The Messier Project

[kklinder 0]

http://metrohockey.blogspot.com/2010/01/in...rk-messier.html

Friend of mine got a chance to interview Mark

Nice interview.

I have the helmet, btw, and love it.

[tony1233 0]

I have the black one with the white vents on layway... I was wondering if there was a way to paint the vents black or if I could order some replacement vents for the helmet ?

[goaliekilr 0]

I have noticed there ad copy has changed in magazine's and had heard that the degree of protection from the cells has been proven wrong, has anyone else heard this?

[Mike - MN 1]

I have noticed there ad copy has changed in magazine's and had heard that the degree of protection from the cells has been proven wrong, has anyone else heard this?

Personally I think the Cascade helmet is an atrocious scam that is praying on people's fears of concussions to sell an almost useless product. For anyone who has actually seen the helmet and peeled back the very thin comfort liner, the plastic egg-crate "cushioning" is underneath. I love their little video on the website showing the plastic cylinders compressing to absorb energy. Has anyone tried collapsing even one of those tubes? Do you have any idea how much force is required to deflect one tube let alone an array of them???

The problem with most "high end" helmets is that they are designed to absorb very high energy impacts. The EPP foam in the other manufacturers helmets are similar to the foam in bike and motorcycle helmets. This foam is meant to deform to absorb the blow of a crash and hence require replacement after it's done it's job. Just try and compress the EPP foam in the CCM vector 10 helmet, it's hard stuff, just like a bike helmet. And just like a bike helmet when you take that huge wicked spill or get hit by a car it will protect your melon from a very large impact. The question you have to ask yourself is do you want a helmet that will protect you almost exclusively in the hardest hit possible, or do you want a helmet that will deflect much more easily to protect you from the multiple jarring hits you experience in hockey?? You would be surprised how little force it takes to knock your brain into your skull and give you a concussion. Most EPP foam is not designed to prevent concussions, it's to prevent massive head trauma. Look in a football helmet, sure some have the hard EPP foam, but they ALL have a liner of softer rubbery Vinyl Nitrile foam and/or an air bladder to absorb frequent low energy impacts. Ideally a hockey helmet would have both a softer rubbery foam for lower energy absorption and a higher density foam for the one big collision but they would need to be as large as football helmets with the current technology and try selling that to the public.

For more information on helmet foams: http://www.bhsi.org/foam.htm

If you're really trying to minimize the frequency of jarring hits to your brain, try something like the Bauer 5100 with 3 densities rubber-type foam which obviously still passes the HECC helmet impact requrements for minimum impact energy absorption http://www.hecc.net/prodtest.html or the Bauer 8500 which does have two different densities of EPP foam, and a little bit of VN foam in the temples (the red stuff).

[Jarick 5]

The difference between bike helmets and hockey helmets is they use different foams. The bike helmets use EPS which collapses and absorbs energy. The hockey helmets use EPP which don't collapse as much, they seem more to disperse energy (combined with a hard outer shell). The Cascade helmets use air pockets that would attempt to slow the impact of the brain against the skull, which is what causes concussions to my understanding.

What I would imagine is that they wouldn't do as good a job with direct impact (i.e. a stick or puck to the head) but should do better against concussions (impact of brain against skull). The best helmet would do both, but that would be very large.

[Mike - MN 1]

The difference between bike helmets and hockey helmets is they use different foams. The bike helmets use EPS which collapses and absorbs energy. The hockey helmets use EPP which don't collapse as much, they seem more to disperse energy (combined with a hard outer shell). The Cascade helmets use air pockets that would attempt to slow the impact of the brain against the skull, which is what causes concussions to my understanding.

What I would imagine is that they wouldn't do as good a job with direct impact (i.e. a stick or puck to the head) but should do better against concussions (impact of brain against skull). The best helmet would do both, but that would be very large.

Yes, the EPP in hockey helmets does have more give than the EPS in bike helmets (although the amount of give varies by manufacturer, for example there are two hardness's of EPP in the Bauer 8500) but still not as much give as the VN foams.

The Cascade helmets don't use air pockets in any way. The plastic tubes are not sealed at all. All the energy is absorbed by compressing the plastic tubes themselves, which like I mentioned takes quite a lot of force.

[Jarick 5]

Good point. But shouldn't it require a lot of force to compress them? Concussion causing hits aren't love taps...but I'm an economist and not a physicist so I'm talking out of turn.

[Chadd 916]

Good point. But shouldn't it require a lot of force to compress them? Concussion causing hits aren't love taps...but I'm an economist and not a physicist so I'm talking out of turn.

It depends on the head and the hit. My accident at work wasn't a huge impact, yet I still have symptoms almost six months later.

[Mike - MN 1]

Good point. But shouldn't it require a lot of force to compress them? Concussion causing hits aren't love taps...but I'm an economist and not a physicist so I'm talking out of turn.

Concussions occur at a relatively low number of g's. There is no set rule but around 50-60 g's (peak linear acceleration) some people start to experience a concussion. Almost everyone will experience a concussion when exposed to 100 g's. In order to be certified, all hockey helmet's must follow ASTM testing standard F1045. The standard dictates a pass/fail 300 g limit with an impact energy of 51 Joules. In unscientific terms, you want the "softest" helmet that still passes this (fairly extreme) test.

Just for reference, if you hit a brick wall in a car going 25 mph with no seatbelt and bounced your head off the windshield, you will experience around 100 g.

If anyone has some data on what Cascade's "26% Better!" or their even more ridiculous "140% better!!" means I'd love to see it. Correlating your helmet's ability to withstand multiple high energy blows (well above that of the concussion threshold) to it preventing concussions is a false assumption.

[mnpucker 33]

I am pretty sure I fall into the target market for this product. I have 2 boys both about to enter checking hockey, one this year and one next. Further, they play on 2 teams summer and winter. Both programs require specific colors for helmets so guess what? 4 helmets 2 for each kid.....ugh if I want to make sure they have the best head protection on the market.

I want them to be safe first and foremost.

I have been researching the both the S19 and M11 helmets as best I can. I think it is obvious that the helmets differ from each other in almost every way. I can understand the science of each. This week I as able to watch a lot of high level hockey and in some instances both teams on the ice were sporting the M11. Unfortunately I saw several kids get absolutely ROCKED while they were wearing the M11. In one instance I watched a boarding situation, the kid got ran from behind and was violently driven head first into the glass. The hit came from behind the shoulder the players body turned so the impact to the head occurred on the side of the helmet to the glass. I did not think the kid would get up, his body ricocheted off the glass but that was after his head was the lead contact point. He popped up and seemed fine.

I think the proof will ultimately be in the pudding between the S19 and M11, one thing is for certain, helmets like the S11 (currently own 3 of them if anyone needs them) are not nearly as protective as either of the new models.

[fatwabbit 93]

I was lucky enough to buy one from a member here that was barely used... At first I thought that the shell was a little soft, but then again, the one on my vector V08 was similar.

Weight: First impression is that its a pretty light helmet and pairing it with a Itech Ti cage, it is frigging light

Fit: Getting the helmet to fit was REALLY easy with the straps at the back. The padding internally was good as well, and compressed well when you forced it. I've got a roundish head, and there doesnt seem to have any negative space (if you get what I mean). Helmet feels snug, yet does not compress your temples so much that you get headaches.

Protection: So far, I've been lucky that I havent been hit hard, but have been confident enough to scrap with others along the boards. The Seven Technology doesnt seem like a gimmic, but fingers crossed I dont have to try it out.

Overall: I'm really liking this helmet very much, by far the best I've had (compared to intake, vector v8, CCM 692). I would buy another in a heartbeat if needed... the silver that I've got was a fluke, as it happend to match our jerseys perfectly.

[jsykes 35]

The science behind the idea of the helmet is good and sound. As a matter of fact, its been used for many years in the auto racing industry in the form of tire walls.

Rows of tires put up in front of hard barriers allow for soft compressable material to help decelerate the car at a manageable rate before hitting the hard barrier. They then bounce back into shape and are ready to use again. High tech versions are now in place at Daytona, Indy and other ovals in the form of the 'safer barrier' which uses soft rubbery, compressable material between the cement wall and the outer surface. Again, softens the blow and bounces back into shape.

The first thing I thought when I saw this helmet was the idea of a bunch of little tire walls between your head and hard shell/impact. It makes sense in theory.

[duch 0]

I've had my M-11 for more than two months now and I can't be happier. Been hit into the boards head first a couple of times and have had no ill effects other than a slightly sore neck. Helmet has taken the hits and just is a bit scuffed on the outer shell. I've also fallen backwards onto my head onto the ice and the helmet took the shock incredilbly well and I hardly felt a thing on the inside. In my opionion the shock tests have proven the scientific theories behind this helmet are sound. As far as ventilation, this helmet is no worse than any other helmet I've ever had.(but not as good as the Mission Intake I had a couple of years back) It is better than any VN helmet I've ever owned though.So far no one has even mentioned that the M-11 looks out of place with all the other brands worn in my league. In fact, I've seen two other players in my league with new M-11's and the verdict from them is also very good for comfort and ventilation.So I guess I can say that Cascade has addressed the cosmetic issue with their helmet quite well. On a scale of ten I would rate this helmet a nine and a half. My only negative on this helmet is it feels a bit bulkier than my Easton helmet but that could just be because the Easton is a lower profile helmet design. I would highly recommend this helmet to any player looking for serious head protection. As I previously mentioned in my post in January this helmet fits the Itech Titanium or RBK/Jofa 480 cages on it very well. There shouldn't be any issues with the most popular half shields as well. So there you have it, my review or the Cascade M-11 helmet.

[t1tan 19]

Seems like a nice helmet, I always wore their lacrosse helmets. I was given a free medium which fits decent but I prefer the fit of my 9500 so I haven't bothered trying it on the ice, just going to sell it.

[mug25 2]

Hmmm, glad I read this article. Was about to buy another RBK Helmet/Cage combo but now considering the M11...maybe in a few months when I start leagues again :)

The helmet looks sick too.

PS: Please ask Mark what he thinks about Glen Sather fudging up the Rangers. I'm sure he wants to throw up in his mouth after he led the team to it's first cup in forever. (Yes, I am a disgruntled Rangers fan).

[Hermans 9]

I have used it twice now, no comparision to the CCM 682 lid I previously used. Solid helmet.

it's a stealth helmet in all black if you black out the white M11 decals. Solid in all black! black is the new black.

Interesting thing from the Wild website, they interviewed Brent Burns (who's recovering from his second concussion in 12 months). He is trying the M11 helmet, as well as Sykora (who just returned from concussion) and Bouchard (who is still unable to do anything at all, but he will be trying it). He noted the helmet was very comfortable until you start skating and moving, then it pinches the back of your head and the pumping blood gives you a headache. Because of that, he might not use it, and Sykora might switch back.

there are two round "rivets" at the back of the helmet and there is only the standard padding (thin) between them and the back of the head. As you loosen or tighten the helmet these rivets get moved in tighter or loosen up against the back of the head. I just added more foam padding with two sided tape.

Cascade should add more foam in that area. Once you do, it eliminates the pinch. The good thing is that you can adjust the sizing on the fly so if it's late in a game or you've put in on too tight or recently cut your hair, etc you can in about 5 seconds, and without taking of the helment, resize it.

[mnpucker 33]

it's a stealth helmet in all black if you black out the white M11 decals. Solid in all black! black is the new black.

there are two round "rivets" at the back of the helmet and there is only the standard padding (thin) between them and the back of the head. As you loosen or tighten the helmet these rivets get moved in tighter or loosen up against the back of the head. I just added more foam padding with two sided tape.

Cascade should add more foam in that area. Once you do, it eliminates the pinch. The good thing is that you can adjust the sizing on the fly so if it's late in a game or you've put in on too tight or recently cut your hair, etc you can in about 5 seconds, and without taking of the helment, resize it.

Dead on. I bought two of them. One for me and one for my son. The newest release has a single layer (color) foam in the rear of the helmet. The previous version had gray foam over black. The new version also has 2 deep Puckers where the two rivets you refer to are. The old version is a smooth unpuckered surface. My helmet Adult Large is the older style, just happened to be the one I grabbed off the shelf. It is comfortable. My sons Adult Small has the new foam and it appears he will not be able to wear it. The pain is very bad and it seems it is worst toward the end of practice. Great eh? I buy a helmet for $130 had to buy a $50 mask because it was the only one that fit my kids head and my LHS says I am SOL....Oh check that he gave me the reps card so I could deal with it my self. SUCH A TOOL this guy the entire story is a joke and if you are reading this I WILL NEVER SET FOOT IN YOUR STORE AGAIN.

I assume the foam change occurred because it is easier and cheaper to manufacture.

Can we start a thread titled, "Stupid crap LHS employees/owners say?"

[raganblink 82]

Helmet is used... its a non warranty issue..... I commend this lhs cuz everything you've said theyve done is deadon. Granted maybe they could have got with their rep for you, but still I don't see how you can be pissed at ur lhs from what you've said. They're not going to take the helmet back since its used.

You say there is pain at beginning and end, so maybe instead of buying this helmet you shoulda bought one that fitted for him better. Again, this is only from what ive hard u say on this.

[mnpucker 33]

Helmet is used... its a non warranty issue..... I commend this lhs cuz everything you've said theyve done is deadon. Granted maybe they could have got with their rep for you, but still I don't see how you can be pissed at ur lhs from what you've said. They're not going to take the helmet back since its used.

You say there is pain at beginning and end, so maybe instead of buying this helmet you shoulda bought one that fitted for him better. Again, this is only from what ive hard u say on this.

I did not explain the entire story....don't need to. The helmets I bought were BRAND NEW not used. Did I say they were used or is that just what you wanted to use to discredit my experience? My point was the LHS still has over stock from last year and I bought one (AL). When I showed the LHS guy the difference between the two helmets (not in a confrontational way mind you) he said there was absolutely no difference and that the previous years version looked like "SH^#%T" IN HIS opinion. I bought the helmets from him a couple weeks earlier. We adjusted my sons helmet as he played as well as before and after games and practices ( I am his coach so I am on the bench to do so). In order to get the helmet to "Feel" comfortable after a period of time playing, it needs to be loosened to the point that I am pretty sure the protective factor of the M11 would be minimized.

The pain does not exist any other time than deep into a game or practice, like previous poster mentioned. At that point I see him head down massaging the back of his head with a painful look on his face. The store fitted the helmet for my son, claimed it was a perfect fit. In fact that employee that fitted us is great, one of the best around and should run the store. The problem is with the "NEW" padding that the manufacturer is using. As the helmet is worn it compresses and the 2 - 7 technology pieces in the rear of the helmet begin to protrude through the pad.

My helmet, new also, bought the same day as the small, has the prior years padding. Cosmetically and tacitly feels way different. No pain, more padding, no protruding.

Go to your shelf and check out any helmets that have been around your store awhile.....I promise you will see what I am tailing about. Last years adult smalls are pretty much sold out everywhere because i assume more of those sizes were purchased for kids safety. There are more carry over AL and AM's on the shelves so start looking for those.

You will see the difference and when you do, think about the comment the LHS guy said above....."No difference and look like SH&^T....the older version not only looks better all around but has more protection.

by the way my AL is great.

[duch 0]

It's been over nine months with the M-11 helmet now and still I'm extremely satisfied with my purchase. Protection is top notch, comfort is also. No wear issues to report. No one in my leagues or in pickup have mentioned it looks out of place from any other brand. One guy in Thursday night pickup noticed I had it and even asked me how it was for protection and how much I paid for it.

To date this helmet has been everything it was advertised to be. I really can't say there is even ventilation issues because I've noticed very little difference from my Easton helmet I also have. I even gave my Reebok 6K to my brother in law because I like this helmet so much and the 6K was comparatively lighter. The only negative I have to report is the grommets that hold on my cage, weren't that well anchored into the outer shell on the forehead section,when I installed my Itech Titanium cage. It toke a little manoevering to get them to bite properly when I was trying to turn in the screws to mount it. Then again they are easy to replace so it's not really a helmet issue. This is a really good helmet. I highly recommend it.

[Chadd 916]

The pain does not exist any other time than deep into a game or practice, like previous poster mentioned. At that point I see him head down massaging the back of his head with a painful look on his face. The store fitted the helmet for my son, claimed it was a perfect fit. In fact that employee that fitted us is great, one of the best around and should run the store. The problem is with the "NEW" padding that the manufacturer is using. As the helmet is worn it compresses and the 2 - 7 technology pieces in the rear of the helmet begin to protrude through the pad.

So, the only way this problem is exposed is after extended use and after the padding compresses? I'm not sure how the shop, and not the manufacturer, is responsible for that in any way. It sounds like the LHS guy sympathized with your issue and gave you the rep number in hopes that the company could do something for you. I will tell you from my experience that you are far more likely to get a positive result if you deal with the manufacturer than if the shop does. Unfortunately, shops just can't afford to refund every purchase that ends up not being a perfect fit for people in the long run.

I, and I would venture most other people on this site, have purchased gear that ends up being replaced because of fit or comfort issues. It's an unfortunate part of the hockey playing experience. The upside from your experience is that other people now know of the problem and can bear that in mind when they consider purchasing the product. We also know that most manufacturers monitor this site for feedback like this. Hopefully, this will lead to them making changes in the padding that will prevent the issue in future models.

[fatwabbit 93]

Whatever the case, I think the helmet saved my bucket ... tried to clear the puck in a game, and ended up head first into the boards... thought that I was in shit trouble, but other than some sore muscles I was good.

[mnpucker 33]

So, the only way this problem is exposed is after extended use and after the padding compresses? I'm not sure how the shop, and not the manufacturer, is responsible for that in any way. It sounds like the LHS guy sympathized with your issue and gave you the rep number in hopes that the company could do something for you. I will tell you from my experience that you are far more likely to get a positive result if you deal with the manufacturer than if the shop does. Unfortunately, shops just can't afford to refund every purchase that ends up not being a perfect fit for people in the long run.

I, and I would venture most other people on this site, have purchased gear that ends up being replaced because of fit or comfort issues. It's an unfortunate part of the hockey playing experience. The upside from your experience is that other people now know of the problem and can bear that in mind when they consider purchasing the product. We also know that most manufacturers monitor this site for feedback like this. Hopefully, this will lead to them making changes in the padding that will prevent the issue in future models.

I forgot this is the website that does not like criticism of LHS guys. Would you ever tell a customer that something he bought form you just 2 weeks prior, looked Like SH&T? How do you think that makes a person feel.

If you "professionally"fitted a person for a helmet and it ended up not being right would you admit it? Say, "yeah I see the problem, I feel the plastics circles protruding through the padding, maybe we can get some additional padding for you that will help, and if that does not help I will get you the numb roof the rep" .Or would you do what he did and just say I don't see it I cant feel it....Trust me you would see and feel exactly what I am talking about.

I think it is important to note that there were no other customers in his store at the time...

It is what it is I guess, I love my M11. I just wish the guy I dealt with would not have been there because so many other guys at his place that are extremely helpful and would have followed a different path.

[Hermans 9]

It's been over nine months with the M-11 helmet now and still I'm extremely satisfied with my purchase. Protection is top notch, comfort is also. No wear issues to report. No one in my leagues or in pickup have mentioned it looks out of place from any other brand. One guy in Thursday night pickup noticed I had it and even asked me how it was for protection and how much I paid for it.

To date this helmet has been everything it was advertised to be. I really can't say there is even ventilation issues because I've noticed very little difference from my Easton helmet I also have. I even gave my Reebok 6K to my brother in law because I like this helmet so much and the 6K was comparatively lighter. The only negative I have to report is the grommets that hold on my cage, weren't that well anchored into the outer shell on the forehead section,when I installed my Itech Titanium cage. It toke a little manoevering to get them to bite properly when I was trying to turn in the screws to mount it. Then again they are easy to replace so it's not really a helmet issue. This is a really good helmet. I highly recommend it.

yup, no one notices it when I play either. I did take a sharpie and dark out any decals but no one makes a comment on the looks or thinks it looks odd or strange, even without visible logos.

[Chadd 916]

I forgot this is the website that does not like criticism of LHS guys. Would you ever tell a customer that something he bought form you just 2 weeks prior, looked Like SH&T? How do you think that makes a person feel.

If you "professionally"fitted a person for a helmet and it ended up not being right would you admit it? Say, "yeah I see the problem, I feel the plastics circles protruding through the padding, maybe we can get some additional padding for you that will help, and if that does not help I will get you the numb roof the rep" .Or would you do what he did and just say I don't see it I cant feel it....Trust me you would see and feel exactly what I am talking about.

I think it is important to note that there were no other customers in his store at the time...

It is what it is I guess, I love my M11. I just wish the guy I dealt with would not have been there because so many other guys at his place that are extremely helpful and would have followed a different path.

If I thought the guy in the shop was wrong, I would agree with you. I've done that a number of times in the past, but only when they appeared to do something that was wrong.

The fitting wasn't a problem by your own account. The problem was the result of a flawed product design according to your posts. I don't know what the Cascade policy is on warranty replacement, as I never sold them, so I can't comment on whether he handled it properly or not. From what I see he at did more than just tell you to "call the customer service number and give that a shot."

Putting other types of padding in the helmet would void the certification and open me up to legal liability, I would never offer to do that for anyone. Any shop that does that without some type of certification from a manufacturer is insane for doing it in this legal climate. From what you have said, replacing it with a new version of the same padding wouldn't resolve the problem, simply postpone it.