Jump to content
Slate Blackcurrant Watermelon Strawberry Orange Banana Apple Emerald Chocolate Marble
Slate Blackcurrant Watermelon Strawberry Orange Banana Apple Emerald Chocolate Marble

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

dsjunior1388

Lidstrom's rank amongst all-time defensemen

Recommended Posts

I've always said

1. Orr

2. Harvey

3. Bourque

4. Lidstrom

The younger fans don't often think of Orr, presumably because they didn't grow up watching him. I haven't yet seen anyone to make me forget him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A lot of people say Orr was better, but for my money, Lidstrom excelled in a game where European influence bulked up the talent in the league, and brought many different styles of offensive play into the game, and had the mind to be able to adjust to each opponents strengths, and ALWAYS be in the right position. Equipment advances brought lower scoring totals during his career as well. For my money, he is THE best defenceman of all time.

You're right, they played in different eras. Their personalities seemed similar, as both were incredible ambassadors to the game, but the biggest difference between Orr and Lidstrom was how each compared to their peers. Orr was easily the consensus best player in the game when he played, whereas Lidstrom was the consensus best defenseman. Orr led the league in plus/minus six times, while Lidstrom never did; Orr led the league in scoring twice, was second three times and was third once, while Lidstrom's never was among the top ten.

Orr might have been even better if medical science had been more advanced at the time. The biggest travesty about Orr's career was how all the knee operations became more damaging than his initial injuries. It was either six on one knee and five on another, or seven on one knee and six on another, but the result was he was left in constant pain because no cartilage remained in either knee.

Really, the question for Orr isn't whether he's the best defenseman of all time, but whether he's the best player of all time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Really, the question for Orr isn't whether he's the best defenseman of all time, but whether he's the best player of all time.

I think most would agree that Orr in his prime was better than Lidstrom in his. You pegged it with the argument of how they compared to their peers... a player winning the Ross, Hart, Norris and Conn Smythe in the same season might not ever happen again.

However, there's no guarantee that Orr would have had better longevity in today's NHL even with medical advancements. His style of play led to him taking lots of hits to his left knee... in todays bigger-faster-stronger league, he may have even had a shorter career. That being said, if I had to choose between having Orr for 9 productive years, or Lidstrom for 20... I'm taking #5.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is really hard to say how Orr would have fared with today's advancements. A lot of the reason for Orr's shortened career wasn't just the surgeries but also the targeting of his knees that was done by opponents. A lot of the embarrassments of the '70's don't occur in today's game, well, at least as far as leg checking goes. Today, teams would just try to take his head off.

As for the comparison between Orr and Lidstrom, it is so difficult to compare guys from different eras. One idea that comes up a lot in these discussions is that Orr would be able to play in this era but I think a lot of guys from today's game would have a hard time playing in Orr's day. Remember, Orr wasn't just a beautiful skater but he was also a mean fighter.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think there isnt a way to compare the era's,

both where great defenceman, for me what stands out with lidstrom is just his hockey smarts. Almost always making the right play, being in the good spot, his defence abbility was/is amazing. Then again I never had the privilige to watch Orr.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

However, there's no guarantee that Orr would have had better longevity in today's NHL even with medical advancements. His style of play led to him taking lots of hits to his left knee... in todays bigger-faster-stronger league, he may have even had a shorter career. That being said, if I had to choose between having Orr for 9 productive years, or Lidstrom for 20... I'm taking #5.

I just did a quick search to see what other NHL players had to retire due to knee injuries. The only three that popped up in the first three pages of results were Gord Kluzak, Pavel Bure and Derien Hatcher. Basically, knee injuries are a relatively rare occurrence in hockey compared to football, soccer and basketball, mainly because the ability to change direction is so dynamic in hockey. But, as chippa said, it was well assumed that players targeted Orr's knees. Add to that, a friend of mine blew out his knee in football in 1978. He has scars running 6"-9" inches on both sides of the knee, has had to have multiple surgeries, and has been told he'll need to replace his knee; he also has been told by the doctor that he would have most likely had a 3" scar and one operation if it had happened today.

Finally, I always had thought that Orr weighed about 185, but he was just around 200 at a time when players didn't really work out.

Add it up and I think it's safe to assume that if Orr grew up with today's medical science or fitness/nutrition, his career should have easily gone another five productive years, and his career statistics as is might have been 3%-5% better. In fact, he led the league in scoring during his last full season in 1974-75, then if my memory is correct, he took a knee-on-knee hit during those playoffs and only played another 36 games over the next four seasons.

Again, as wonderful a man and player as Lidstrom was, Orr's historical comps are to Gretzky, Howe and Lemieux, but not to Lidstrom.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

While retiring from knee injuries may not be as common, knee injuries alone are quite common. My point is, there's no way of knowing how well his knee would have responded to today's treatments. No doubt he would certainly of had a better chance at a longer career... but some guys simply are more susceptible to these types of injuries. Look at a guy like Greg Oden who has been unable to play more than a handful of games and continues to have surgery after surgery using all of the latest fancy techniques. It's incredible to think of where Orr might have ended up stats/awards wise had he played even another 5 years... he might be the viewed the consensus greatest ever (over Gretzky) had he gotten those years.

I'm a huge Wings homer, but I would never say Lidstrom was a better player than Orr. But I do think Lidstrom had a better career... simply due to winning more cups, never missing the playoffs and playing 20 years while rarely missing a game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think there isnt a way to compare the era's,

both where great defenceman, for me what stands out with lidstrom is just his hockey smarts. Almost always making the right play, being in the good spot, his defence abbility was/is amazing. Then again I never had the privilige to watch Orr.

The game changed because of Orr, it didn't change because of Lidstrom. I love Nik, he's one of my favorite players in the league, but Orr was something special.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just did a quick search to see what other NHL players had to retire due to knee injuries. The only three that popped up in the first three pages of results were Gord Kluzak, Pavel Bure and Derien Hatcher. Basically, knee injuries are a relatively rare occurrence in hockey compared to football, soccer and basketball, mainly because the ability to change direction is so dynamic in hockey. But, as chippa said, it was well assumed that players targeted Orr's knees. Add to that, a friend of mine blew out his knee in football in 1978. He has scars running 6"-9" inches on both sides of the knee, has had to have multiple surgeries, and has been told he'll need to replace his knee; he also has been told by the doctor that he would have most likely had a 3" scar and one operation if it had happened today.

Finally, I always had thought that Orr weighed about 185, but he was just around 200 at a time when players didn't really work out.

Add it up and I think it's safe to assume that if Orr grew up with today's medical science or fitness/nutrition, his career should have easily gone another five productive years, and his career statistics as is might have been 3%-5% better. In fact, he led the league in scoring during his last full season in 1974-75, then if my memory is correct, he took a knee-on-knee hit during those playoffs and only played another 36 games over the next four seasons.

Again, as wonderful a man and player as Lidstrom was, Orr's historical comps are to Gretzky, Howe and Lemieux, but not to Lidstrom.

I would have to say its closer than you might think, but the glory in this is that we could discuss forever, and still would never know. the biggest problem in lidstroms corner is Bobby Orr made a greater highlight reel

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Though he's not quite on Lidstrom's level, it seems that in the wake of Nick's retirement, everyone forgot Scott Niedermayer used to be pretty good at hockey too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I remember Orr picking up the puck in his zone, starting a rush, many times. He'd accelerate and maneuver smoothly, and always seemed to know where the opponents were, where they would be, and what he had to do to just go around them. His combination of skill, game sense, vision, and tactics made him very special.

They would stay in town about a week after the season ended and then they would take off to Sweden and wouldn't come back until the school year started. The eldest has been living in Sweden for the past couple of years now.

That's interesting. Now it sounds like they'll have to give up a lot of the time (and friends) in the U.S. Who knows where they'll choose to settle? Although I'd expect that Lidstrom may have discussed that with them before making his decision.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Though he's not quite on Lidstrom's level, it seems that in the wake of Nick's retirement, everyone forgot Scott Niedermayer used to be pretty good at hockey too.

Niedermayer in his prime was certainly exceptional but he had the physical building blocks, e.g. footspeed, much more so than Nicklas. And that's what made Liddy special, not a lot of players have dominated a game for so long without ever possessing top notch physical skills. Out of this world anticipation...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The game changed because of Orr, it didn't change because of Lidstrom. I love Nik, he's one of my favorite players in the league, but Orr was something special.

I understand the game changed because of Orr and not with Lidstrom. I was actually talking about what I know from Lidstrom.

Even though Orr changed a game you cant compare the two for the matter of fact they played in different era's. just my two cents. Ofcourse you can always what if but that is just pure speculation. Orr changed the way defencemen played, but saying that he may be able to "last longer" in this era is speculation.. We will never know.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Niedermayer in his prime was certainly exceptional but he had the physical building blocks, e.g. footspeed, much more so than Nicklas. And that's what made Liddy special, not a lot of players have dominated a game for so long without ever possessing top notch physical skills. Out of this world anticipation...

I don't think footspeed for Niedermayer, I think of a near flawless stride. I would say Lidstrom had top notch physical skills and was good at implementing them it was difficult to notice.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I do think the game changed because of Lidstrom, though perhaps not so obviously as it did with Orr. Compare the pattern of defensive puck movement in the early 90s to now: everyone is trying to teach their players to do what Lidstrom did, both in terms of how he actually moved the puck and how he made decisions on the fly. It just took them a long time to figure out how to teach it.

Lidstrom also had phenomenal physical tools. He may not have had Niedermeyer's point-to-point speed, but he also knew far better than Niedermeyer how infrequently that kind of skating was useful. He mastered his stick to a degree no-one really knew was possible, and did so in part because of absolutely insane coordination. He was also grossly underrated in his physical play because he was so smart about it.

Chippa, I think Karlsson is the one guy who might have a shot to inherit Lidstrom's role, but Alfredsson will have to stick around long enough to get a little of the wiseass out of him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't know. All of these changes that you are attributing to Lidstrom were being done by Bourque 10 years earlier. With Bourque's passing accuracy, imagine what he would have done without the redline.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

With Bourque's passing accuracy, imagine what he would have done without the redline.

With Lidstrom's passing accuracy, imagine what he would have done had he not played the bulk of his career during the dead puck era.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lidstrom only played three seasons in the dead puck era that Bourque didn't: 2002-2004.

My point was the 11 or 12 seasons Bourque played before Lidstrom got to the league was the highest scoring era in league history.

Lidstrom's career spanned the entire dead puck era, and the post dead puck era that still hasn't seen scoring anywhere near that of the 80's and first few years of the 90's.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My point was the 11 or 12 seasons Bourque played before Lidstrom got to the league was the highest scoring era in league history.

Lidstrom's career spanned the entire dead puck era, and the post dead puck era that still hasn't seen scoring anywhere near that of the 80's and first few years of the 90's.

I agree. Lidstrom would have had a lot more points in his career had he played in era's where the goalies padding were much less forgiving, teams didnt clog the middle so much, etc. thats the main difficulty of comparing players from different eras.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just for the guys that were in the prime of their career while I was watching the sport, I think a case can be made for either Lidstrom or Bourque. That said, I would probably rank Bourque ahead because he could (and did) do everything Llidstrom did, but also had a more physical element to his game. That isn't to take away from Lidstrom at all, as these guys are easily the best, and most complete, defensemen I ever saw.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When it comes to the top 5 I think you can swap them around however you want and not be wrong. Orr was the best at scoring, Lidtrom with ice management, Bourque playing physical, etc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Orr was so much more than just scoring. He could take complete control of a game, could kill penalties on his own, and beat you down if you crossed him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...