolarWind 23]

well - first of all there's nothing natural about skating - everything about it is very unnatural statring from the fact that you always keep your knees bent & the fact that you push to the side rather then back

secondly - from what I can garther Chadd & I were essentially saying same thing as far as acceleration goes, but he didnt' really say anything about the stride or turns so I'm sticking with my opinion for now.

all I can say is that I just wend back to 9' after being on 7/14 for a few months & oh boy what a difference in agility! turning, transitioning & stops are so fast & quick it's unbelievable (most likely because I got used to having so much steel on the ice & now with a lot less steel it's like a walk in a park or something :))

wouldn't say that my speed or stability suffered either, so in all honesty until I hear a clear explanation on how the combos were even expected to work for someone who wants to be agile (and not just fast in a straight line) on the ice I'm not a big fan of them...

definitely won't go back to 7/14, but might consider something like 8/10 or along these lines

what I would be really curious to know is what forwards in the show are using - I suspect most of them are quite content with 9' but if anybody has any stats or just any inside that would be awesome!

[Chadd 916]

I think you'll find that most people are going to be more comfortable on a single radius between 8 and 12'. As for the strides a big part of it is just going to be how different instructors explain it and who their target audience is. I'm not a powerskating expert, as anyone who has seen me skate can attest, I was simply repeating something that I was told by others. Their instructions helped me and that's all that I was really concerned about, to be totally honest. Now if I can just find a way to get in shape without any effort I'll be happy.

[SolarWind 23]

fair enough Chadd - thanks.

hopefully some experts (Jimmy/Bob - hint-hint ;) ) can comment on this to shed some light on this subject...

[Chadd 916]

fair enough Chadd - thanks.

hopefully some experts (Jimmy/Bob - hint-hint ;) ) can comment on this to shed some light on this subject...

Better yet, experts without a financial interest.

[guasto74 0]

well - first of all there's nothing natural about skating - everything about it is very unnatural statring from the fact that you always keep your knees bent & the fact that you push to the side rather then back

secondly - from what I can garther Chadd & I were essentially saying same thing as far as acceleration goes, but he didnt' really say anything about the stride or turns so I'm sticking with my opinion for now.

all I can say is that I just wend back to 9' after being on 7/14 for a few months & oh boy what a difference in agility! turning, transitioning & stops are so fast & quick it's unbelievable (most likely because I got used to having so much steel on the ice & now with a lot less steel it's like a walk in a park or something :))

wouldn't say that my speed or stability suffered either, so in all honesty until I hear a clear explanation on how the combos were even expected to work for someone who wants to be agile (and not just fast in a straight line) on the ice I'm not a big fan of them...

definitely won't go back to 7/14, but might consider something like 8/10 or along these lines

what I would be really curious to know is what forwards in the show are using - I suspect most of them are quite content with 9' but if anybody has any stats or just any inside that would be awesome!

Well I've had a similar experience to you. Except that I did feel a little unstable when going back to the 9. I'll be trying 7/10 out soon and will report back. But if it still hampers my stopping then that will be the end of the experiment and I'll stick with 9.

[K9 Unit 1]

~shrug~ maybe i just have a different skating stance than you...can you explain why your stops are unstable? coz when i stop i use my heel and in theory i guess more blade on ice at the heel would help me stop better

[ktang 34]

I read somewhere that, in last year's Stanley Cup Finals (2008), the Penguins forwards used a dual-compound radius (9'-10'), and the Red Wings forwards used a triple-compound radius (9'-10'-9').

[SolarWind 23]

~shrug~ maybe i just have a different skating stance than you...can you explain why your stops are unstable? coz when i stop i use my heel and in theory i guess more blade on ice at the heel would help me stop better

not sure who said anything about 'unstable stops' - the guy above talked about stops & unstability in 2 different contexts, and I didn't say anything about it at all

in general stopping is more difficult (at least initially - but it's something that can't be adjusted to, and wasn't something I was trying to stress on - still affects agility though) with combos for 2 reasons:

- simply because there's more blade on the ice making it harder to turn (just try one leg stops on different profiles - you'll see what I mean)

- because the high point of a rocker is in an unusual place (where 2 radiuses meet)

re this part "when i stop i use my heel" - this is strange, because this isn't how normally stops are executed - the ice is scraped with the balls of your feel, not the heel (heel would just either dig into the ice & you'd catch an edge & fall, or cause chatter)

re 9/10/9 - makes total sense to me (would address my heel turn question), plus it isn't really extreme... I guess 8/11/8 would really be a kicker, but I'm no sure if anybody offers that

[guasto74 0]

~shrug~ maybe i just have a different skating stance than you...can you explain why your stops are unstable? coz when i stop i use my heel and in theory i guess more blade on ice at the heel would help me stop better

not sure who said anything about 'unstable stops' - the guy above talked about stops & unstability in 2 different contexts, and I didn't say anything about it at all

in general stopping is more difficult (at least initially - but it's something that can't be adjusted to, and wasn't something I was trying to stress on - still affects agility though) with combos for 2 reasons:

- simply because there's more blade on the ice making it harder to turn (just try one leg stops on different profiles - you'll see what I mean)

- because the high point of a rocker is in an unusual place (where 2 radiuses meet)

re this part "when i stop i use my heel" - this is strange, because this isn't how normally stops are executed - the ice is scraped with the balls of your feel, not the heel (heel would just either dig into the ice & you'd catch an edge & fall, or cause chatter)

re 9/10/9 - makes total sense to me (would address my heel turn question), plus it isn't really extreme... I guess 8/11/8 would really be a kicker, but I'm no sure if anybody offers that

It's just probably more of a mental thing for me re: stopping. I'm sure I could adjust to it but a straight 9 makes it very easy for me to do quick stops and transitions. Like I mentioned earlier instead of a 12 in the heel I'm going to try a 10 and see how that feels. I willing to experiment a little more so I figured I'd give it a shot.

Also, my stops were not unstable. It was mostly my crossovers where I felt like I had to really concentrate or I would lose an edge when switching back to the 9. I've skated on 9's for a couple of years now but after that combo radius, I've just become more aware of the profile. Mostly a mental thing...

[K9 Unit 1]

~shrug~ maybe i just have a different skating stance than you...can you explain why your stops are unstable? coz when i stop i use my heel and in theory i guess more blade on ice at the heel would help me stop better

not sure who said anything about 'unstable stops' - the guy above talked about stops & unstability in 2 different contexts, and I didn't say anything about it at all

in general stopping is more difficult (at least initially - but it's something that can't be adjusted to, and wasn't something I was trying to stress on - still affects agility though) with combos for 2 reasons:

- simply because there's more blade on the ice making it harder to turn (just try one leg stops on different profiles - you'll see what I mean)

- because the high point of a rocker is in an unusual place (where 2 radiuses meet)

re this part "when i stop i use my heel" - this is strange, because this isn't how normally stops are executed - the ice is scraped with the balls of your feel, not the heel (heel would just either dig into the ice & you'd catch an edge & fall, or cause chatter)

re 9/10/9 - makes total sense to me (would address my heel turn question), plus it isn't really extreme... I guess 8/11/8 would really be a kicker, but I'm no sure if anybody offers that

It's just probably more of a mental thing for me re: stopping. I'm sure I could adjust to it but a straight 9 makes it very easy for me to do quick stops and transitions. Like I mentioned earlier instead of a 12 in the heel I'm going to try a 10 and see how that feels. I willing to experiment a little more so I figured I'd give it a shot.

Also, my stops were not unstable. It was mostly my crossovers where I felt like I had to really concentrate or I would lose an edge when switching back to the 9. I've skated on 9's for a couple of years now but after that combo radius, I've just become more aware of the profile. Mostly a mental thing...

aight thanks guys, i just quickly scanned the first few pages before i wrote that so ye...=P i guess its just me when i stop i put most pressure on my heel for some reason...it was just really natural when i did it...maybe a combo would work for me maybe not...i'll try it next time i get my skates sharpened ^^ the triple compound sounds like THE way to go for a lot of people huh? i wonder if the local sharpeners can do it...

oh ye i gotta agree skating ain't natural...but i got this thing from my dad...its when walking/running whatever, my feet ain't parallel to each other its a little tilted out so when i run and nearly the same motion as when i skate. i think it called flat footed or duck whatever lol...hopefully u get what i mean

[SolarWind 23]

its when walking/running whatever, my feet ain't parallel to each other its a little tilted out so when i run and nearly the same motion as when i skate. i think it called flat footed or duck whatever lol...hopefully u get what i mean

I know exactly what you mean :) I also know from anatomy what causes your feet to turn outwards - your quads are dominant meaning they're way stronger then your hamstrings, causing the rotation

it can actually be quite damaging in the long term, and is definitely detrimental for effective running (since hamstrings are major movers with 2 functions - comonly know knee flexion, but also less known hip extension used for pushes & jumps - that's why all sprinters pay so much attention to their hamstring development)

has nothing to do with combos of course, but if you correct the imbalance by making your hammies stronger you'd see great improvements in your skating

[K9 Unit 1]

i never really worked out on my legs to be honest, i usually work upper body way more, coz they were strong from the beginning...i starting walking on my own when i was 9 months old which is apparantly never happens to any baby...so i guess my legs are just a lil better developed. not to brag but i clocked 12 secs on a 100m dash when i was 12 and i can dunk when i was around 15 (i'm 6 foot) and u add the fact that i'm asian then everybody looks at me weird when i do it lol

dunno wtf i just talked but anyways if anyone finds a dude that'll do the triple compound sharpening in TO please tell me

[docar15 1]

I have been using 7-13 for a couple of years now. I tried 9, 11, 12 flat, 7-12 and finally 7-13. I have pins in my left ankle and this caused me to have toe grab issues on the front (I could not skate in a factory Cobra 3000 steel) and some push off issues on the back. When I went from 7-12 to 7-13 the difference may have been very small, but I will swear that I can feel it.

Oh yeah, all steel is CCM, 281mm blade. I have not tried the rocket runner, yet.

Dunking and sprinting is great, but can you do it for 20 - 30 minutes at a time while wearing 130 flex ski boot? Compare may not be as extreme, but proper blades do make a difference in my opinion.

Hope this helps. PM me if you need more info.

[SolarWind 23]

I've been skating on 9' straight for a month now, and definitely not going back to combos mainly for 3 reasons (in this order):

1) described above - I'm a lot more agive with shorter radius, and haven't noticed any decrease in speed. Actually (not related by still) the speed is up after I went to FBV so I'm happy

2) local sharpeners don't know how to sharpen combos properly, so the profile would get screwed ever so slightly after EACH sharpenning requiring some adjustment time (high point would shift affecting stops & transitions) - VERY annoying

3) backwards skating isn't compromised & is consistent in line with forward skating

since nobody actually contradicted my observations I'm sticking to my opinion that while the theory might sound Ok on paper it actually doesn't really work in real world

[Big Jim 1]

Reading this thread has me a bit nervous. I just ordered steel and a custom combo radius from No Icing. I was very impressed with their website and their customer service thus far has been absolutely great. I'm a little bit nervous about the radius they're going to be doing though. Bob recommended 8'/13'. The 13' has me nervous. I have RBK 5ks and Bob told me the stock profile on those is 10'. I'm a relatively new skater but I really like it. My stops are great.. I can pivot into the stop perfectly so to speak. Hoping I can still do that with the new combo. Really I guess I'll just have to wait and see. Just wanted to bump the thread and see if anyone else wants to chime in and cast a vote. I'm please to see that 7 have liked it as opposed to only who hasn't. I'll be sure to report back once I get them.

[raganblink 82]

I skate on 8.5"/12" from an 11" stock ls2.1.

I love it. much nicer than the stock 11". I Atleast am much quicker on my feet and have really no problems stopping. it will take a couple minutes to get used to but you get the hang of it quickly.

and they are right those rbks come with 10". that radius they put on isn't going to be that bad, its not that extreme. you'll most likely like it.

[Big Jim 1]

Thanks man, that has me relieved a bit. They supposedly will change it if you don't like it anyways. I wasn't too worried considering their reputation, but thank you.

[JR Boucicaut 3789]

I'd rather work with the skater than force them into something. Just sayin'.

[raganblink 82]

Agreed... Atleast they'll change it (assuming at no charge).