Graf runner parts

[duhfool 0]

I'd like to saw howdy. Wished I had found these forums a few years back, when I was looking into getting new skates.

As such, I lucked out with my LHS. They were able to fit me with some Flexlite 18's.

So, I picked up a pair of Graf skates on clearance, and got another $50 off since it didn't have any blades.

I figured this was a cheap way for me to try out Grafs without shelling over $400.

However, I'm pretty sure these are old skates, since the box is different from the boxes of the new grafs I have seen.

Very bright.

Question is, what do I need besides the runners? There is a hole on the back of the runner that looks like where a screw might go to hold the blade in place.

I've attached pictures of the box and the hole, hoping that someone can help me out.

I saw that HockeyMonkey carried replacement NT3000 holders with runners, but I'd like to save on the $25 if I don't have to get an extra pair of holders.

What goes on here? Is there a plug to cover the hole as well?

Box pics

Does the sticker mean it was manufactured in February 2001?

Thanks.

[chikinpotpie 138]

http://www.grafcanada.com/science/skate_construction.pdf

[Too Old 1]

You'll only need the two barrel nuts and bolts, and the washers that go under the nuts. My Graf skates had two of the serrated washers under each barrel nut. Then take a peek at the holder and see what length you need for steel. Most likely a 288mm runner is what they take. Simple to install but make sure to not overtighten the nuts. Use a large flat-bladed screwdriver to snug them up. If you need steel and also will have to get it sharpened I was very pleased with the service from No Icing Sports (aka Jimmy here on MSH) where I bought a second set of blades and had them profiled/FBV cut done on them. It's not a bad idea to have a spare set just in case too.

[interpathway 9]

NIS has runners sold individually without the holder. If your LHS sold you these skates but didn't offer you steel, likely they don't carry it.

http://www.noicingsports.com/graf_cobra_re...ner_senior.html

They have 288mm in stock which I believe is your size, and there is no cap that goes over the hole. The screw just sits in there.

[duhfool 0]

NIS has runners sold individually without the holder. If your LHS sold you these skates but didn't offer you steel, likely they don't carry it.

http://www.noicingsports.com/graf_cobra_re...ner_senior.html

They have 288mm in stock which I believe is your size, and there is no cap that goes over the hole. The screw just sits in there.

You are correct.

My LHS decided to stop carrying Grafs, so they could no longer order the parts directly.

chikinpotpie -- Man... I didn't even think to look for a document like that on graf's site. Thanks.

Follow up question:

I noticed that Grafs have a newer holders.

Assuming they the holes line up, would it be better to switch over to the NT5000 holders/runners (I am even contemplating trying t-blades) rather than staying with the NT3000?

I've been going through some of the older posts and it seems the NT3000 holder isn't without problems, though it seems the NT5000 isn't problem free either.

I'm in no rush to get skating, since I don't want to change skates a few weeks before playoffs.

I already switched to the new FBV blade and will be trying to get used to that feeling for a few games.

I do want to try out the Graf pitch however. Should I get blades from stepskates? It seems they offer the standard profile as Grafs.

Thanks.

[Too Old 1]

NIS has runners sold individually without the holder. If your LHS sold you these skates but didn't offer you steel, likely they don't carry it.

http://www.noicingsports.com/graf_cobra_re...ner_senior.html

They have 288mm in stock which I believe is your size, and there is no cap that goes over the hole. The screw just sits in there.

You are correct.

My LHS decided to stop carrying Grafs, so they could no longer order the parts directly.

chikinpotpie -- Man... I didn't even think to look for a document like that on graf's site. Thanks.

Follow up question:

I noticed that Grafs have a newer holders.

Assuming they the holes line up, would it be better to switch over to the NT5000 holders/runners (I am even contemplating trying t-blades) rather than staying with the NT3000?

I've been going through some of the older posts and it seems the NT3000 holder isn't without problems, though it seems the NT5000 isn't problem free either.

I'm in no rush to get skating, since I don't want to change skates a few weeks before playoffs.

I already switched to the new FBV blade and will be trying to get used to that feeling for a few games.

I do want to try out the Graf pitch however. Should I get blades from stepskates? It seems they offer the standard profile as Grafs.

Thanks.

I don't think there are a plethora of issues with the 3000 holders; just use them as-is. Seems not many are keen on the T-blades though. And if you do go to them you'll for sure need to have a spare set since they can't be sharpened. If you have to buy the new regular steel then I'd just go to NIS and have them finish them off so all you do is bolt them on when they arrive. He may even carry the needed hardware? And a spare set of those isn't a bad idea either...

[interpathway 9]

I have skated on both the 3/5000 and noticed no difference between the two (mind you though, the time between each was a good 3 years). Same pitch IIRC and crummy steel on both. Not sure if you want to give the StepSteel a try, but it has been praised countless times on here. Might be worth to you the extra coin.

[Law Goalie 147]

The only real difference between the 3000 and 5000 is water retention: the 3's soak it up and go soft after a while, the 5's don't. Same hole-pattern, same shape. The hardware and blades are totally interchangeable.

t'blades do NOT match up with Cobra holes.

I'd also suggest getting the STEP replacement Graf blades. The steel is absolutely superior, you get 10% more of it on each blade, and it'll only be a couple bucks more.

[Too Old 1]

Just curious about the holders soaking in water... how does that happen with them being plastic?

Also, it appeared that the new Step runners were virtually the same physical dimesion as the original Graf steel. I have read the 10% deal too but if so it was miniscule in appearance to me at least.

[interpathway 9]

All plastics are porous. They aren't very porous but when you're skating 2 hours and snow builds up and sits on there, they're bound to let it seep in eventually.

[Too Old 1]

Okay... say the plastic is porous. How does water in any voids change the physical structure/strength of the plastic material/holders? I'm a little skeptical about that as you can tell, lol.

[interpathway 9]

Well, the water seeps in, and once it is in it becomes quite tough to get all 100% of it back out (through drying or what not). Water builds up in the plastic over a season, two, or three, and suddenly the plastic becomes much more flexible. It is like pasta. At al dente (new holder) it has some flex to it, but still holds stiff. Once you cook the pasta for three more minutes (three seasons or what not) it suddenly yields and gives to the slightest pressure. When you or I are skating on top of our old Cobra 3000 holders, our weight combined with the torque we put on our skates (stops, starts, turns, crossovers) makes a holder that holds water much more likely to break.

Sorry for the pasta example, it was all I could really think of.

[Too Old 1]

Hmm... I'd be interested to hear more feedback from other Graf owners or those with information. I do have a bit of knowledge of plastics and still have yet to know of a plastic (at least as used for a holder) that absorbs water so as to cause it to be pliable. Any others have input???

[JR Boucicaut 3806]

In all of my years, I have never seen a Graf holder break, but I have seen them cave in quite a bit.

[Too Old 1]

I can certainly understand the holders eventually bending due to flexing over their lifespan, no doubt. But to say that water causes them to weaken is something I'm having a very hard time grasping for a concept.

[JR Boucicaut 3806]

The mixture of the plastic would indeed make it softer. Isn't the 3000 a different material than the 5000 holder?

[Too Old 1]

Even if it is a different plastic how in the world can plastic absorb water so as to make it flexible? If a solid material has porosity issues and in itself is not able to absorb water (which plastic as we know can't) then the water that soaks into the porous areas would only be displacing air. Thus I can't see how water itself could possibly contribute to weakening the holders? Most materials have a life cycle and I'm sure that's what happens to skate holders. Flexing and deterioration as time goes by... yes... water being a cause... doubt it.

[JR Boucicaut 3806]

I'm not agreeing with him, I'm just saying what I've seen.

[minwookie 0]

Not 100% sure if this applies but I do know a thing or two about water.

Water can weaken quartz. I'm pretty sure, but not positive it has to do with hydroxyl connections.

Water also changes densities with temperature. Think pot-holes on the road. Water seeps into a crack, freezes, expands and causes further pressure and cracking.

I don't know anything about the plastics of a holder and their hydroxyl connectivity but if it affects rocks, I don't see why it can't affect plastic.

[Too Old 1]

I doubt you'd see 32 degrees at the holders so as to freeze/expand water (if it truly does get into the holders). Well, as I said... I'm more curious than anything else! Keep the input coming here as this forum always is good for enlightening discussions of hockey equipment. And I for one appreciate that. ;)

ps, of course you know what will happen the next time I'm on the ice... they'll collapse just to teach me a lesson, lol :)

[Law Goalie 147]

The mixture of the plastic would indeed make it softer. Isn't the 3000 a different material than the 5000 holder?

Yeah... Chadd mentioned exactly what it was at one point, but I can't recall now. I *think* the 5000's have a higher percentage of polyamides - that rings a bell.

Too Old: take a piece of rigid plastic (not a milk jug - I mean something you can't bend with your hands) and soak it in water: if it's not an ideal water-resistant composition, it will go soft.

Or go on McMaster-Carr and look at the different plastics they have available: some are specifically formulated or coated to promote weather resistance, and the two specific substances that they're designed to resist are UV rays and water.

The plastics do, like everything else, break down over time, but the relatively fast softening of the relatively stiff plastic in Cobra 3000s has been directly attributed to water damage, hence the change of materials with the 5000s.

That said, I'm trying my damnedest to break a pair of 3000s right now, and they're holding up admirably.

As for the STEP runners, 10% of 19mm is pretty miniscule, but it does make a difference.

[Too Old 1]

Interesting. Guess they're something I'll keep my eyes on then. As I said... this is a great venue to share information. Thanks guys.

[fastmiele 59]

as much as I don't want to agree with the water part I think there is some truth to it. I got the Cobra 3000 set up and I take very good care of my skates. I cracked one of the blades in an accident after 20 skates. I took out the bolt and everything inside was rusted quite a bit. I was shocked water could even get through because the bolt is in the back end of the holder. I opened up the other skate holder and it was also rusted up pretty bad.

Afterwards, I put some grease around the threading to try and repel some of the water.