Hockey Now As Popular as Basketball

[Chadd 916]

Are you playing games as a moderator? I could have sworn you wrote "hate!"

Nope, but Digdug did use it in a reply referencing my comments.

[MyBoxersSayJoe 133]

$250 OPS sticks....$800 skates. The rich kiddies parents still fork ove the $$$.

Overall, between ice time and equipment, hockey's not nearly as accessible of a sport as baseball, soccer, football, basketball, etc. It's one of the most exciting, intense and skilled games to watch/play, though. And it depends on the parents. I live in an affluent area. Some parents buy just what's good enough, some drop money on top of the line equipment, doesn't seem consistent amongst skill level.

[Chadd 916]

It's one of the most exciting, intense and skilled games to watch/play, though.

For you that may be the case. But the pace also makes it very difficult to for people to learn the sport. A barrier like that is never a good thing when you want to grow the game.

[DarkStar50 679]

That's like saying the cars go too fast in auto racing! The speed and skill of hockey is what draws people into watching it, not away from it. Learning the rules of the game in order to understand it is the same in any sport. The rules of hockey are not any harder to learn and understand than football or baseball. In today's economy, growing the game in big numbers is not likely to happen. There will always be new players as younger brothers, friends, and others join the sport. It is unrealistic to think that another surge in player enrollment is around the corner as happened after the 1980 USA Olympics. I know that is ancient history to most everyone here but that surge produced a cornerstone of USA players in the NHL in the 90s.

[-venom- 0]

That's fine and all, but if you take the 36% who answered football, and had them answer which was their 2nd favorite sport, I bet basketball blows hockey away.

95% of the Football fans I know, can't STAND basketball.

I'd be willing to bet that 70%+ of that 35% would take Hockey over Basketball, simply because the contact nature of Hockey is more appealing to Football fans....

[goblue9280 33]

95% of the Football fans I know, can't STAND basketball.

I'd be willing to bet that 70%+ of that 35% would take Hockey over Basketball, simply because the contact nature of Hockey is more appealing to Football fans....

That maybe true for the football fans that you know. But if you look at the second part of the harris poll, it shows the demographics of those who answered. Of the 36% of adults who answered pro football, 48% were African American... not to stereotype, but I have a feeling the vast majority of that 48% would pick basketball over hockey.

[tareatingrat 4]

I'd be willing to bet that 70%+ of that 35% would take Hockey over Basketball, simply because the contact nature of Hockey is more appealing to Football fans...

Somewhat true at our high school. When we had a hockey team, a good chunk of our players also played football, but we'd rarely be missing kids because they were at basketball. Generally a different set of kids.

It's hard to look objectively at why hockey isn't as popular, because we're on a hockey forum and it's the sport we all love. These, in order, are probably the biggest reasons in our area (I live in Winnipeg, and you'd think we'd be a huge hockey city, but it really depends on what area you live in):

1) Exposure: We have a large immigrant population from India, the Philippines, and lately, Africa. These are not areas where kids are going to be exposed to hockey. New immigrant parents don't take their kids skating, because it's not the sport they know and love. Second/third generation parents are slowly starting to enroll their kids in learn to skate programs and youth hockey. It just takes time. Our high school cricket team, however, has won the city championships the past few years.

2) Cost: It's not cheap to play hockey. Especially if you have more than one or two kids. This has been covered before, but I even have guys I play with debating whether to sign their kids up for hockey because of how much it costs them just to play in a beer league.

I didn't play as a kid, but my sister was a goalie. My parents spent probably in the tens of thousands to keep her playing from five years old. And she was good--she was always playing at the highest level available, but it was still far less expensive for a girl to play AA hockey than a boy playing AAA. You're talking maybe $2000 for equipment every two or three years, plus $2000 for ice every year, not including travel, tournaments, etc.

At our high school, we charged the bare minimum for kids to play C division high school hockey, and we still had to charge around $800 for the season. And that was subsidized partially by the school. Kid breaks one or two sticks a year, even at $80 a pop, sharpenings, etc., and you're looking at a $1500 season if you're lucky.

Basketball costs $150. Plus some shoes. Football is about the same, and equipment is provided. Baseball was $75.

Of course, it all depends on what your parents are willing to do and there are some programs to help get kids into hockey, but for parents struggling to get by, the game isn't even on the radar.

3) Skill: I do believe that, aside from a sport where you physically have to fight another human (boxing, MMA), hockey is the most difficult sport out there. I like to reference this: http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/sportSkills. It's also a very discouraging sport if you don't get to touch the puck much due to your skill level. If you don't have a natural aptitude for the game, and you haven't had the exposure from a young age, well, good luck enjoying the game enough to make a go of it as a kid.

[Jason Harris 31]

Your argument in favor shows exactly why hockey doesn't grow significantly. It takes time and, more often than not, some other reason for becoming interested in the game. It's not the type of sport that people happen to come across and become a fan.

I was thinking about this further, Chadd, and look at it from the half-full perspective. Many of us have heard three reasons people don't like to watch hockey: 1) too much fighting; 2) too hard to follow the puck; and 3) don't understand the game. I think the biggest impediment of those three -- and is true for any sport -- is the third. Have an opportunity to teach someone a game, and they'll either like it based on the game's merits, or they'll find it's not their style, but it won't be because they don't know what's going on.

This is almost contradicting what I just wrote, but I used to watch the girls play field hockey when I lived in New England. I admit that I tried to figure out the game on my own, but I found there just were too many whistles, stifling the flow. My assumption was most of them were for out of bounds or offsides, but it didn't matter; they slowed the game. Someone could have told me why the whistles were happening, but it wouldn't have changed my opinion. Compare that to ice hockey, which can have incredible flow, great hitting and numerous scoring chances.

Yes, it will take time to grow the sport, but if you take someone to the right live game -- as in not a clutch-and-grab snooze fest -- you'll turn on a fan. I've done it at least five times in the time we've been in Denver, where the person would ask me three days later, "Hey, did you watch last night's game?!?!"

By the way, I totally agree that the NHL, USA Hockey, OneGoal and virtually all of them have blown it by trying to position ice hockey separately from roller hockey. On the the other hand, one thing the NHL has done well is co-opted New Year's Day for the Winter Classic, although I'd like to see them settle on the week between Conference Championships and Super Bowls for the All Star Game.

[goblue9280 33]

By the way, I totally agree that the NHL, USA Hockey, OneGoal and virtually all of them have blown it by trying to position ice hockey separately from roller hockey

Here's my experience helping to grow hockey in a non-traditional market (Houston). The vast majority of kids in the sport are from parents down here from Canada, Michigan, Minnesota and the Northeast. Parents of these kids aren't all that interested in roller hockey... they feel ice is superior because that's what they grew up playing. I have a hard time believing that the NHL and USA Hockey can change those parents opinion.

[Chadd 916]

That's like saying the cars go too fast in auto racing!

NASCAR is the perfect television sport for American sports fans. It only happens once a week, on the same day most weeks, the action is infrequent and allows for long explanations and multiple replays before anything else is likely to happen. It's like football with cars. I won't even get into the part where they make the cars slow down artificially on certain tracks because they go to fast.

Here's my experience helping to grow hockey in a non-traditional market (Houston). The vast majority of kids in the sport are from parents down here from Canada, Michigan, Minnesota and the Northeast. Parents of these kids aren't all that interested in roller hockey... they feel ice is superior because that's what they grew up playing. I have a hard time believing that the NHL and USA Hockey can change those parents opinion.

Thank you for making my point. Growing the game is about bringing in new people, not about the people that already participate or those who are already familiar with the game. The NHL and USA Hockey should be growing ball hockey and inline in the sunbelt and urban areas. You also wouldn't be trying to grow inline or ball hockey by promoting it to kids playing ice, that makes absolutely no sense at all. You promote it to people playing other sports or no sports at all. Bringing in more people is the point, not having the same people play more.

[Cams 7]

Not to sound like an ignorant dink or anything, but I have to ask. Is roller hockey a big deal in the US? I really don't think it is here in Canada, and in fact, I had no idea Windsor (Ontario) even had a roller hockey league until summer. I honestly don't think roller hockey plays a big roll in popularizing ice hockey at all. I would consider it a way to possibly play hockey in the summer should ice not be available in a certain area. I know here - ice is available year round, so you could play 365 days in a row if you wanted or could physically do that!

Second point I want to acknowledge - Yes, ice hockey is an expensive sport to play, especially to put your child(ren) in. My example - it costs me $550 CDN/yr to have my daughter register, plus there is the cost of equipment which gets outgrown at a stupid pace. Not every parent will dish out $800 for skates, $250+ for a stick, - it's not really necessary at the youth level unless they are playing elite level hockey.

Lastly - and this is where I think the input from the mostly American users on here can lend input. Is it possible that ice hockey isn't popular in the US because there are less "home grown" big name talent playing. Is it the attitude - I don't like hockey because it's a Canadian game - dominated generally through out history, and pretty much today by athletes who are not Americans? I have talked to some Americans I have met who pretty much acknowledged this. I think it helps that the US has been competitive on the Olympic stage recently and even the World Jr.s - if it even gets much coverage. As a Canadian, I consider the US the main rivals now, and really hate losing to the US more than even the Russians. Until a couple years ago - Canada had won every single world women's championship! Then you take basketball, football, NASCAR even - it's almost exclusively Americans, or at least dominated by Americans (not so much baseball - but it has the great American pasttime label to it). I think that is why Americans generally couldn't less about F1 racing - there are no US drivers.

It amazes me how popular highschool football/basketball is in the US. It gets TV coverage! Not the case here for sure!!!!

[goblue9280 33]

Thank you for making my point. Growing the game is about bringing in new people, not about the people that already participate or those who are already familiar with the game. The NHL and USA Hockey should be growing ball hockey and inline in the sunbelt and urban areas. You also wouldn't be trying to grow inline or ball hockey by promoting it to kids playing ice, that makes absolutely no sense at all. You promote it to people playing other sports or no sports at all. Bringing in more people is the point, not having the same people play more.

I knew I could help. lol. I guess my followup would be how does USA Hockey or the NHL go about growing ball/inline hockey? Do they need to invest in the infrastructure or expect private business to do that? In Houston, it would need to be indoor facilities, because no one wants to play ball/inline outside from May through August. If I'm an investor, I'm probably going to prefer to put my money in a facility that I know has a customer base in the city (ice hockey) rather than in a facility in which I will need to build a customer base that doesn't already exist. I'm all for trying something different, I'm just curious how you think it should work.

[Chadd 916]

I knew I could help. lol. I guess my followup would be how does USA Hockey or the NHL go about growing ball/inline hockey? Do they need to invest in the infrastructure or expect private business to do that? In Houston, it would need to be indoor facilities, because no one wants to play ball/inline outside from May through August. If I'm an investor, I'm probably going to prefer to put my money in a facility that I know has a customer base in the city (ice hockey) rather than in a facility in which I will need to build a customer base that doesn't already exist. I'm all for trying something different, I'm just curious how you think it should work.

Donate equipment to non profit groups and schools, free clinics and free or reduced fee sessions. Financial help constructing facilities (playgrounds or parks) that incorporate hockey nets and lines on the ground. Between groups like the boys and girls clubs, police athletic leagues, church youth groups and other various non-profit entities, there are a lot of avenues available to try and grow the game. Even if only 10 or 20% of the kids that play end up sticking with the sport and moving on to other forms, or just becoming fans of the sport, the overall fan base will grow. Even giving schools some mylec street hockey gear for gym classes is an option. Schools all over the country have budget problems, free equipment would probably be accepted with open arms.

The point is to get the kids playing some kind of hockey, especially in other socioeconomic groups and nontraditional markets. If done in partnership with the NHL, having pro athletes come in and spend time with the kids can also have a huge impact.

[DarkStar50 679]

Hockey is done growing in this economy.

[Jason Harris 31]

Here's my experience helping to grow hockey in a non-traditional market (Houston). The vast majority of kids in the sport are from parents down here from Canada, Michigan, Minnesota and the Northeast. Parents of these kids aren't all that interested in roller hockey... they feel ice is superior because that's what they grew up playing. I have a hard time believing that the NHL and USA Hockey can change those parents opinion.

I knew I could help. lol. I guess my followup would be how does USA Hockey or the NHL go about growing ball/inline hockey? Do they need to invest in the infrastructure or expect private business to do that? In Houston, it would need to be indoor facilities, because no one wants to play ball/inline outside from May through August. If I'm an investor, I'm probably going to prefer to put my money in a facility that I know has a customer base in the city (ice hockey) rather than in a facility in which I will need to build a customer base that doesn't already exist. I'm all for trying something different, I'm just curious how you think it should work.

I understand that parents feel ice is superior, because I like ice better, but I recognize they're both hockey. And the most important challenge to any smart business is to increase exposure for their product in a natural way. So sponsoring a rock climbing challenge is a stretch for an NHL team, but having the 1st Annual Roller Hockey Summer 3-On-3 Challenge totally fits in with the goals of an NHL team: growing awareness for their product. They could start by using existing facilities, but ultimately the teams could build their own facilities if the profit model makes sense; at that point, they'd be controlling the exposure of their secondary product.

Hockey is done growing in this economy.

Maybe the numbers of players are set, but any sport can steal viewers in any economy if their games are compelling enough.

[iceNsteel 0]

Lastly - and this is where I think the input from the mostly American users on here can lend input. Is it possible that ice hockey isn't popular in the US because there are less "home grown" big name talent playing. Is it the attitude - I don't like hockey because it's a Canadian game - dominated generally through out history, and pretty much today by athletes who are not Americans? I have talked to some Americans I have met who pretty much acknowledged this. I think it helps that the US has been competitive on the Olympic stage recently and even the World Jr.s - if it even gets much coverage. As a Canadian, I consider the US the main rivals now, and really hate losing to the US more than even the Russians. Until a couple years ago - Canada had won every single world women's championship! Then you take basketball, football, NASCAR even - it's almost exclusively Americans, or at least dominated by Americans (not so much baseball - but it has the great American pasttime label to it). I think that is why Americans generally couldn't less about F1 racing - there are no US drivers.

It amazes me how popular highschool football/basketball is in the US. It gets TV coverage! Not the case here for sure!!!!

That's a chicken or the egg question. Are the big names in hockey generally Canadian/European because the sport is more popular there, or are the big names from Canada/Europe because that's where the sport is more popular. I don't have any sort of data, but I would think it logical that if hockey were more popular in the US you'd see more American top name players. As it is a lot of the best American athletes never even really consider hockey. Most Americans know of hockey, but it's hardly something they consider putting their kids in.

You can't ignore that the expense of hockey as one of the things that holds it back, but on the other hand I think a lot of people use the cost as a cop out to avoid discussing a lot of what's wrong with youth hockey. I think a big part of why people don't want their kids in hockey is crap like the AAA tier I elite selects squirt team. In other words the entire silly notion of 9 year olds being elite anything and the idiotic competitiveness it produces. I've yet to run across a youth football league that declares itself elite, which is not to say that it doesn't exist at all, but it's not common. Whereas the drive to split kids into good and bad hockey players from the youngest possible age is ever present in youth hockey, and it's a big part of why kids quit hockey and why kids never start hockey. It's just unrealistic to expect a lot of parents to go along with having their kid declared a checker at the ripe old age of 12 and yet still spend $3k a year for him to get 8 minutes of ice time a game. Nor can you expect a lot of kids to be interested in that.

[goblue9280 33]

Even giving schools some mylec street hockey gear for gym classes is an option. Schools all over the country have budget problems, free equipment would probably be accepted with open arms.

I would love to get something like that going in some of the elementary schools around our rink. Even if the PE teachers weren't interested, then start something like a free after school program where the kids could play a team from another school.

[DarkStar50 679]

You can't ignore that the expense of hockey as one of the things that holds it back, but on the other hand I think a lot of people use the cost as a cop out to avoid discussing a lot of what's wrong with youth hockey. I think a big part of why people don't want their kids in hockey is crap like the AAA tier I elite selects squirt team. In other words the entire silly notion of 9 year olds being elite anything and the idiotic competitiveness it produces. I've yet to run across a youth football league that declares itself elite, which is not to say that it doesn't exist at all, but it's not common. Whereas the drive to split kids into good and bad hockey players from the youngest possible age is ever present in youth hockey, and it's a big part of why kids quit hockey and why kids never start hockey. It's just unrealistic to expect a lot of parents to go along with having their kid declared a checker at the ripe old age of 12 and yet still spend $3k a year for him to get 8 minutes of ice time a game. Nor can you expect a lot of kids to be interested in that.

This is an excellent point regarding AAA hockey. I have seen quite a decline in the Atlantic District among AAA teams and their quality and quantity of players at all levels. In some cases, the only difference between youth hockey and adult league hockey is no beer for the kids! This is just my neck of the woods and not a general statement for all levels everywhere.

[Axxion89 32]

Hockey is making progress in growing popularity whereas I feel Basketball is falling due to poor publicity and poor financials. If the NHL spent more money into funding youth hockey and trying to make hockey more affordable in general than trying to start a franchise in a desert/poor markets, it would create new fans with interest in the sport. How many hockey fans do you know that DIDN'T play hockey? 80% of my friends who are NHL fans played hockey.

Also, as much success the NHL is having growing the past few years, it should be of the most critical importance that the NHL and NHLPA avoid a labor circus such as what the NFL and NBA went through. Negative media will hurt the NHL and a lockout would be a huge blow.

[Chadd 916]

I would love to get something like that going in some of the elementary schools around our rink. Even if the PE teachers weren't interested, then start something like a free after school program where the kids could play a team from another school.

And that traditional ice hockey market mentality starts adding in costs and logistical problems right off the bat. Now you have travel costs, additional staffing costs and competition. I'm talking about ways to expose kids to the sport in a way that is fun, not building leagues and turning it into another expensive model that is making it hard for ice hockey in the current economic environment. If there is interest, that stuff will inevitably come later.

[Axxion89 32]

And that traditional ice hockey market mentality starts adding in costs and logistical problems right off the bat. Now you have travel costs, additional staffing costs and competition. I'm talking about ways to expose kids to the sport in a way that is fun, not building leagues and turning it into another expensive model that is making it hard for ice hockey in the current economic environment. If there is interest, that stuff will inevitably come later.

I would believe a good idea would be the NHL donating cheap gear to public schools so that kids could play during PE or recess. I know a few schools by me growing up played hockey in gym. All you really need are sticks, street hockey level goalie gear, a ball, and probably some type of helmet if you want to be safe (at least 2 for the goalies though). Would be cheap, increases exposure, and you can advertise it as a way to get today's kids active and fit. Win win

[DarkStar50 679]

Great ideas on paper but then the reality is that state, town, and school budgets are getting slashed everywhere. There is no "public" money to get this off the ground when other services are being cut. Also there is always the 800 lb. gorilla in the room: insurance liability. Not trying to rain on anyone's parade. Who wouldn't love to see more kids play hockey than someone like me who works in a rink pro shop. I just see a lot of different variables that constantly change from year to year that stunt hockey's growth.

One other aspect that I would love to see happen is for the NHL and the vendors(Bauer, Easton, RBK,..) to truly put their money where their mouth is and put some big money into hockey for kids. We talk about it here but it will never happen.

[Chadd 916]

Great ideas on paper but then the reality is that state, town, and school budgets are getting slashed everywhere. There is no "public" money to get this off the ground when other services are being cut.

I'm suggesting that the NHL and/or USA Hockey should be funding this, not using public money. Manufacturers donating leftover closeout items to these programs would be good for the industry as well. Writing off the donations at full wholesale or MSRP could be more beneficial than selling off stuff for 20 cents on the dollar and it wouldn't kill margins. As for schools and other non profit youth sports groups, they already have liability insurance. I'm sure there are flaws, but I would think that getting smarter people than me involved would certainly help resolve them.

[DigDug 5]

Perhaps its the perception of injury. I just *know* that the tragedy of that poor kid getting paralyzed puckered the butts of a few parents.

[theGhost 0]

I'm suggesting that the NHL and/or USA Hockey should be funding this, not using public money. Manufacturers donating leftover closeout items to these programs would be good for the industry as well. Writing off the donations at full wholesale or MSRP could be more beneficial than selling off stuff for 20 cents on the dollar and it wouldn't kill margins. As for schools and other non profit youth sports groups, they already have liability insurance. I'm sure there are flaws, but I would think that getting smarter people than me involved would certainly help resolve them.

Agreed. If they wanted to, the powers that be could figure out how to make this happen. At some point, they will. Probably when there is no other choice, because of the decline of the sport, but hopefully sooner...