Maximum Edge vs. Pro Skate-Balance

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

"I'm agreeing with JR on this one - Take the course and try to find ways to improve yourself as a sharpener - but I would not market myself with them."

I said that not JR.

You can not have another local shop allowed to use the ME method unless you have a very dense hockey population or you are a certain distance away. Bob does try to protect the areas he sells to. If the OP already has a great business again all he might learn are some tricks to do a few things better based on what he learned.

I am not selling the system and I do not own a franchise.

All I am saying is the guy just like Wally knows his stuff and to go and learn from the guy would never hurt.

Or do not go.

All I know what I learned has helped with practical time made me the sharpener I am today. I have had offers in the OHL I have worked in the AHL and ran a pretty successful set of pro shops that have turned out more skates than any other company in NA so I think I have a leg to stand on here.

I can not disclose the amount in dollars but I am willing to bet you there isnt a company in NA that sharpened as many as the company I worked for in the peak year. I believe it was 2010.

[JR Boucicaut 3801]

Jeff -

I don't think anyone is knocking you or saying you're not a great sharpener, which isn't true.

I've learned from you. And a lot of others on the way up.

[bones71 1]

JR I take no offence to any of this. This type of spirited response is exactly what I'd hoped for with my initial post - Thanks for that. The crux of my situation was touched on - using a "Brand" for marketing purposes - and that brand will not be ME. They polarize many markets they are in because of some of the reasons mentioned in this thread and that is why I chose them as a baseline for comparison.Wally intrigues me because the "Basics" of his program are where I arrived on my own through listening, learning, and experimenting instead of yapping and trying to trash the competition. My concern is that I do not want an intuitive or instinctive offering, no offence to anyone intended. I'd love a repeatable, protocol based method that we can "season" to our tastes and really turn up the heat on our competition and, that resonates with our current and, hopefully, future clientele.

That said, my personal practice with all my business endeavours has always been to take great info and join it with your personality and perspective. That is what we would do.

It's worthwhile to note that I am trying to decrease our customers' reliance on me and my "expertise" as many areas of my life require much of my time (wife, kids, coaching, other businesses) and as many of you have alluded - you market yourself. But, I can no longer offer the "small shop" personal services I have in the past and I want to create a basis by which several of my staff can have our customer base feel confident that my guys can offer what they would normally expect only from me. I hope to replace that "small shop" vibe with one of high function and a promise of player improvement.

JR, your own replies to the guys wanting skates fitted/ordered is a similar situation.

Would a recognized system fast track that for my guys with a demanding customer base that takes themselves and their kids' hockey a tad too seriously?

Continuous improvement is the key and it's a practice we are implementing in a few key areas - for example I am sending two squads of 3-4 staff members to St. Jerome to learn from Jerry so they can take our fitting and custom services to the highest level possible.

I don't mean to come off as pompous and I appreciate all the responses. I am learning from you guys every time I crack open the mac and check this thread so pile on more info and opinions if you think it would benefit.

Side Note - As a long time lurker but infrequent poster I have to say that as I am nearing the end of my third decade as a gear geek and having satisfied a childhood compulsion to try to be a gear expert, this site makes me smile every time I log. I have sifted through and adapted much information which has truly helped me improve myself and what I offer all types of players. I even make my staff stay up to date and we meet to disseminate many of the topics on the board. Keep it up guys and thanks.

[Chadd 916]

If you have a good reputation for your personal work, take some time and document what you do. Then develop your process and set that as the standard. Require that your staff do it your way, every time. Spot check their work and make sure they use your method. Then you can tell those worried parents that the staff has been trained to your spec and will provide the same quality that you do.

When I was still running my shop, I hired a 30 something year old woman to come in on her days off. She became really good at sharpening, but a lot of people refused to bring their skates in when she was there. One night I asked her to work a night when I was playing in a game and dropped my skates off to have her sharpen them. I started getting dressed and guys were asking where my skates were and If I would sharpen their skates so she wouldn't do theirs. I told them she was doing my skates and if they wanted theirs done that night then she would be doing them,. Because this league was mostly parents of the youth players at the rink, word got around fast and she was constantly busy doing skates when she was in the shop. Long story, I know, but once you convince the customers that your staff are doing it your way, and they are just as good as you are, you won't have those problems any more.

[bones71 1]

Thanks for the reply Chadd - Sharpening quality is not a problem. We have what I consider to be extremely high volume with few issues. I am trying to move to a new level where profiling, contouring, and cutting edge performance ideals are administered by my staff. I want to wean my customers and staff from reliance on myself.

I want hockey people to choose the store for their needs, not to choose to come see me.

I am trying to determine if a formal system can aid in that transition.

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

Thanks for the reply Chadd - Sharpening quality is not a problem. We have what I consider to be extremely high volume with few issues. I am trying to move to a new level where profiling, contouring, and cutting edge performance ideals are administered by my staff. I want to wean my customers and staff from reliance on myself.

I want hockey people to choose the store for their needs, not to choose to come see me.

I am trying to determine if a formal system can aid in that transition.

Sent ya PM

[Chadd 916]

Thanks for the reply Chadd - Sharpening quality is not a problem. We have what I consider to be extremely high volume with few issues. I am trying to move to a new level where profiling, contouring, and cutting edge performance ideals are administered by my staff. I want to wean my customers and staff from reliance on myself.

I want hockey people to choose the store for their needs, not to choose to come see me.

I am trying to determine if a formal system can aid in that transition.

Best of luck with that avenue. I find that most of the people doing that are just trying to improve revenue streams or get people to pay for equipment and systems that they bought. Very, very few people offering these services put in the time and effort required to provide what the skater needs. Far too often, they have a default option or two and tend to put everyone in those defaults in order to save time. Others use charts or formulas to determine what they think people should use. The right way is to actually see people skate and judge from there. I know Jeff has a lot of experience with that method.

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

Best of luck with that avenue. I find that most of the people doing that are just trying to improve revenue streams or get people to pay for equipment and systems that they bought. Very, very few people offering these services put in the time and effort required to provide what the skater needs. Far too often, they have a default option or two and tend to put everyone in those defaults in order to save time. Others use charts or formulas to determine what they think people should use. The right way is to actually see people skate and judge from there. I know Jeff has a lot of experience with that method.

Thanks Chadd and JR much appreciated. I think maybe I was taken the wrong way? Chadd I think you hit the nail on the head perfectly though with learning what to look for while the person is skating then, whatever system you use will make your work on the skates (sorry cant think of the right word) as you get that feedback instantly. Then corrections can be made and you can simply go from there. Kinda like washing dishes rinse wash repeat...OK not really but I thought it was a tad funny.

[markush 12]

Finally found the right topic :)

So apart from the licensing etc. what benefits will both services provide over traditional approach? Which one of these two yields better results and why?

[Gummer12 134]

Did you read the thread??

[markush 12]

Did you read the thread??

Sure - hope you got me right. The interesting thing to know is what system will provide the best result (based of course on skilled guys using it) ? Or are they all performing the same level like Proskate AS2001?

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

A machine can not fix area's that may need to be altered. You need to be able to eyeball everything. If you want to rely on a machine to do the whole thing I would use Wally's.

That being said he uses both the Cag and the regular sharpening machine to do his process.

[markush 12]

A machine can not fix area's that may need to be altered. You need to be able to eyeball everything. If you want to rely on a machine to do the whole thing I would use Wally's.

That being said he uses both the Cag and the regular sharpening machine to do his process.

Thank you for your valuable feedback. What do you think about the Prosharp AS2001 ?

[TBR 11]

As for the new Blademaster CRM6 system.......LOVE IT. If I had not do ME and had the CRM6 available I would use that over anything else.

Totally agree. Blademaster's Custom Radius Mark IV system is awesome. The boot gauge alone is worth it.

[Wallyt 0]

PSB VS M E or other Company's !
PSB has patents on there machines and only have 25 balancing machines leased out to the NHL teams.They have not gone to retail till this year . We are reprograming our PSB machines and should be ready to go in late 2015. We are the only company that has a machine that maps and measures the hole blade. We are the only Company to laser precision cut runners rite from the factory and have 170 players in the NHL that we supply. We have added another 150 this year so we must be doing something rite at PSB . Our goal is to have 300 machines out there in the next five years that will have 142 programs that u can choose from. PSB will have a system that will sharpen and balance at the same time. This system will be computerized and will measure your angle of deviation also while sharping. What ever system u choose and u like it , stick with it. I helped develop the Quikbalde in 2006 and had 27 NHL players wearing them and using PSB system. When Skin's came the Canes he used the Quikblade and used the PSB system & won rookie of the year . I have been doing skates since 1967
in Leamington Ontario and start radius in 78 and helped start M E in 92 I know all the systems out there I started PSB 2005
because I was not happy the way MFG Company's cut runners and did there radius. I retired from the Canes last year to make things better for skate sharpeners and players .

A machine can not fix area's that may need to be altered. You need to be able to eyeball everything. If you want to rely on a machine to do the whole thing I would use Wally's.

That being said he uses both the Cag and the regular sharpening machine to do his process.

[Wallyt 0]

PSB is a CAG. Methodology makes sense but then again, you can still do that by a standard contour and then measure the ends and do it freehand. The only difference is you don't get to press a button and have the machine do it.

M-E is a sharpening method as well as a profiling method.

The truth is, you can run a successful business without either of those. You answered your question in your first reply.

I would like to answer JR ! There is a difference between Cagone and PSB machine . PSB takes the Cagone and we program the boards and have patents on balancing and profiling. We only have 25 machines @ this time. We are working on another programs so Head Equipment Mgr's and Retail Stores can do blends. Like 8/11 7/13 9/10 we will add another 42 programs to our memory. We will have them by 2015 for lease. If u keep up on ur balance points u will have better performance. We are the only Company that laser cuts precision runners with a high grade of steel . Only two Company's use this grade of steel . PSB & Step have been doing business since 2006 . We have 25 PSB machines that the Pros use . U can think about this one? No one balanced tire's till after the second World War ! U got from point A to point B try not balancing ur tires now? .

Thank you for your valuable feedback. What do you think about the Prosharp AS2001 ?

[Wallyt 0]

HeyJR, U need to be train on the Pro Sharp . If u do not do it rite the job it will be no good. U use a contour bar on blends. U have to keep and eye on the machine to make sure it cuts in the rite area. Whatever system u use is better than nothing. All systems are good u just have to figure out which one is the best for u . U will have make sure u can get ur money also. Just remember when u sharpen a radius if u do not follow straight across the wheel u can change the radius every time . When u sharpen a radius u will have to re profile it after about five sharpening's If u are real good u may get to 7? If u are are bad 2. ( Not Good ) ha ha Wallyt

[Chadd 916]

HeyJR, U need to be train on the Pro Sharp . If u do not do it rite the job it will be no good. U use a contour bar on blends. U have to keep and eye on the machine to make sure it cuts in the rite area. Whatever system u use is better than nothing. All systems are good u just have to figure out which one is the best for u . U will have make sure u can get ur money also. Just remember when u sharpen a radius if u do not follow straight across the wheel u can change the radius every time . When u sharpen a radius u will have to re profile it after about five sharpening's If u are real good u may get to 7? If u are are bad 2. ( Not Good ) ha ha Wallyt

We have members from all over the world, many of whom speak English as a third or fourth language. Not to mention, the older members of the site as well. Please skip the text style shortcuts and make a little more effort to be understood by everyone.

[markush 12]

HeyJR, U need to be train on the Pro Sharp . If u do not do it rite the job it will be no good. U use a contour bar on blends. U have to keep and eye on the machine to make sure it cuts in the rite area. Whatever system u use is better than nothing. All systems are good u just have to figure out which one is the best for u . U will have make sure u can get ur money also. Just remember when u sharpen a radius if u do not follow straight across the wheel u can change the radius every time . When u sharpen a radius u will have to re profile it after about five sharpening's If u are real good u may get to 7? If u are are bad 2. ( Not Good ) ha ha Wallyt

So does this mean when a new blade is profiled to let's say to a combi-radius of 9front/10back it should be reprofiled after 5-7 sharpenings?

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

Yes what Wally is saying is if you do not know how to follow the profile on the blade no matter what profile it is it will change slightly after just a few sharpenings. Now a very good sharpener can maintain the profile longer than a regular sharpener that does not know about profiling. They just tend to sharpen straight through the profile and it tends to go quickyly.

As he says find a method that works and is as consistent as possible!

[markush 12]

Yes what Wally is saying is if you do not know how to follow the profile on the blade no matter what profile it is it will change slightly after just a few sharpenings. Now a very good sharpener can maintain the profile longer than a regular sharpener that does not know about profiling. They just tend to sharpen straight through the profile and it tends to go quickyly.

As he says find a method that works and is as consistent as possible!

Oh, very interesting! Would sharpening with a machine like the Prosharp AS2001 maintain the profile and be a consistent solution? That's the only machine available in my area /LHS.

[jimmy 194]

The prosharp will maintain the profile much better and longer than hand sharpening, I think you'll be fine.

[Wallyt 0]

Hey Gang ,

Have not been on in a while. As for Bones question rads are fading out . Everyone is going to mm . I started doing rads in 1978 with the Wings then formed ME in 92 then in 2005 formed Pro Skate Balance . We are the only company that has patents on balancing and profiling Plus patent on locking mechanism on the Light Speed runner . We have patents on Pro Visor Attachments 27 out of 30 NHL teams use them for the half shield. U can now change a Visor in under a min. We laser cut runners for 182 NHL players & 12 Goalies . In June 2016 we launch our new machine that will do it all at the NHL trainers show . Here is a question for everyone . Does anyone know who developed the first radius bar??

Take Care Wallyt