Toe-Pulls

[automorph 0]

without a doubt....anybody with some "pro" would lightup ANY mens league...never mind the show......it is too easy for them with no body contact

[rebel96 0]

Most of the "lower skill" guys in the NHL may not have the skills of a top talent but they make themselves effective in other ways. I'm sure, on a beer league standard, a team of NHL goons would look like Oves Sids and Genos from our point of view.

Take Chris Kunitz for example (not a goon but serves to prove my point). Since his move to Pittsburgh he said in the media many times that he plays best when he keeps his game simple....straight lines, get the puck, pass the puck, go to the net. It's not his skill that puts him in the NHL. It's his work ethic and how, despite not being the most skilled guy, he has found a way to be effective.

[dontdumpdangle 0]

Most of the "lower skill" guys in the NHL may not have the skills of a top talent but they make themselves effective in other ways. I'm sure, on a beer league standard, a team of NHL goons would look like Oves Sids and Genos from our point of view.

Take Chris Kunitz for example (not a goon but serves to prove my point). Since his move to Pittsburgh he said in the media many times that he plays best when he keeps his game simple....straight lines, get the puck, pass the puck, go to the net. It's not his skill that puts him in the NHL. It's his work ethic and how, despite not being the most skilled guy, he has found a way to be effective.

1. Any one who played junior would make a mens league team look foolish, its MENS LEAGUE!

2. That spezza dangle on souray is filthy, but souray played it bad, he literally came to a full stop on one of the most offensively gifted players in the league and tried to make a play on him.

3. Brashear is actually kind of good when he plays his game and isn't trying to fight someone. He rarely gets the puck stripped or just straight loses it.

4. Chris Kunitz is dirty, he has a ton of skill.

5. I guarentee that 7/10 I would walk hal gill. Before you answer that back, watch a pens game and focus on hal gill.

6. Toe drags are decent when getting around a poke check but they shouldn't allow you "in theory" to ever get around someone if you always play the body. I'm not saying that i dont get beat, i just dont get beat by toe drags. Its like playing basket ball defense. You can make all the moves and dance all you want in front of me, but you're not going anywhere. At the end of the day, you're either going left or right. The toe drag is a "dance move".

[mrusse01 0]

5. I guarentee that 7/10 I would walk hal gill. Before you answer that back, watch a pens game and focus on hal gill.

That is 100% incorrect. Without having any idea of the level of hockey you played, I would bet my life that you are not getting around Hal Gill 7 times out of 10 in a one on one situation. There isn't a player in the world that could beat Gill 7 times out of 10.

[DoubleT96 0]

5. I guarentee that 7/10 I would walk hal gill. Before you answer that back, watch a pens game and focus on hal gill.

Wow.... not even 2/10...7/10 :o

[DoubleT96 0]

2. That spezza dangle on souray is filthy, but souray played it bad, he literally came to a full stop on one of the most offensively gifted players in the league and tried to make a play on him.

What I don't get is that when you talk about defending toe drags you talk as if you know the thing is coming; like the guy is coming one-on-one with you and he's like hey....I plan and dragging right here so be ready for it. Then your like, okay...I'm ready, go ahead and try it. It's so easy to dissect a play you saw on TV, and with hindsight in mind. If Spezza says, i'm going to drag right here, Souray likely doesn't go for the hip check.

With NHL speed, you have maybe 2 seconds to determine your defensive strategy, anticipate what the O-man might do, figure out what the O-man is actually doing, then try to adjust in order to stop it....You just don't angle him up with the boards and skate backwards with him.

I guess what I'm saying is what I had mentioned earlier: Drags are not always used as a player's first choice move going in one on one, I think they are in response to what the D-man does. Spezza's move (not so much a toe drag; more of sliding the puck underneath Souray's stick) was a reaction to Souray's defensive attempt, not the other way around. Spezza didn't attempt the move first in order to beat Souray; he waited to see if Souray would show his hand first.

Here's a great example:

I think Mironov looked up and thought Adams was going to pass the puck in front so he went to play the puck and stop the pass; but Adams reacted with a toe drag and got a nasty backhand on net. If Mironov knows he going to attempt a drag there, he likely plays the body instead. Hindsight makes it so much easier to critique it though. Hockey is fast game at any competitive level and I just dont agree with blanket statements that, "there's a 100% proper way to play a toe drag such that you won't get beat"; let alone if your playing against someone that has significant skill (college, juniors, etc.) Even if I do know a toe drag is coming, I'm not likely to stop a kid in Juniors 7/10 times and i've been playing for 20 years. But hey if your that good, maybe you'll win the Hobey Baker in a few years, or you'll light it up in Hersey before playing at the Verizon Center..Good luck with everything.

[automorph 0]

Chris Neil would OWN mens league........ :D

[dontdumpdangle 0]

2. That spezza dangle on souray is filthy, but souray played it bad, he literally came to a full stop on one of the most offensively gifted players in the league and tried to make a play on him.

Here's a great example:

I think Mironov looked up and thought Adams was going to pass the puck in front so he went to play the puck and stop the pass; but Adams reacted with a toe drag and got a nasty backhand on net. If Mironov knows he going to attempt a drag there, he likely plays the body instead. Hindsight makes it so much easier to critique it though. Hockey is fast game at any competitive level and I just dont agree with blanket statements that, "there's a 100% proper way to play a toe drag such that you won't get beat"; let alone if your playing against someone that has significant skill (college, juniors, etc.) Even if I do know a toe drag is coming, I'm not likely to stop a kid in Juniors 7/10 times and i've been playing for 20 years. But hey if your that good, maybe you'll win the Hobey Baker in a few years, or you'll light it up in Hersey before playing at the Verizon Center..Good luck with everything.

The D in that clip was puck watching the whole way. His head was down looking at the puck, he didn't even consider playing the body. He committed 100% to the pass, and you just cant do that. Whats worse is that he turns his back to adams. That back hand was sick though. Oh and it looks like theres some hal gill fans out there. Sorry to disapoint you but he is terrible. Lastly, the Spezza goal isn't even a toe drag now that i've watched it again and souray played it horribly.

Chris Neil would OWN mens league........ :D

Chris Neil is legit

[rebel96 0]

This arguement is paradoxical and ludicrous claims are being made.

You say the toe drag is ineffective because the defenceman should play the body. (Technically shouldn't the d-man play the body on any sort of move the forward is making in close proximity?)

And yet you say that you could walk around hal gill 7/10 times, in effect, that gill would be caught puck-watching 7 times and play the body 3 times. I must say I find this ratio very strange for someone selected by his coaches to play around 15-17 mins per game, and be an integral part of the penalty kill.

I doubt that even the best, most-utterly talented, dingle-dangle, dipsy-doodle players in the NHL could get around the worst d-man in the NHL 7 out of 10 times in a game.

You should be drafted if this is the case and you are as brilliant as you claim to be.

[DoubleT96 0]

This arguement is paradoxical and ludicrous claims are being made.

LMAO!!!! I'm an attorney, and busted out laughing in my office just now when I read that line!!!! Nonetheless, I concur!!!!

EDIT:

. . .And yet you say that you could walk around hal gill 7/10 times, in effect, that gill would be caught puck-watching 7 times and play the body 3 times. I must say I find this ratio very strange for someone selected by his coaches to play around 15-17 mins per game, and be an integral part of the penalty kill.

Just read this post again, I love the breakdown of the ratio here and the use of Hal Gill an exhibit, i.e., "gill would be caught puck-watching 7 times and play the body 3 times." Classic!

I have to then assume that the 7/10 times are clean walks that make Gill look completely silly. Out of the remaining 3, 2/10 you allllmost get by, but you clip his skate due to an error on your part, and the remaining 1/10, hal gill makes a lucky play and strips you. Completely out of the question is hal gill dropping you like Slava Kozlov.

[dontdumpdangle 0]

This arguement is paradoxical and ludicrous claims are being made.

You say the toe drag is ineffective because the defenceman should play the body. (Technically shouldn't the d-man play the body on any sort of move the forward is making in close proximity?)

And yet you say that you could walk around hal gill 7/10 times, in effect, that gill would be caught puck-watching 7 times and play the body 3 times.

You're assuming that Hal Gill is half way decent at hockey and that he posses the ability to make good reads/plays. Also, we're talking about the toe drag. If you play the body on a toe drag, its over. There are plenty of other good moves that can be made where playing the body will be made difficult. Again, the toe drag is a dance move, you dont go anywhere. If you toe drag and the d doesn't bite, you're now on your backhand and in a worse off position to make a play than you were before you made the move. Also by saying i would beat hal gill im not saying that im that good, im saying that he's that bad.

[rebel96 0]

I'd say if I came up against hal gill, and tried to get around him, the puck would fly off my stick 7 out of 10 times cos I was shitting my pants.

The only move I can think of that makes playing the body more difficult is deking wide out of range and using speed to beat the defenceman.

Toe drags are as effective as any other move. There's times when they'll work, times when they won't. If you sell it right it'll work.

[DoubleT96 0]

If you toe drag and the d doesn't bite, you're now on your backhand and in a worse off position to make a play than you were before you made the move.

Again, as a defenseman, is your defensive strategy to skate backwards 100% of the time, keeping the o-man in front of you, you not making any move toward the puck/body, and then allowing the o-man to get close enough to the goal to pick off a soup can??? Many guys don't use toe-drags as their initial move. They'll use it as a response to what the D-man does first. A guy's coming down on you full speed: you obviously don't poke check b/c it's been reiterated that you play the body, so you either skate backwards with the guy and let him get close enough where he wires pucks on your goalie all game, or you try standing him up, in which you have made the first move and the O-guy reacts. At this point, maybe he uses a toe-drag (but if he does i guess he's not getting by you) but he hasn't used it in an attempt to get you to bite, you've already made your move. Otherwise, after you've decided to stand him up, he goes with a different move <insert your move here>

[rebel96 0]

Wait a minute, hold the phone!!!

You say you're not even good but that Hal Gill is bad??

You should call Ray Shero and tell him his scouts have made a big mistake. Here's the number....412-642-1800.

[dontdumpdangle 0]

If you toe drag and the d doesn't bite, you're now on your backhand and in a worse off position to make a play than you were before you made the move.

Again, as a defenseman, is your defensive strategy to skate backwards 100% of the time, keeping the o-man in front of you, you not making any move toward the puck/body, and then allowing the o-man to get close enough to the goal to pick off a soup can??? Many guys don't use toe-drags as their initial move. They'll use it as a response to what the D-man does first.

One of the most basic theorys in hockey is make your opponent make the first move. I've been taugh that you play passive until you have support. When you play D, you force the man to the out side by controlling your speed so that the only option is the out side. I feel like these are basic things for any one who has played at a mid-high level of hockey.

Wait a minute, hold the phone!!!

You say you're not even good but that Hal Gill is bad??

You should call Ray Shero and tell him his scouts have made a big mistake. Here's the number....412-642-1800.

I dont know your hockey background, but if you played good hockey, you'd be able to see. Please just watch a penguins game and focus in on hal gill

[DoubleT96 0]

If you toe drag and the d doesn't bite, you're now on your backhand and in a worse off position to make a play than you were before you made the move.

Again, as a defenseman, is your defensive strategy to skate backwards 100% of the time, keeping the o-man in front of you, you not making any move toward the puck/body, and then allowing the o-man to get close enough to the goal to pick off a soup can??? Many guys don't use toe-drags as their initial move. They'll use it as a response to what the D-man does first.

One of the most basic theorys in hockey is make your opponent make the first move. I've been taugh that you play passive until you have support. When you play D, you force the man to the out side by controlling your speed so that the only option is the out side. I feel like these are basic things for any one who has played at a mid-high level of hockey.

Then I'm sure anyone with a nice shot would love to play against you because if your going to let them skate into the hashmarks without making any move to that point, they'll practice their wrist shot accuracy all day...your goalie might have something to say about it though.

[dontdumpdangle 0]

If you toe drag and the d doesn't bite, you're now on your backhand and in a worse off position to make a play than you were before you made the move.

Again, as a defenseman, is your defensive strategy to skate backwards 100% of the time, keeping the o-man in front of you, you not making any move toward the puck/body, and then allowing the o-man to get close enough to the goal to pick off a soup can??? Many guys don't use toe-drags as their initial move. They'll use it as a response to what the D-man does first.

One of the most basic theorys in hockey is make your opponent make the first move. I've been taugh that you play passive until you have support. When you play D, you force the man to the out side by controlling your speed so that the only option is the out side. I feel like these are basic things for any one who has played at a mid-high level of hockey.

Then I'm sure anyone with a nice shot would love to play against you because if your going to let them skate into the hashmarks without making any move to that point, they'll practice their wrist shot accuracy all day...your goalie might have something to say about it though.

Wow, YOU FORCE THEM TO THE OUTSIDE. Have you ever heard of the being broken down into the big ice and the small ice? The small ice is the ice to the outside of the faceoff dots. If my goalie cant stop a shot from the small ice, then he wont be with our team long and if you can score from there than either you have a real talent or you play in a piss poor league

[rebel96 0]

I dont know your hockey background, but if you played good hockey, you'd be able to see. Please just watch a penguins game and focus in on hal gill

I watch as much hockey as possible and i'd say i've watched most of the penguins games in the last few months. I don't see what you're eluding to. I see Gill make good clearances on the penalty kill and block quite a few shots. Maybe people get by him now and again but I certainly would not say he doesn't belong in this league.

I'm not saying I don't agree that gill isn't at the lower end of the league defensively. But the claim that he doesn't belong in the NHL is ridiculous. Scouts etc. are paid good money to sort the good from the bad. The bruins wouldn't have picked him up if he wasn't good enough to play, the leafs wouldn't have picked him up if they saw he was putting up poor performances in Boston and the penguins wouldn't have traded for him if they thought he wouldn't make a good addition to their team.

Furthermore, if you're forcing someone to go wide, that's a perfect opportunity to make a toe drag move back towards the centre of the ice for a shot because the defender is already going the way you want him to (i.e. away from where you want to go) and its much more difficult for a d-man to change direction quickly than it is for a forward.

[dontdumpdangle 0]

I dont know your hockey background, but if you played good hockey, you'd be able to see. Please just watch a penguins game and focus in on hal gill

I watch as much hockey as possible and i'd say i've watched most of the penguins games in the last few months. I don't see what you're eluding to. I see Gill make good clearances on the penalty kill and block quite a few shots. Maybe people get by him now and again but I certainly would not say he doesn't belong in this league.

I'm not saying I don't agree that gill isn't at the lower end of the league defensively. But the claim that he doesn't belong in the NHL is ridiculous. Scouts etc. are paid good money to sort the good from the bad. The bruins wouldn't have picked him up if he wasn't good enough to play, the leafs wouldn't have picked him up if they saw he was putting up poor performances in Boston and the penguins wouldn't have traded for him if they thought he wouldn't make a good addition to their team.

Furthermore, if you're forcing someone to go wide, that's a perfect opportunity to make a toe drag move back towards the centre of the ice for a shot because the defender is already going the way you want him to (i.e. away from where you want to go) and its much more difficult for a d-man to change direction quickly than it is for a forward.

As far as the scouts go. How many 1st rounders never made it? Better yet, how many first overall picks have never made it? More than you would think. Also, Gill was a very effective defenseman under the old rules but in todays nhl he doesn't match up. This would be interesting, tell me who Hal Gill is better than?

You force the player wide and into the corner if you dont have support. You dont pivot (where the toe drag will work) and face him unless you have support. If you pivot and he drags and you have support than your supporting back checker will take him.

[rebel96 0]

Good point about the 1st rounders and draft picks. But that's more of a chance the scouts take on how players will develop when they come into the league. If a guy's managed to stay up out of the minors then he must be effective in some way shape or form.

who is hal gill better than? are we talking scoring? probably nobody.....chris chelios? lol (I love cheli really)

One on ones? Penalty kill? Puck moving? Better is a very general word in the context of this argument....

[Guitarmy 0]

So what's your name dontdump? When can we expect to see you in the NHL? Since you can beat an NHL defenseman 7 out of 10 times and all.

[interpathway 9]

I believe this thread has reached its locking point. Long ago.

[rebel96 0]

i agree.

[phunky_monkey 6]

If you toe drag and the d doesn't bite, you're now on your backhand and in a worse off position to make a play than you were before you made the move.

Again, as a defenseman, is your defensive strategy to skate backwards 100% of the time, keeping the o-man in front of you, you not making any move toward the puck/body, and then allowing the o-man to get close enough to the goal to pick off a soup can??? Many guys don't use toe-drags as their initial move. They'll use it as a response to what the D-man does first.

One of the most basic theorys in hockey is make your opponent make the first move. I've been taugh that you play passive until you have support. When you play D, you force the man to the out side by controlling your speed so that the only option is the out side. I feel like these are basic things for any one who has played at a mid-high level of hockey.

Then I'm sure anyone with a nice shot would love to play against you because if your going to let them skate into the hashmarks without making any move to that point, they'll practice their wrist shot accuracy all day...your goalie might have something to say about it though.

I disagree with dumpdangle on the whole toe drag being a useless move point, but the point made here is a valid one. As a defenseman you control your speed and push the player to the outside. The offensive player will make a move on you as long as you have your speed correct. If you don't control your speed then you become a screen for the goalie as you've said, but if you do then they must make a move.

And a good point was made above, all moves can be useful if they're solved correctly. I've played Defense and Center in my time. As a forward I find the toe drag quite useful as I'm big, and have a long reach so can use a toe drag to go around and then cut to the net/go behind the net and make a play. It's a basic, decent move in my opinion. As a defenseman I don't often get fooled by them as I take the body, even in non-checking leagues (no need to check). So it can work for some, and not for others. If it works, use it, if it doesn't, don't!

[DoubleT96 0]

Well, im surprised this thread went as far as it did. I thought there were some good thoughts. Some feel they're can be Busch league, depending on the use, league and competition you play in. At least, however, they're not as Busch as a pulling a spinning michigan (lax move) on a breakaway....