Interesting comment by Chara on industry's constant change

[dsjunior1388 81]

I'm curious about the idea that Chara/Green could buy up the stock, for the simple reason that I wonder if they are informed that their favorite product is on its way out. Does Easton send out a note that says "We are discontinuing the S15 shaft. It will not be available next season." It seems more likely that he just gets the bad news too late to do anything about it, and thats why he's left with no recourse but to complain publicly.

[Brian Harte 1]

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[dsjunior1388 81]

Well, That "s15" shaft they might be using isn't necessarily going to be the same S15 shaft you and I can go buy at the local shop. Got to keep that in mind.

Just look at the pro stick options by Warrior or Reebok for example. The graphic scheme on the outside is just that, a graphic scheme.

At any rate, good work Keith and Warrior. I think you guys did really good with the All Star Game and Chara

Ok, lets use common sense here. We'll call Charas specific specs the "UltraKlingon5000Deluxeifier." When they stop offerring the materials and build processes necessary to produce the UltraKlingon5000Deluxeifier, does Chara get to know in advance?

Pretty simple...if you like a stick, have the EQM order 10 dozen instead of 2-3 dozen. And if he won't do it, have the balls to take your credit card out, hand it to the rep, and buy the sticks yourself.

I get the impression most of the players aren't looking that far in advance, IE not anticipating the end of the production line. Maybe thats foolishness on their part but I think if Chara was given a heads up back then, we wouldn't be hearing this now. And I'm assuming its the S15 but it could be any number of sticks he has used that he wishes he still had.

[Brian Harte 1]

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[hockeymass 11]

I am using common sense.

I think it's going to be a while before there is a drastic revolution in pro hockey stick construction. composite structure, shaft stiffness, shaft wall thickness, flex zones, and taper areas... I'd like to think it's pretty much all been done at this point, and any number of combinations can be created for "player X".

I don't work directly with hockey sticks, so I'm not an expert obviously. I do work in the golf industry, so I'd like to think I have some knowledge of the general ideas here.

There ARE people here who do know more about hockey stick construction and I don't know what kind of, if any, info they want to reveal.

IF a player really wants something, he will get it. I stand by that statement. Like I said before, money talks.

Not if it doesn't exist anymore.

[Brian Harte 1]

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[Lee-Bro 1]

Yeah, you're right.

I'm pretty sure if somebody came up to Easton and asked them to make a certain stick, they would just say no. No thought put into it, no price thrown out, nothing.

No need for a company to try and make money... you know, like what a business is for. That wouldn't make any sense.

When retooling is involved, espeically retro retooling, price is affected by things other than the sale of the special order: it takes manpower, material inventory, a piece of production capacity, the actual retooling process, and potential delay on current and future products

I agree that there's a price to everything and if Easton (or any other company) takes all the factors into consideration, they'll quote a price to compensate them for all the efforts and potential losses this diversion of resources may cost them. However, the price may not be the customer's price in mind, therefore it makes the product "unavailable." Everyone has a price - a price they're willing to pay, and a price they're willing to walk away from paying.

[Brian Harte 1]

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[hockeymass 11]

Yeah, you're right.

I'm pretty sure if somebody came up to Easton and asked them to make a certain stick, they would just say no. No thought put into it, no price thrown out, nothing.

No need for a company to try and make money... you know, like what a business is for. That wouldn't make any sense.

Yes, exactly my point. Thanks

It can be done. To people like me and you (i'm assuiming), it's probably not possible, but maybe for a professional hockey player making millions per year, it might be possible. Seems like some people got the idea it would be impossible for somebody to get a stick that wasn't currently in production.

And to further this, even though it's off topic, I really wonder what all the details of the Mike Green and Easton thing were. It would be interesting to know what his options were and what the final factor was with everything.

Obviously it can be done, but to assume that retooling to produce a line of sticks for one person is anything but cost-prohibitive is ridiculous.

[JR Boucicaut 3768]

And to further this, even though it's off topic, I really wonder what all the details of the Mike Green and Easton thing were. It would be interesting to know what his options were and what the final factor was with everything.

The CNT had the double concave/kevlar reinforced corner shaft, and the way I understood it was that they were not able to offer him/make him that anymore. They haven't had that shaft geometry since discontinuing the stick.

[Chadd 916]

In reference to something mentioned earlier in this topic, I am all for changes when the technology advances warrant it. Unfortunately they are making changes to meet marketing deadlines in many cases.

[hockeymass 11]

In reference to something mentioned earlier in this topic, I am all for changes when the technology advances warrant it. Unfortunately they are making changes to meet marketing deadlines in many cases.

I don't think there's been significant advances in stick tech in the last 10 years. I mean, maybe engineering kickpoint has gotten better, but it's all mostly the same. They're not even significantly lighter.

[Chadd 916]

I would have to disagree with you. Even the cheaper stuff performs better than the original OPS.

[shooter27 116]

It can be done. To people like me and you (i'm assuiming), it's probably not possible, but maybe for a professional hockey player making millions per year, it might be possible. Seems like some people got the idea it would be impossible for somebody to get a stick that wasn't currently in production.

My guess is even to a pro making millions a year its probably cost prohibitive. I've got to assume that in order to retrofit production to make an older product all of the costs associated with retooling, manpower, material inventory, a piece of production capacity, the actual retooling process, and potential delay on current and future products is going to add up to a minimum of several million dollars. So while it may not be cost prohibitive for a billionaire, it is cost prohibitive for a guy making even 6, 7, 8 million bucks. (Kind of like owning a 747 is possible, but only for the very few richest of the rich) Not to mention the unquantifiable opportunity cost that the manufacturer would be forced to bear for all the other intangibles that would be associated with modifying their factory ad hoc. So while it technically may be "possible", for all intents and purposes its not really possible.

[kklinder 0]

Wow - reading through this, I didn't think the cat fight was going to end...MEOW!

BH, you're in the golf business. I use Sanvik titanium shafts on my irons. Last summer, my six iron shaft broke. If you can get another one for me, I'll take you, Chara, and Green for a round of golf and dinner in Easton, PA.

[hockeymass 11]

I would have to disagree with you. Even the cheaper stuff performs better than the original OPS.

You think a new $150ish twig is significantly better than a 2002 Synergy? I mean, you might be right. I don't see any big differences.

[JR Boucicaut 3768]

You think a new $150ish twig is significantly better than a 2002 Synergy? I mean, you might be right. I don't see any big differences.

I think that the biggest advances have been made on the lower end of the spectrum in terms of sticks. The stick they sold for $99 5 years ago gets smoked by the stick they are selling for $59 nowadays.

It's an evolutionary cycle, especially at top-end; small tweaks here and there.

[Chappie 0]

The idea of how a blade is made now is incredibly different then it was 10 years ago as well. Even top end sticks like the XX Lite had terrible blades when compared to what you have today, even on the low-end sticks (as mentioned).

Puck absorption on a pass and puck feel on the blade itself has come a long long way since as short a time period as 2006. The Combat sticks are proof of even now how technology is always progression in sticks.

[watchgreat 4]

I could have sworn I read somewhere that after Green moved to Base, Easton caved and remade him the CNTs. I read that before he made the move Easton tried to make him more CNTs but he said they werent the same and then continued to Base.

[hockeymass 11]

I think that the biggest advances have been made on the lower end of the spectrum in terms of sticks. The stick they sold for $99 5 years ago gets smoked by the stick they are selling for $59 nowadays.

It's an evolutionary cycle, especially at top-end; small tweaks here and there.

The idea of how a blade is made now is incredibly different then it was 10 years ago as well. Even top end sticks like the XX Lite had terrible blades when compared to what you have today, even on the low-end sticks (as mentioned).

Puck absorption on a pass and puck feel on the blade itself has come a long long way since as short a time period as 2006. The Combat sticks are proof of even now how technology is always progression in sticks.

Good points. I'm surprised at the quality of the newer cheap sticks. I think there's not a whole lot of room for innovation at the top end as far as shaft tech goes, because making the stick lighter has diminishing returns to a point where it would have a terrible feel if it were TOO light. I agree that the old stuff had bad pass absorption, one of the issues I had originally switching from a Sherwood 5030 to a TPS Response.

[Jason Harris 31]

Each factory will have its own minimums, but I recall from my time with Salming that the factory they used required a 300-piece minimum per specific stick. In other words, lefthanded, 110 flex, Chara curve....300 units. They might even have had a larger minimum (1000 pieces, I think) on the entire order, but I'm not positive about that.

But let's say that Chara wants Easton to talk to their factory to remake whatever stick he was using. Without knowing how full Easton's production schedule is, he'd first have to convince Easton to fit his 300 (or more) piece order in, which they might not want to do because it could slow down the production of their current sales offerings. Assuming he's able to talk Easton into asking their factory to make a side run, he possibly would have to find another buddy to buy 300 pieces of a different stick, let's say a righthanded, 90 flex, Kane curve. And maybe even a third buddy if my memory is correct about the 1000-piece minimum for the entire order.

Sure, everything is negotiable, and maybe Easton could ask their factory rep to lower the minimum to 100-pieces per specific stick, but it becomes obvious that even for a professional athlete, this still could be a rather expensive proposition. And if they're not able to convince a factory to lower its minimums, they'd also be looking at buying about fifteen years worth of sticks!

[hockeymass 11]

Each factory will have its own minimums, but I recall from my time with Salming that the factory they used required a 300-piece minimum per specific stick. In other words, lefthanded, 110 flex, Chara curve....300 units. They might even have had a larger minimum (1000 pieces, I think) on the entire order, but I'm not positive about that.

But let's say that Chara wants Easton to talk to their factory to remake whatever stick he was using. Without knowing how full Easton's production schedule is, he'd first have to convince Easton to fit his 300 (or more) piece order in, which they might not want to do because it could slow down the production of their current sales offerings. Assuming he's able to talk Easton into asking their factory to make a side run, he possibly would have to find another buddy to buy 300 pieces of a different stick, let's say a righthanded, 90 flex, Kane curve. And maybe even a third buddy if my memory is correct about the 1000-piece minimum for the entire order.

Sure, everything is negotiable, and maybe Easton could ask their factory rep to lower the minimum to 100-pieces per specific stick, but it becomes obvious that even for a professional athlete, this still could be a rather expensive proposition. And if they're not able to convince a factory to lower its minimums, they'd also be looking at buying about fifteen years worth of sticks!

That's what I was trying to say, and yeah, that assumes Easton (or any other company) would even want to do it. The pros are marketing tools for these companies, not the money makers. The bread and butter comes from the beer leaguers and youth hockey.

[chippa13 1844]

You see, these go to 11.

[leer2006 2]

I'm actually surprised that some of the companies haven't started offering retro product's. If there is such a huge market out there for certain discontinued items one could assume that a Company like Easton could offer the public a limited run of Synergy's or Bauer the one95 at a nice profit. If a market for them truely exists.

[JR Boucicaut 3768]

The market wanting to do that isn't as big as you think.

The same answer that people in here gave Chara/Green/Shanahan applies for retail: you like it? Pony up the cash and horde it before it goes away.

You just bring back the design or fit 15 years later...that way nobody notices. Trust me, it's done.