NZL Ice Blacks make history

[chippa13 1844]

I don't understand how people are comparing this to fighting, or a jersey retirement as stated above.

Apples and oranges folks.

Because a jersey retirement is a tradition in hockey. When someone is having their jersey retired, the other team has no say in the matter. They have to stand there for 15-20 minutes while the ceremony is taking place. It's the same as people arguing that the haka is unfair because only one team get to do it.

I just don't have an issue with the haka, I also don't have an issue with the way the Irish team (in hockey) or the French and Argentenians (in rugby) reacted to it.

The Haka has been done by New Zealand rugby teams for 100 or more years, and also by their footy team on occasion and their basketball team. It's a part of the culture, and I don't begrudge it to them to do it before their events.

The same way that the anthem is sung over here before every single sporting event. Why? It's tradition. At home, the anthem is reserved for international matches between countries.

Do you think any of the European players care about the anthems of America or Canada (I'm not say this to be disrespectful to either by the way)? No, but they are part of the pre-game tradition, so they are respected and endured.

I don't see why the haka is a big deal

The jersey retirement is a horrible example. For one, the opposition is usually given the option to watch from the bench or remain in the room until after the ceremony. For another, teams don't retire a jersey before EVERY game.

What I'm finding interesting; New Zealanders perform an indigenous rite before each match and its cool and hip, if an American team did the same thing there would be hell to pay.

My arguement never stood on the side of it shouldn't be done because it takes up time. Whatever. It shouldn't be done because its a special allowance for one team to intimidate another. with a war dance, including

-

gestures.

you say "special allowance" I say 120 year old tradition

The 120 year tradition can be done before they hit the field and make the other teams wait.

So change the tradition is what you are saying?

I've been in Landsdowne Road and witnessed the Haka by the All Blacks first hand. They also did it at my home town rugby club (one of the All Blacks first captains Dave Gallaher is from my home area, Rathmelton) when they came to commemorate the life and times of Gallaher.

It is spectacular to witness as a fan, I don't care who you support.

Why can't teams do jersey retirements at 6.40 so the hockey games can get started at the normal time instead of letting the teams do the warm ups, then doing the ceremony. It puts the players at a disadvantage because they now wait 20-30 minutes after warmups to start playing. The Haka takes about 90 seconds, is it really that much of an inconvenience?

Have you ever seen it? Are you ever likely to see it? Is anyone you know ever going to be remotely affected by it? If not, why is it of concern to you?

I've seen it, and would love to see it again.

By the way, for those interested, here is the recap of the allblacks visit to Letterkenny (my hometown).

My granny ran the post office (a side room in her home) in Ballymaleel for 45 years. It's half way between Letterkenny and Rathmelton. The rugby club is about 3/4 mile from her house, beside a place called the Silver Tassie which do a great steak, if you are ever in the area

http://www.davegallaher.com/AllBlack_Visit_Dave_Gallaher.htm

First, they want to make sure that the fans have time to fill the stadium, as well as fitting into the scheduled television/radio start times for the broadcasts. Second, both teams spend the time the same so there is no disadvantage from the one ceremony that a team watches maybe once every 5-10 seasons.

[Allsmokenopancake 0]

What I'm finding interesting; New Zealanders perform an indigenous rite before each match and its cool and hip, if an American team did the same thing there would be hell to pay.

That is a strawman argument. If an American team had been doing it for 100 years, it would be accepted as part of the tradition of the team, much like the haka is for the All Blacks. You are extrapolating global perceptions of the current American political perspective and applying it blindly to the nation as a whole, not assuming the tradition would be enshrined as it is currently with the All Blacks.

In spite of what the media report here, most of the world can separate the American People from the Government. I've had several friends here travel abroad and were surprised that they were treated so well by other countries, from Sweden to Turkey to Germany.

[chippa13 1844]

Nice job of missing the point. There would be hell to pay IN the US because somebody somewhere would take offense and usually not someone who is a member of said group being honored/imitated. My statement wasn't a political one, well, unless you count the folks in the US love putting the political in politically correct.

[Allsmokenopancake 0]

Nice job of missing the point. There would be hell to pay IN the US because somebody somewhere would take offense and usually not someone who is a member of said group being honored/imitated. My statement wasn't a political one, well, unless you count the folks in the US love putting the political in politically correct.

I didn't miss the point. I said if the US had been performing the same indigenous pre-game ceremony/celebration for over 100 years, there would be no issues. Unless of course it was racist or something, but if it was a tradition of long standing, it wouldn't be controversial.

[chippa13 1844]

Come on, you can't honestly believe that? Look at the number of universities who have had to change something as simple as a nickname because it may have been offensive. And we're talking such innocent names as "Chiefs" and the like. Imagine if there was a wardance or harvest ritual tossed in what the uproar would have been.

[eric42434224 1]

Haka being acceptable simply because it is a tradition does not work. That is the point that is being missed here. You cant force the haka on anyone just because you have done it for 100 years.

Now if it is accepted, and even anticipated and enjoyed, by the fans, opposing team, and facility, then by all means haka your brains out.

The point some are attempting to get accross is that it may not be acceptable in areas outside of that particular region. The fact it is a tradition does not automatically make it appropriate.

Nice job of missing the point. There would be hell to pay IN the US because somebody somewhere would take offense and usually not someone who is a member of said group being honored/imitated. My statement wasn't a political one, well, unless you count the folks in the US love putting the political in politically correct.

I didn't miss the point. I said if the US had been performing the same indigenous pre-game ceremony/celebration for over 100 years, there would be no issues. Unless of course it was racist or something, but if it was a tradition of long standing, it wouldn't be controversial.

I think you are missing the larger point. It being a tradition, even one that has lasted 100 years, does not rubber stamp it as an acceptable behavoir in any and all scenarios.

[Allsmokenopancake 0]

Haka being acceptable simply because it is a tradition does not work. That is the point that is being missed here. You cant force the haka on anyone just because you have done it for 100 years.

Now if it is accepted, and even anticipated and enjoyed, by the fans, opposing team, and facility, then by all means haka your brains out.

The point some are attempting to get accross is that it may not be acceptable in areas outside of that particular region. The fact it is a tradition does not automatically make it appropriate.

The Irish turning their back on it, or the Irish/french stepping up to the line was not because they didn't agree with it, it was to show they were not intimidated by it.

As I said, I've seen in in person back home in Ireland, and it electrified the crowd. We didn't turn and support the all blacks after seeing it, but it was just great.

I don't know anyone, or any venue, apart from MSH that has had an issue with it to date

[eric42434224 1]

Haka being acceptable simply because it is a tradition does not work. That is the point that is being missed here. You cant force the haka on anyone just because you have done it for 100 years.

Now if it is accepted, and even anticipated and enjoyed, by the fans, opposing team, and facility, then by all means haka your brains out.

The point some are attempting to get accross is that it may not be acceptable in areas outside of that particular region. The fact it is a tradition does not automatically make it appropriate.

The Irish turning their back on it, or the Irish/french stepping up to the line was not because they didn't agree with it, it was to show they were not intimidated by it.

As I said, I've seen in in person back home in Ireland, and it electrified the crowd. We didn't turn and support the all blacks after seeing it, but it was just great.

I don't know anyone, or any venue, apart from MSH that has had an issue with it to date

Again you are missing the point (or at least the point I am trying to make).

I have no problem with anyone doing the Haka, or even doing the Macarena, if it is going to be an accepted behavoir in that particular scenario.

If the Irish accepted it, fantastic.

I have a problem with several posters using the fact that it is a tradition as some sort of end-all justification of it being acceptable. And then to go on huge posts trying to defend and prove what a great and long tradition it is. We get it. It is a great and long standing tradition. No argument. But it being a tradition is very much a moot point. There are tons of traditions, but being a tradition does not automatically make it acceptable.

Is it acceptable in hockey games on New Zealand or Ireland? Not sure, but it seems that it absolutely is. Would it be considered acceptable in my league game after warm-ups in Florida, US? Not on your life.

It isnt that you "don't know anyone, or any venue, apart from MSH that has had an issue with it to date". It is that it being a tradition does not make it acceptable all the time. As you can see by some responses here....it would not be acceptable. It being a tradition is not a real valid justification.

[Aussie Joe 0]

Eric your league in Florida isn't the international stage. Therefore isn't privy to the same clutural differences and acceptances, one would expect from an international tournament. Ice Hockey isn't mainstream sport here or in NZ. Therefore some cultural differences unique to the "Hockey wildernesses" have sprung up. Just because North America started hockey, doesn't mean they get to dictate to the world stage what is and isn't acceptable before or during hockey games.

This post started off as a celebration for the Kiwi's victory over the Aussies. I see the tangent and some people's maniacal rants, but get over it. They are starting a new tradition and whether you agree with it or not doesn't mean squat, because the kiwis will keep performing the Haka before hockey games, and good on them for doing so.

Congrats to the Kiwi side, although I'm sure the Aussies will get you the next chance. ;)

[IniNew 53]

Eric your league in Florida isn't the international stage. Therefore isn't privy to the same clutural differences and acceptances, one would expect from an international tournament. Ice Hockey isn't mainstream sport here or in NZ. Therefore some cultural differences unique to the "Hockey wildernesses" have sprung up. Just because North America started hockey, doesn't mean they get to dictate to the world stage what is and isn't acceptable before or during hockey games.

This post started off as a celebration for the Kiwi's victory over the Aussies. I see the tangent and some people's maniacal rants, but get over it. They are starting a new tradition and whether you agree with it or not doesn't mean squat, because the kiwis will keep performing the Haka before hockey games, and good on them for doing so.

Congrats to the Kiwi side, although I'm sure the Aussies will get you the next chance. ;)

Sure enough we are not to decide what is or isn't acceptable on the international stage, but you are? The Haka was never performed on the ice, thus making this "long standing tradition" argument some of you have a stupid point.

One team should not be granted a special time slot to perform a war dance meant to intimidate the other team... and yes, it is for intimidation as much as motivation for the people performing it.

[Aussie Joe 0]

Granted, I'm not to decide what is and isn't acceptable. But the New Zealand National team is for them. And obviously the ruling body, IIHF doesn't have an issue either. Funnily enough they DO have the final say.

[Darkbyte 0]

The haka is cool.

For the inline oceana tournament, it wasnt performed before any games. It was done during the medal ceramony as a display.

But then again, NZ were the only team who came to play Australia this year .... everyone else cried economic crisis and didnt come :_(

Well done NZ Ice!

[Allsmokenopancake 0]

Sure enough we are not to decide what is or isn't acceptable on the international stage, but you are? The Haka was never performed on the ice, thus making this "long standing tradition" argument some of you have a stupid point.

One team should not be granted a special time slot to perform a war dance meant to intimidate the other team... and yes, it is for intimidation as much as motivation for the people performing it.

The Haka has been performed by the New Zealand international teams in Rugby, Soccer, Basketball and other sports, that it is being performed in hockey is an extension of the tradition already exercised by the other national teams, so the long standing tradition is not a stupid point.

[eric42434224 1]

Eric your league in Florida isn't the international stage. Therefore isn't privy to the same clutural differences and acceptances, one would expect from an international tournament. Ice Hockey isn't mainstream sport here or in NZ. Therefore some cultural differences unique to the "Hockey wildernesses" have sprung up. Just because North America started hockey, doesn't mean they get to dictate to the world stage what is and isn't acceptable before or during hockey games.

If you understood my post as it was intended, I am basically saying the same thing.

I said if it is accepted in your part of the world, then that is fantastic. It wouldnt fly here. I never even hinted that I thought my opinion should be the standard for the "international stage". Using the justification that it is a tradition is moot in any area of the world that doesnt recognize or accept that type of behavoir in those situations. I dont speak for North America for sure, but I hardly think anyone on this board is trying to push a North American agenda for hockey ettiquite.....that seems a bit dramatic to me.

Anyway, it is an interesting topic (haka) nonetheless.

[Allsmokenopancake 0]

If you understood my post as it was intended, I am basically saying the same thing.

I said if it is accepted in your part of the world, then that is fantastic. It wouldnt fly here. I never even hinted that I thought my opinion should be the standard for the "international stage". Using the justification that it is a tradition is moot in any area of the world that doesnt recognize or accept that type of behavoir in those situations. I dont speak for North America for sure, but I hardly think anyone on this board is trying to push a North American agenda for hockey ettiquite.....that seems a bit dramatic to me.

Anyway, it is an interesting topic (haka) nonetheless.

2 things

First, regarding the bolded part, you have absolutely no way of knowing that, as it hasn't been done here. 6 or 7 people on a hockey message board is hardly the pulse of the nation.

As far as it being accepted in "your part of the world", it's been accepted in most parts, Europe, South Pacific, Africa, Asia, South America (argentina specifically) where it has been performed many times. I see no reason that it wouldn't receive the same acceptance in north america

[IniNew 53]

If you understood my post as it was intended, I am basically saying the same thing.

I said if it is accepted in your part of the world, then that is fantastic. It wouldnt fly here. I never even hinted that I thought my opinion should be the standard for the "international stage". Using the justification that it is a tradition is moot in any area of the world that doesnt recognize or accept that type of behavoir in those situations. I dont speak for North America for sure, but I hardly think anyone on this board is trying to push a North American agenda for hockey ettiquite.....that seems a bit dramatic to me.

Anyway, it is an interesting topic (haka) nonetheless.

2 things

First, regarding the bolded part, you have absolutely no way of knowing that, as it hasn't been done here. 6 or 7 people on a hockey message board is hardly the pulse of the nation.

As far as it being accepted in "your part of the world", it's been accepted in most parts, Europe, South Pacific, Africa, Asia, South America (argentina specifically) where it has been performed many times. I see no reason that it wouldn't receive the same acceptance in north america

There was a High School here in Texas. Trinity High School. They were primarily made up of Tongans. They did

before each football game. Three seasons into doing this dance, the UIL outlawed it on the grounds of it being used as an intimidation technique.

[rebel96 0]

Perhaps because they weren't a national team from NZ or the pacific Islands?....just a group of guys representing another team.

[eric42434224 1]

First, regarding the bolded part, you have absolutely no way of knowing that, as it hasn't been done here. 6 or 7 people on a hockey message board is hardly the pulse of the nation.

I certainly know how I feel, and can reasonably draw conclusions about how the majority of my friends would feel as well. If it was to be done as a novelty and special considerations made ahead of time, I would have no issue with it. If another team did a dance after the warmup, that most certainly would not fly.

And you really should try not to insist that a few MSH members think they speak for a "nation". It has already been said that we do not, nor said we do.

As far as it being accepted in "your part of the world", it's been accepted in most parts, Europe, South Pacific, Africa, Asia, South America (argentina specifically) where it has been performed many times. I see no reason that it wouldn't receive the same acceptance in north america

You may not, but I, and many others certainly dont accept it. Not sure why that is a problem for you.

It seems like a neat tradition. I am sure it would be OK here if it was done with special permission, and agreed upon by the rink and other team, as kind of a side show attraction. No problem there.

We dont have to agree here you know. :)

[rebel96 0]

I'm sure at every sporting event where the haka is performed special consideration are made for it, i.e. time is allotted, and the opposing team is approached about it.

I would agree that if they just decided to do it willy nilly after the warm-up there would be controversey and for the most part the opposing team would not take any notice and continue doing whatever they were doing.

[eric42434224 1]

I'm sure at every sporting event where the haka is performed special consideration are made for it, i.e. time is allotted, and the opposing team is approached about it.

I would agree that if they just decided to do it willy nilly after the warm-up there would be controversey and for the most part the opposing team would not take any notice and continue doing whatever they were doing.

That is almost exactly what I was saying....you just said it in a much more concise manner. I agree that the first time they did it, most here would shrug it off, and would likely not make a big issue of it as they would be taken pretty much off guard. But if it became a regular occurrence, then you would likely see complaints. The league would surely have something to say about it being performed after their allotted warm up time. I think a team can have a tea party if they want, just as long as it is within their allotted warm-up time.

Im going to have to check this Haka thing out. I havent been able to access it at work, and seem to forget about it when I get home.

[rebel96 0]

watch the one I posted back along. greatest haka I have ever seen.

[quick_dry 1]

Its funny you say it has no place on the ice. I've represented NZ many times before (for inline hockey) and teams were very disappointing that didn't do the Haka.

given I've been on the other side of the red line, I can say without a doubt that it must've been the NZ team that was disappointed - it wasn't us (surely you agree that the hours long opening ceremony with about 4 different haka versions before oceanias in Aukland was wayyyy to much?).

The All-Blacks doing haka is tradition, but it feels a bit 'played out' when every time NZ appear for anything we have a haka.

It was posted on the IIHF website a few days ago it means it is the Australian team. The first time in HISTORY we beat Aussie and you have to go and say that? real class mate! Don't try take that away from em :P

Well, it is closer to an 'Australian' team than originally planned - it was originally just the Newcastle Northstars team IIRC, but we rescheduled a couple of games and because we weren't making playoffs Bears had a few players jump into the team to NZ and miss our final game. From talking to the guys it was a good series, and definitely a plus for Cory to go out on a high (IIRC he is retiring from the team?). But skooled is correct in what he posted.

Hopefully next year they can schedule a proper break so there isn't the scheduling conflicts with AIHL.

eric42434224: it is usually only done at the start of a tournament - the Rugby Union matches are a bit different because they're test matches that happen only every so often, it isn't like they're doing the haka every second night. the schedule is nothing like an NBA/NHL team's.

[monoclub 5]

It is a part of New Zealand culture and should be taken as such. Personally I would feel honoured to be able to perform the Haka as a way to share something of my countries culture and history as much as I would appreciate having it performed for me either as a competitor or spectator.

When nations get together for sporting events it is as much a sharing of culture and friendship as it is competition.

[chippa13 1844]

It is a part of New Zealand culture and should be taken as such. Personally I would feel honoured to be able to perform the Haka as a way to share something of my countries culture and history as much as I would appreciate having it performed for me either as a competitor or spectator.

When nations get together for sporting events it is as much a sharing of culture and friendship as it is competition.

Fine, then the Polish team can dance a polka before games. See, kind of ridiculous when put in those terms, isn't it? No other nation's sports teams do a ceremonial dance before a match, what makes New Zealanders so special?

[Allsmokenopancake 0]

It is a part of New Zealand culture and should be taken as such. Personally I would feel honoured to be able to perform the Haka as a way to share something of my countries culture and history as much as I would appreciate having it performed for me either as a competitor or spectator.

When nations get together for sporting events it is as much a sharing of culture and friendship as it is competition.

Fine, then the Polish team can dance a polka before games. See, kind of ridiculous when put in those terms, isn't it? No other nation's sports teams do a ceremonial dance before a match, what makes New Zealanders so special?

No one has complained about them doing it. When they do, it can be addressed at that stage. I don't see what the big deal is.

I've been in attendance live back at home for this, and it's something I looked forward to. IF the teams they are facing object, or if the grounds hosting the event objects, then I can see where it would be an issue. Thusfar, this has not happened.

And the Polka is originally a Czech dance so the Poles might not be the best people to do it