Gretzky or Orr?

[Chadd 916]

Orr without a doubt, guy had the most raw talent and skill of any player ever. hands down.

I disagree

Gotta go with Lemieux on that one...

Ironically enough Orr was in town yesterday, playing at Bay Hill.

Exactly, JR and I have had this discussion a few times. No player has ever been as physically gifted as Mario; size, strength, skill, speed, he had it all and would be a wonder in any era. If he had been better motivated and not had medical problems, it's quite possible that he would have broken Wayne's records. Orr changed the game with his play and would still be an elite player today but would not have the same impact, or numbers, in this era.

[chippa13 1844]

Orr without a doubt, guy had the most raw talent and skill of any player ever. hands down.

I disagree

Gotta go with Lemieux on that one...

Ironically enough Orr was in town yesterday, playing at Bay Hill.

Exactly, JR and I have had this discussion a few times. No player has ever been as physically gifted as Mario; size, strength, skill, speed, he had it all and would be a wonder in any era. If he had been better motivated and not had medical problems, it's quite possible that he would have broken Wayne's records. Orr changed the game with his play and would still be an elite player today but would not have the same impact, or numbers, in this era.

I think that is exactly what keeps Mario out of the discussion. As for Orr and putting up numbers, if Green can be pushing 30 goals this year, I think Orr could come very close to what he did in his playing days.

[DarkStar50 679]

Orr without a doubt, guy had the most raw talent and skill of any player ever. hands down.

I disagree

Gotta go with Lemieux on that one...

Ironically enough Orr was in town yesterday, playing at Bay Hill.

Exactly, JR and I have had this discussion a few times. No player has ever been as physically gifted as Mario; size, strength, skill, speed, he had it all and would be a wonder in any era. If he had been better motivated and not had medical problems, it's quite possible that he would have broken Wayne's records. Orr changed the game with his play and would still be an elite player today but would not have the same impact, or numbers, in this era.

Bobby Orr would win a scoring title in any era.

[Chadd 916]

Orr without a doubt, guy had the most raw talent and skill of any player ever. hands down.

I disagree

Gotta go with Lemieux on that one...

Ironically enough Orr was in town yesterday, playing at Bay Hill.

Exactly, JR and I have had this discussion a few times. No player has ever been as physically gifted as Mario; size, strength, skill, speed, he had it all and would be a wonder in any era. If he had been better motivated and not had medical problems, it's quite possible that he would have broken Wayne's records. Orr changed the game with his play and would still be an elite player today but would not have the same impact, or numbers, in this era.

I think that is exactly what keeps Mario out of the discussion. As for Orr and putting up numbers, if Green can be pushing 30 goals this year, I think Orr could come very close to what he did in his playing days.

The discussion of being the greatest ever, I agree.

Bobby Orr would win a scoring title in any era.

Considering how good defensive systems are today, I can't imagine it. It's an interesting discussion though.

[shooter27 116]

I've got a semi-related question - Does anyone know who the 5 NHL defensemen to score 100+ points in a season are? I know Orr, Leetch, and Coffey all did, but for some reason I can't find the other two. Thanks for the help.

[DarkStar50 679]

One common attribute of Gretzky and Orr playing the game is they were both unstoppable. There was no system that could stop their hockey instincts. The two players not only played the game at a different level, they could think the game at a different level. Orr in the early 70s was untouchable. Gretzky in his prime, 87 Canada Cup vs CCCP, raised his game against the best team in the world and took Mario along for the ride. Gretzky and Orr played a mental game of hockey that was way ahead of their competition.

[Law Goalie 147]

Subsequent to your post, DS, I think I've finally figured out Alex Ovechkin's thinking. Orr thought out the game by skating it; Gretzky thought out the game pass by pass; Ovechkin figures it out with shots. When Orr went for a skate, as often as not, he was simply testing the other team's system and its players to see how they'd react. Similarly a lot of Gretzky's 'bad turnovers' look suspiciously like tentative probes to find out where the cracks were. Overchkin seems to be working defenceman and goalies against one another all the time, to see in what situations they're maximally vulnerable: throw a puck on net from here, learn something about how that D and this goalie will play it and similar shots. They're all experimenting with the opposition in different but highly successful ways.

I've got a semi-related question - Does anyone know who the 5 NHL defensemen to score 100+ points in a season are? I know Orr, Leetch, and Coffey all did, but for some reason I can't find the other two. Thanks for the help.

Denis Potvin was one of them. I'd bet Brad Park was the other, but I might very well be wrong there; the 5th one could be a good deal more obscure.

edit: The 5th was Al MacInnis - Bourque and Housely got within a couple of points as well, if memory serves. Doug Harvey had a few years where he would have hit 100pts if there had been enough teams in the league and/or games in the season.

[DarkStar50 679]

LG,

I agree completely with your descriptions of how Orr, Gretzky, and Ovechkin play the game. All NHL players have a base level skill set that maintains their game. It is the truly great players who "think the game" that separate themselves from the rest of the pack. As you said, Orr used his tremendous skating ability(he was so far ahead of all NHLers at the time in natural skating ability) to "think the game". Gretzky's chessboard on ice(mentally preparing his second play/pass before completing the first) was just beyond what anyone could imagine to "think the game". And I have to agree that Ovechkin for all his seemingly uncontrolled energy game is PROBABLY measuring the opponent's position/system/tendencies every fantastic rush up ice as he "thinks the game".

[tommym96 0]

The Great One Bobby Orr

[Neal 41]

LG,

I agree completely with your descriptions of how Orr, Gretzky, and Ovechkin play the game. All NHL players have a base level skill set that maintains their game. It is the truly great players who "think the game" that separate themselves from the rest of the pack. As you said, Orr used his tremendous skating ability(he was so far ahead of all NHLers at the time in natural skating ability) to "think the game". Gretzky's chessboard on ice(mentally preparing his second play/pass before completing the first) was just beyond what anyone could imagine to "think the game". And I have to agree that Ovechkin for all his seemingly uncontrolled energy game is PROBABLY measuring the opponent's position/system/tendencies every fantastic rush up ice as he "thinks the game".

I wonder how much of this is done consciously? My guess is very little and that might explain why Gretzky hasn't been able to improve the offensive abilities of any of his Coyotes' players. He can't teach what he does instinctively.

[mrusse01 0]

I wonder how much of this is done consciously? My guess is very little and that might explain why Gretzky hasn't been able to improve the offensive abilities of any of his Coyotes' players. He can't teach what he does instinctively.

I don't know if Gretz has been unable to increase the offensive abilities of ANY of the players on the Coyotes; I think he's done a pretty good job with a lot of the young talent there, and Doan in particular has had some of the best seasons of his career.

Gretzky had the best vision, by far in my opinion, of any player in the history of game. It's not going to be easy to translate that once in a lifetime skill set, even marginally, to your normal NHL player.

I do remember hearing an anecdote somewhere (may have been The Hockey News) about how when Gretz started coaching in Phoenix...he was still the best player on the ice in practice.

[Neal 41]

I wonder how much of this is done consciously? My guess is very little and that might explain why Gretzky hasn't been able to improve the offensive abilities of any of his Coyotes' players. He can't teach what he does instinctively.

I don't know if Gretz has been unable to increase the offensive abilities of ANY of the players on the Coyotes; I think he's done a pretty good job with a lot of the young talent there, and Doan in particular has had some of the best seasons of his career.

Gretzky had the best vision, by far in my opinion, of any player in the history of game. It's not going to be easy to translate that once in a lifetime skill set, even marginally, to your normal NHL player.

I do remember hearing an anecdote somewhere (may have been The Hockey News) about how when Gretz started coaching in Phoenix...he was still the best player on the ice in practice.

Any was probably harsh, but short of Doan have any of the Coyotes' players over achieved? Of course that is very hard to judge, but I don't recall any of their good, young players sort of coming out of nowhere to achieve success.

Translating that vision would be tough. Doan may be able to pick up on it more easily because he is an elite player.

[Law Goalie 147]

We should never forget that it was not age but injuries and the clutch-and-grab that forced Gretzky out. He might still be playing today if the game hadn't been ruined for him by cheap-ass strategies and short-sighted tactics. In that respect, he and Ron Wilson are quite similar; the difference is that Wilson's had decades to translate his on-ice talent into coaching, and Gretz is still in relative infancy.

I think he's done a fine job in Phoenix, but mrusse is right: it's not only hard to learn those abstract skills, it's even harder to teach them. My suspicion is that the vast majority of his frustration as a coach comes not from losing but from being unable to communicate what he's seeing. I'm sure the sudden urge to grab someone's gear and take over the powerplay has darkened his brow more than once.

[DarkStar50 679]

One of the guys in the shop reminded me of the story about Gretzky and his dad watching HNIC. The story goes that when Wayne was a little kid watching HNIC, his dad made him sit there with a rink diagram outline. Walter had Wayne draw out through each period as he watched the game where the puck went. Soon enough, the most common places for the puck were evident and Wayne learned to process that info when he was on the ice.

[mrusse01 0]

I think he could have easily played up until the lockout if he wanted to, and was injury free. He put up 90+ points in his 2nd and 3rd last seasons, in the height of clutch and grab hockey...and he still was almost a point a game in his injury shortened final season on a crap Rangers team.

But I mean when you are already considered the greatest of all time, and your records are so insanely out of reach, I can see the logic in just hanging them up if your back is sore. Still wish he laced 'em for for the Leafs at least once in his career.

[dsjunior1388 81]

I think he could have easily played up until the lockout if he wanted to, and was injury free. He put up 90+ points in his 2nd and 3rd last seasons, in the height of clutch and grab hockey...and he still was almost a point a game in his injury shortened final season on a crap Rangers team.

But I mean when you are already considered the greatest of all time, and your records are so insanely out of reach, I can see the logic in just hanging them up if your back is sore. Still wish he laced 'em for for the Leafs at least once in his career.

I think we all felt that way about our teams, I was really mad when Gretz signed with NYR instead of the red wings , having heard all about his love of the Wings and gordie howe when he was a kid. These things make a hell of a lot more sense when you 8 years old.

[Neal 41]

One of the guys in the shop reminded me of the story about Gretzky and his dad watching HNIC. The story goes that when Wayne was a little kid watching HNIC, his dad made him sit there with a rink diagram outline. Walter had Wayne draw out through each period as he watched the game where the puck went. Soon enough, the most common places for the puck were evident and Wayne learned to process that info when he was on the ice.

I tried this years ago when I first heard this story. I learned 2 things.

1- Its not as easy as it sounds to do a good job tracking the puck and getting that down on paper.

2- Either I was doing something wrong or what I was learning from that technique was not what my coach wanted me to do.

[Law Goalie 147]

I'm going with 1 & 2 on that. By and large, coaches think about multi-player units (they rarely think about goalies!) rather than individuals; that kind of analysis doesn't usually figure in.

[Chadd 916]

I'm going with 1 & 2 on that. By and large, coaches think about multi-player units (they rarely think about goalies!) rather than individuals; that kind of analysis doesn't usually figure in.

You can't coach awareness or creativity, so you coach systems. The best offensive players have generally been freelancers and not system guys.

[Neal 41]

It probably didn't help that I played D and had 1% of the talent that Gretzky had while hungover from a 3 day bender.

And I'm talking about Keith, not Wayne.

It was interesting to attempt and it has influenced how I play a little, especially in predicting dump outs. I'd like to do it for several beer league games as I'm sure the patterns are different.

But to bring this back somewhat on topic, I think the D comment makes me lean to Orr even more. A #1 D is on the ice more than your #1 center and can have more influence on a game.

[Shark#81 0]

having seen both careers

for stanley cups: orr.