OHL vs Prep

[QandA 0]

Quote:

Two things can happen in this gap-year: either the player can turn pro, earn a paycheque and forfeit his entire OHL scholarship allowance, or take a definite step backward in his hockey development to finish his degree and play a year in the CIS. Some may say that the CIS is very good hockey, arguably better than the OHL - but show me a scout who would regard that as a positive decision for a future professional player.

Now I might be a bit bias because I attend UNB, who has the best CIS hockey team in Canada. They're undefeated this year in reg. season, and their only loss was at the hands of the Portland Pirates of the AHL, a game where they outshot them. I could guarantee you this team would beat any OHL team. Theres a reason Memorial Cup champs, and NHL draft picks are going to UNB. They have players who are going to the AHL after their terms with the school, these are guys who would of probably spent time in the ECHL. Martin Houle, a Philly draft pick who wandered in the minors is back at UNB to play hockey and go to school. His plans after he earns a degree? Try pro hockey out again. Oh and the NCAA is better hockey than CIS? Go look at UNB's record against NCAA the past couple years.

[epstud74 24]

Do you guys play the WCHA or CCHA in exhibition or what?

[biff44 0]

You can go to an OHL camp or an OHL scouting showcase with no worries IF you follow the following guidelines:

Can only accept free room/board for 2 days. Some say you can go over, some say it is a hard limit. I could NEVER get anything in writing from the NCAA, so why roll those dice? For day 3, put him up in a hotel, or write a check to reimburse the team for his room/board (save the canceled check forever!).

Can not sign a contract with an agent. This is a little touchy, because if you decide to sign with the OHL team, you would like to have an agent to negotiate it (or at least ask questions of). So try to set up a "parental advisor (unpaid)" ahead of time, and IF you sign with the OHL team he can become your agent.

You can not play/be rostered in ANY exhibition game where an full opposing team from the OHL/CHL shows up. You CAN play in all the intersquad games you want (where the two teams on the ice are composed of only players on that one team's tryout roster).

No gifts, payments, cash, etc...obviously.

Personally, I would really want to make sure the team is interested in my kid BEFORE I broke any of the above!

If you get a chance to go to a OHL-wide scouting showcase, DO IT! It is a hoot. A Canadian player would give his eye teeth to get an invite!

The last time I checked (about 5 years ago) the rule was that you could attend camp for less than 48 hours (i.e. 47 hours and 59 minutes) and could not skate in any exhibition games. Once you go past the time limit or play an exhibition game its considered a year playing juniors and you lose one year of NCAA eligibility plus however many games (exhibition or otherwise) you were dressed, regardless of whether or not you saw the ice. The two rules are also independent, meaning even if you are there less than 48 hours, but play a game, that dings your eligibility. So if you played 2 exhibition games you would lose your freshman year of NCAA eligibility and the first two games of your sophomore year. Also, from what I've been told, the NCAA is extremely strict on the 48 hour rule, I've never heard of anyone being dinged literally up to the minute, but I know of one instance where someone was dinged for staying about 30 minutes too long. Finally, if I remember correctly, a game is considered any contest in which two different organizations are on the ice. Meaning even if its an unofficial scrimmage between two teams and not a full fledged exhibition game, its treated like a game.

An interesting fact about the 48 hour rule is that it also applies to players that are invited to the NHL scouting combine. I've seen a couple interviews where palyers mentioned having to be extremely careful of when they entered and exited the hotel to make sure they didn't harm their eligibility.

Are you sure about that "30 minutes over"? That is not what I heard. Give us details so we can research.

[Law Goalie 147]

Quote:

Two things can happen in this gap-year: either the player can turn pro, earn a paycheque and forfeit his entire OHL scholarship allowance, or take a definite step backward in his hockey development to finish his degree and play a year in the CIS. Some may say that the CIS is very good hockey, arguably better than the OHL - but show me a scout who would regard that as a positive decision for a future professional player.

Now I might be a bit bias because I attend UNB, who has the best CIS hockey team in Canada. They're undefeated this year in reg. season, and their only loss was at the hands of the Portland Pirates of the AHL, a game where they outshot them. I could guarantee you this team would beat any OHL team. Theres a reason Memorial Cup champs, and NHL draft picks are going to UNB. They have players who are going to the AHL after their terms with the school, these are guys who would of probably spent time in the ECHL. Martin Houle, a Philly draft pick who wandered in the minors is back at UNB to play hockey and go to school. His plans after he earns a degree? Try pro hockey out again. Oh and the NCAA is better hockey than CIS? Go look at UNB's record against NCAA the past couple years.

Nowhere have I ever argued that the CIS isn't good hockey, ie. that the game on the ice is weak. Please quote my posts to that effect. I wager you can't. At best, you'll find an example of me saying that a hypothetical person might claim the CIS is better or worse hockey than it really is.

In fact, I've pretty clearly said it's much, much better hockey than most people know - and you've supported my argument with UNB. Thank you for that. It's an excellent example. It does, however, rather make light of your claim that I said the CIS is lesser hockey.

And allow me to clarify the rather out-of-context quote you pulled out, and obviously failed to understand: *I count myself* among those who would say that the CIS is better hockey, on average, than the OHL - even though Ontario CIS teams are not generally among the strongest.

What I have said with equal clarity is that there is no current track-record for the CIS placing its student-athletes in NHL-track professional positions - in other words, for developing NHL prospects. If that is changing, and Houle is in the vanguard, that's terrific. Please give him any encouragement you can offer. My impression, however, was that Houle was an eighth-rounder who never seriously regarded by the Flyers as a viable prospect, even in an organisation that was shallow in net.

The NCAA, however, has a current and steadily improving record of placing players in NHL-track jobs. This has led to its gradual recognition as a valid alternative to the classic major junior leagues. The CIS has no such recognition. If you wish to dispute that claim, please provide evidence that the number of players from the CIS who reach the NHL is on par or growing at the same rate as the NCAA.

Does the CIS deserve that recognition? Perhaps. I think it's as foolish for scouts to overlook teams like UNB, Calgary, UofA, etc. as to overlook, say, Anze Kopitar because he's Slovenian or Nino Neiderreider because he's Swiss.

Could more be done to make the CIS a viable development league? Certainly. That could prove tricky, but it could be done. The present problem has, on the surface to do with perception, but there is an uglier problem related to how certain people in the hockey world regard what they see as the necessity of a kid staking his entire future on the game in his early teens. To such people, education is a bet-hedging move that bespeaks a lack of confidence; a view which I regard, and let me be crystalline, as tantamount to the kind of ridiculous anti-intellectualism that blames egg-heads for all the world's ills in the name of 'common sense.'

[mxihockey 0]

Is it possible to get your college money in writing? Say if I was to go up to the Q next season, could I have them sign off that they will pay for me to go to college for 4 years? I'm looking at some advisors and currently weighing my options, I'm 17 so I still have 3 years of eligibility. The idea of having my college paid for is pretty enticing. Also, since I went undrafted in the QMJHL, could I sign in the OHL? The Q holds the rights over all new england players from what I hear..

[QandA 0]

Quote:

Two things can happen in this gap-year: either the player can turn pro, earn a paycheque and forfeit his entire OHL scholarship allowance, or take a definite step backward in his hockey development to finish his degree and play a year in the CIS. Some may say that the CIS is very good hockey, arguably better than the OHL - but show me a scout who would regard that as a positive decision for a future professional player.

Now I might be a bit bias because I attend UNB, who has the best CIS hockey team in Canada. They're undefeated this year in reg. season, and their only loss was at the hands of the Portland Pirates of the AHL, a game where they outshot them. I could guarantee you this team would beat any OHL team. Theres a reason Memorial Cup champs, and NHL draft picks are going to UNB. They have players who are going to the AHL after their terms with the school, these are guys who would of probably spent time in the ECHL. Martin Houle, a Philly draft pick who wandered in the minors is back at UNB to play hockey and go to school. His plans after he earns a degree? Try pro hockey out again. Oh and the NCAA is better hockey than CIS? Go look at UNB's record against NCAA the past couple years.

Nowhere have I ever argued that the CIS isn't good hockey, ie. that the game on the ice is weak. Please quote my posts to that effect. I wager you can't. At best, you'll find an example of me saying that a hypothetical person might claim the CIS is better or worse hockey than it really is.

In fact, I've pretty clearly said it's much, much better hockey than most people know - and you've supported my argument with UNB. Thank you for that. It's an excellent example. It does, however, rather make light of your claim that I said the CIS is lesser hockey.

And allow me to clarify the rather out-of-context quote you pulled out, and obviously failed to understand: *I count myself* among those who would say that the CIS is better hockey, on average, than the OHL - even though Ontario CIS teams are not generally among the strongest.

What I have said with equal clarity is that there is no current track-record for the CIS placing its student-athletes in NHL-track professional positions - in other words, for developing NHL prospects. If that is changing, and Houle is in the vanguard, that's terrific. Please give him any encouragement you can offer. My impression, however, was that Houle was an eighth-rounder who never seriously regarded by the Flyers as a viable prospect, even in an organisation that was shallow in net.

The NCAA, however, has a current and steadily improving record of placing players in NHL-track jobs. This has led to its gradual recognition as a valid alternative to the classic major junior leagues. The CIS has no such recognition. If you wish to dispute that claim, please provide evidence that the number of players from the CIS who reach the NHL is on par or growing at the same rate as the NCAA.

Does the CIS deserve that recognition? Perhaps. I think it's as foolish for scouts to overlook teams like UNB, Calgary, UofA, etc. as to overlook, say, Anze Kopitar because he's Slovenian or Nino Neiderreider because he's Swiss.

Could more be done to make the CIS a viable development league? Certainly. That could prove tricky, but it could be done. The present problem has, on the surface to do with perception, but there is an uglier problem related to how certain people in the hockey world regard what they see as the necessity of a kid staking his entire future on the game in his early teens. To such people, education is a bet-hedging move that bespeaks a lack of confidence; a view which I regard, and let me be crystalline, as tantamount to the kind of ridiculous anti-intellectualism that blames egg-heads for all the world's ills in the name of 'common sense.'

I was just trying to quote what I was replying to, I agree for the most part what you're saying, I was just adding my two cents.

[shooter27 116]

Are you sure about that "30 minutes over"? That is not what I heard. Give us details so we can research.

The details aren't really relevant, but an acquaintance of mine had an issue with the rule about five years ago and it cost him a year of NCAA eligibility (and to be completely honest it may have been one hour over, I don't recall 100%, but I'm almost positive it was closer to 30 minutes than an hour). Like I said, that was five years ago so the NCAA may have laxed a bit, but judging by the quotes I've read about the NHL combine I would imagine they are just as strict with the 48 hours in major junior camps.

Mxi - I would imagine for the top players, the education money could be guaranteed in writing, but that's probably few and far between. Also, as the article implies, you've got a much better shot at getting your education paid for by playing in the USHL or Tier 2 Juniors in Canada and then getting an NCAA scholarship.

[flymonty3 0]

My career is based on working as a full time player agent and advisor players at the junior, collegiate and pro levels. Here is my professional opinion...

If you are a CHL draft pick and have a realistic chance of being an NHL draft pick, or at least a lengthy Major Jr. career, then the CHL route is something to consider. The CIS is the most underrated hockey in North America, and as one poster mentioned, if you are worth a damn in jr. you will get some type of scholarship money on top of what your CHL schooling package provides... Keep in mind that if you should finish your overage year and have not earned an NHL contract, you can try your luck at minor-pro until the end of the calender year you aged out of Jr. For example, i had a player who was one of the best goal scorers in the OHL, but was just a few pieces short of earning an NHL contract. Went to camp at the NHL and AHL levels before signing in the ECHL. once he got to the coast he did well, but not quite good enough to earn an AHL promotion so he accepted a CIS scholarship shortly before Christmas and is actually earning more than his ECHL salary by going to school. He will get his degree, and will try pro again in 4 years. I have also had guys though who were drafted top 3 overall in their bantam draft year, touted as "cant miss" prospects in the NHL, only to fizzle out before their Jr. careers end. Now they are scratching together modest pro careers overseas while guys they were ranked higher than during their draft years are making millions in the NHL....

I also have clients that opted for the college route after dominating leagues like the BCHL or USHL and ended up at major NCAA D.1 programs in the CCHA, WCHA and Hockey East. Some of them go on to have great collegiate careers and start off as NHL prospects, but the vast majority of them end up realizing that most universities over recruit and so the kid who was a super star in junior is stuck on the 4th line in school, producing 5 points a year. Not a big deal because even though those guys who struggle during school are begging to end up in leagues like the ECHL and Central League post graduation, they still have a degree that was free or pretty close to it most of the time... Likewise, I have had players who record over 100 points in their NCAA D1 careers struggle to stick in the SPHL. and guys who struggled in college that turn out to be minor-pro rookies of the year and end up in the AHL.

If your son is a fringe player in the OHL, and turns out to be not quite good enough for the NCAA, he will be struggling to play for a lower end CIS or ACAC school and having to take out student loans or ask for family contribution as he wont be getting much contribution from a schools athletic department. This is kind of the equivalent of committing to play NCAA D.3.... Your shot at stardom is gone, now you are trying to be optimistic that you will have a shot in the ECHL, CHL or IHL once school is done and that might not even be realistic...

Worst case scenario is by 21 he is stuck in the beer leagues because he blew his NCAA eligibility as a 16 year old and never amounted to much in tier II, so he couldn't get into the CIS. Hell, even club hockey would restrict him from playing collegiately in the US as they are getting strict about amateurism rules... This isn't the end of the world for most people, but this is a major blow to most kids...

There are so many different factors that go in to making a decision like this and to be honest, only you and your son's advisors and support group know what he is honestly capable. If you feel he is physically mature enough to handle the grind of an OHL season then he might be ready for it. If you think he has some growing up to do still, prep might not bad. Or as someone else even suggested, something like the OJHL or good jr. B in Ontario for a season while he decides what HE really wants to do can be beneficial. As NHL central scouting has proven over the past few years, if the player is good enough, they will find him. A showcase tournament will not harm his eligibility though and I would really explore both options thoroughly as the CHL and NCAA are both excellent choices for furthering a hockey career, but the challenge lies in determining what the best fit for your son may be.

[shooter27 116]

There are so many different factors that go in to making a decision like this and to be honest, only you and your son's advisors and support group know what he is honestly capable. If you feel he is physically mature enough to handle the grind of an OHL season then he might be ready for it. If you think he has some growing up to do still, prep might not bad. Or as someone else even suggested, something like the OJHL or good jr. B in Ontario for a season while he decides what HE really wants to do can be beneficial. As NHL central scouting has proven over the past few years, if the player is good enough, they will find him. A showcase tournament will not harm his eligibility though and I would really explore both options thoroughly as the CHL and NCAA are both excellent choices for furthering a hockey career, but the challenge lies in determining what the best fit for your son may be.

This is why I hate the fact that kids have to make that decision at 15, 16 years old. Its just so hard at that age to evaluate all the potential risks and contingencies when the kid just wants to play hockey at the highest possible level. If these leagues (the CHL and NCAA) really existed to do what is absolutely best for the kid then there would be some better system than forcing this decision on kids that young. I don't claim to have an answer, as you know the NCAA will never open its arms to kids with a lot of "professional" CHL experience, but there has to be a better system than what is currently in place.

[biff44 0]

Is it possible to get your college money in writing? Say if I was to go up to the Q next season, could I have them sign off that they will pay for me to go to college for 4 years? I'm looking at some advisors and currently weighing my options, I'm 17 so I still have 3 years of eligibility. The idea of having my college paid for is pretty enticing. Also, since I went undrafted in the QMJHL, could I sign in the OHL? The Q holds the rights over all new england players from what I hear..

Anything is possible, just get it written into the contract. But realize that CHL teams, with a few exceptions, are not all that wealthy. They do not hand out long term commitments like a "guaranteed 4 years of college" unless you are really and truly an exceptional prospect. Also "4 years of college" means different things to different people! 4 years of Canadian college is pretty affordable! 4 years of Boston University will cost you the equivalent of a small house!

It is much more realistic that they will offer you some sort of deal where you get so much money toward college (some from the league, some from the team itself) based on how many years you actually play. There can be other rules, so read the fine print carefully (the Q requires you to take and pass a certain number of courses durnign the season, for example), amongst other rules. And although I have seen no-trade provisions in these contracts, I have not seen any no-cut provisions. So if you are the top star, doing great, and you tear your ACL or get 4 concussions in a row and get cut...you are stuck in a bad place. Remember, OHL is semi-pro hockey--that means a lot of miles on the old body by the end of the season.

It is interesting that the American players are a lot more interested in getting their college schooling covered than the Canadian players are. If you are the only American on the team, they may not be used to negotiating for college scholarships.

Flymonty3 has excellent points...ponder them well.

There are so many different factors that go in to making a decision like this and to be honest, only you and your son's advisors and support group know what he is honestly capable. If you feel he is physically mature enough to handle the grind of an OHL season then he might be ready for it. If you think he has some growing up to do still, prep might not bad. Or as someone else even suggested, something like the OJHL or good jr. B in Ontario for a season while he decides what HE really wants to do can be beneficial. As NHL central scouting has proven over the past few years, if the player is good enough, they will find him. A showcase tournament will not harm his eligibility though and I would really explore both options thoroughly as the CHL and NCAA are both excellent choices for furthering a hockey career, but the challenge lies in determining what the best fit for your son may be.

This is why I hate the fact that kids have to make that decision at 15, 16 years old. Its just so hard at that age to evaluate all the potential risks and contingencies when the kid just wants to play hockey at the highest possible level. If these leagues (the CHL and NCAA) really existed to do what is absolutely best for the kid then there would be some better system than forcing this decision on kids that young. I don't claim to have an answer, as you know the NCAA will never open its arms to kids with a lot of "professional" CHL experience, but there has to be a better system than what is currently in place.

Yep, it is a real wake up call. You need a lot of advice, and carefully lay out the facts. You really need someone you can trust, like an NHL team scout, actually saying "you have a good chance to make it" before throwing those dice as an American player. As a parent, expect to have a gruelling month of trying to get a decision out of your kid! Ultimately, you will have doubts and some lack of information, but have to make a decision anyway. Once it is made, it is made, and you make the best of the situation. CHL hockey is really high level, the training is great, and the experience...even if you do not ultimately make it, is really special.

[chippa13 1844]

I think for an American kid, the smart route is to play a year of US juniors first to see how you fare before you make any jump to the CHL and lose out on US college hockey.

[shooter27 116]

Yep, it is a real wake up call. You need a lot of advice, and carefully lay out the facts. You really need someone you can trust, like an NHL team scout, actually saying "you have a good chance to make it" before throwing those dice as an American player. As a parent, expect to have a gruelling month of trying to get a decision out of your kid! Ultimately, you will have doubts and some lack of information, but have to make a decision anyway. Once it is made, it is made, and you make the best of the situation. CHL hockey is really high level, the training is great, and the experience...even if you do not ultimately make it, is really special.

Thats why I think most kids, American or Canadian, would be better served playing in the USHL or Tier 2 Juniors for at least a year before making the CHL decision. You get to play hockey at a very close level to the CHL (some would say that the USHL is almost on par, not me personally, but some people) while still maintaining your options down the road so that you get to add a little maturity before making such a life-altering decision. Obviously, there are some kids that are so good that they are going to be high draft picks and have NHL careers so education becomes secondary. But, for the majority of kids, I think that being able to use your hockey skills to "pay" for your education via an NCAA scholarship is such an attractive option. I mean its not like we're back in the '70s when the NCAA didn't product NHL caliber players, today they do produce high caliber players, very regularly. And, if NHL scouts have proven anything over the years, its if you're good enough, they'll find you.

Its hard for me to really speak negatively of the CHL because it is such a special experience, but I always wonder what happens to those kids that went that route, never made it in the pros, and at 20 find themselves more or less out of the game with no education. Like I said earlier, there has to be a way for education and the CHL to coexist, I'm not sure what it is, but so many kids would benefit so much from being able to have that education when they're done with the game that the powers that be really should find a way to make it work.