"New" Type of Tight Turn?

[Katzenjammer 1]

Hi guys,

I was re-watching Sean Skinner's skating DVDs again the other night - and something caught my attention which caused me a bit of confusion.

First, he says a correct tight turn distributes weight so that 60% of the weight is on one's inside/forward skate. Since I was a little tyke, I've been taught the exact opposite - which to me makes sense just in terms of physical/centripetal forces that most of the force is applied to the outside/rear foot. Does Skinner's advice seem sensible to anyone else?

Second, he introduces what he calls a "new" turn. He implies that "research" shows this is faster and more efficient, etc. Here again, he is mostly on the inside skate, but now his inside foot does a kind of outside edge scraping stop; only, as he slows down, rather than coming to a full stop, he then crosses over with the outside skate to head in the opposite direction.

Actually, that's how he describes it. What I actually see when I watch is that both his skates are scraping the ice as he enters the turn, then his inside/front skate increasingly grips the ice, the grip allowing some push-off while your outside/rear skate crosses over.

Anyone know where he gets this sort of thing from?

I have my doubts about how more efficient/fast this method is. Anyone care to comment?

~katz

[Chadd 916]

In theory, more weight on the inside leg/foot will make it easier to lift the outside leg and cross over coming out of the turn. The problem is that it is harder to hold your speed on the tighter turn that the inside leg has to make.

[chk hrd 164]

IMO it allows you to come out of the turn harder becuase your inside leg is compressed allowing for more extention where the outside leg is already more extended and your second stride is already set up for the cross over where you can get more power out of the outside leg.

[Katzenjammer 1]

In theory, more weight on the inside leg/foot will make it easier to lift the outside leg and cross over coming out of the turn. The problem is that it is harder to hold your speed on the tighter turn that the inside leg has to make.

Exactly - that's why my way of going about this is to put most of the force on the outside leg, and once past the deepest part of the turn, quickly transfer weight to the inside leg, making possible a crossover with the outside leg as I come out of the turn. I think the key is to keep your legs from spreading too much, so the weight transfer can happen rapidly.

IMO it allows you to come out of the turn harder becuase your inside leg is compressed allowing for more extention where the outside leg is already more extended and your second stride is already set up for the cross over where you can get more power out of the outside leg.

Yeah, I agree - see above though.

None of this, however, explains why its faster/more efficient to do a kind of sliding stop (as described in first post) into the turn, and then step over. Unless of course you're entering the turn too fast to hold your edges. Skinner presented this as a new kind of "pro"turn. I do see skate instructors like Besa doing this. Here's an example of what I think he means - it's hard to see, but there's a few of them starting at 58 seconds:

[ktang 34]

They were called "Gretzky turns" when we were learning them (in the '80s). But, Gretzky also had 7' radii blade profiles on his skates.

In one of the NHL all-star weekend skills competitions, Nash vs Alfredsson in the puck-control slalom, Nash beat Alfredsson by a wide margin with these types of turns. Alfreddson was doing the traditional pure gliding turns the OP was describing. You could see Nash increasing his lead substantially each time he went around a cone.

[Katzenjammer 1]

They were called "Gretzky turns" when we were learning them (in the '80s). But, Gretzky also had 7' radii blade profiles on his skates.

In one of the NHL all-star weekend skills competitions, Nash vs Alfredsson in the puck-control slalom, Nash beat Alfredsson by a wide margin with these types of turns. Alfreddson was doing the traditional pure gliding turns the OP was describing. You could see Nash increasing his lead substantially each time he went around a cone.

Thanks! - do you have any clips of the slalom comp or the turn as used by anyone?

[evor1 6]

uh basically they are just scrubbing off speed before the turn. allows you to enter the turn faster. if you skate full speed and try and do a tight turn you are going to lose your edge. this just allows you to skate into the turn faster, scrub off some speed, then complete the turn.

[ktang 34]

uh basically they are just scrubbing off speed before the turn. allows you to enter the turn faster. if you skate full speed and try and do a tight turn you are going to lose your edge. this just allows you to skate into the turn faster, scrub off some speed, then complete the turn.

The braking action of the inside skate also pulls your centre of gravity through the turn quicker.

I can't find any vids of Nash vs Alfredsson. But I recall older telecasts with Gretzky doing these turns to delay along the left wing boards.

[Jarick 5]

I wish I had that kind of control over my skating! I always "cheat" and do those Gretzky turns in the video above or else I will do a quick spin on the heels.

[danno25nh 3]

Working with some of the guys from the local CHL team this summer, they all did this kind of turn. They explain that the extra speed comes at the exit of the turn.

They did scrub off a little speed but the acceleration was amazing. They were also really tight around the cones. I couldn't hold an edge that tight until I got the technique down.

[Katzenjammer 1]

Working with some of the guys from the local CHL team this summer, they all did this kind of turn. They explain that the extra speed comes at the exit of the turn.

They did scrub off a little speed but the acceleration was amazing. They were also really tight around the cones. I couldn't hold an edge that tight until I got the technique down.

Thanks for that - would you/can you describe the technique and how you arrived at "getting it?"

[interpathway 9]

Thanks for that - would you/can you describe the technique and how you arrived at "getting it?"

Start heading into turns with speed and try to make them. If you don't dig in your edges you'll fall over from too much speed and too tight a turn. Just start by heading into the turn, stopping, and exiting the turn. As you get better, you will retain more speed while digging in less. Eventually, depending on your own weight, speed, and edge control, you will master the technique and be able to employ it in game situations.

[ktang 34]

A progression to try:

(i) Do some T-stops and normal glide turns;

(ii) Get some speed and glide in a hockey posture, then lift the "inside" leg and rotate it outwards. Put the blade in front of the other skate, with the inside skate edging on the front outside part of the blade to pull you into a wide turn. This turn will be a decreasing-radius turn;

(iii) Same as (ii) but use the braking action to pull you into tighter and tigher decreasing-radius turns;

(iv) Same as (iii) but, after you have turned about 135 degrees, push your hips and "outside" leg around your "inside" leg until both skates are gliding to finish the turn; and

(v) Same as (iv) but add a strong crossover as soon as the "inside" skate is gliding.

Once you have the 180-degree hairpin turn down, 90-degree turns etc. are easy; you just need to vary when you push your hips and "outside" leg around your "inside" leg and start the glide.

[Katzenjammer 1]

A progression to try:

(i) Do some T-stops and normal glide turns;

(ii) Get some speed and glide in a hockey posture, then lift the "inside" leg and rotate it outwards. Put the blade in front of the other skate, with the inside skate edging on the front outside part of the blade to pull you into a wide turn. This turn will be a decreasing-radius turn;

(iii) Same as (ii) but use the braking action to pull you into tighter and tigher decreasing-radius turns;

(iv) Same as (iii) but, after you have turned about 135 degrees, push your hips and "outside" leg around your "inside" leg until both skates are gliding to finish the turn; and

(v) Same as (iv) but add a strong crossover as soon as the "inside" skate is gliding.

Once you have the 180-degree hairpin turn down, 90-degree turns etc. are easy; you just need to vary when you push your hips and "outside" leg around your "inside" leg and start the glide.

Thanks - that was a great help! I'm almost there :)

[ktang 34]

Thanks - that was a great help! I'm almost there :)

Once you're there, then another progression is to do it without putting one foot in front of the other. I just converted from forward to D, and forwards that can do that can't be read. They always get time and space to assess the situation and set up dangerous plays. I hate them.