New Strategy

[chk hrd 164]

With all of the confusion on head shots, targeting the head, glancing blows, what is and isn't a clean hit, how hard you can hit someone and how players with different heights affect head shots I have determined that the optimum player profile would be someone 5'-6" or smaller weighing 200lbs (muscle of course) built like a fire hydrant (hard to knock off the puck)...basically a entire team of Martin St Louis'. These guys could not be hit unless a normal sized player got on thier knees.

Shanny has a difficult job but sometimes the rulings don't make sense. I can see why players get frustrated on hitting. I never want to see anyone get hurt but giving players incentives to keep thier heads down and not on a swivel will get them hurt.

[IniNew 53]

I'm not sure what you're trying to say, but headshot rules work fine in leagues that actually punish for them.

[Speedz98 15]

Most checks should be delivered shoulder to shoulder in an attempt to knock a player off the puck.

[Capt.Hook 23]

I agree with you. The Lars Eller hit was garbage. Gryba or whatever his name is simply stepped up and tried to deliver a shoulder, head was hanging out. Targeting the head like that piece of garbage Matt Cooke should be totally hammered. However, the incidental head shots because people have their head down and are low is ridiculous. Just cause somebody gets hammered by a good hard one doesn't mean we need to give them a game misconduct.

I believe they are starting to reward head down hockey.

[zebra_steve 11]

Most checks should be delivered shoulder to shoulder in an attempt to knock a player off the puck.

THIS ^ ^ ^ ^ ... MOST of the BS that gets called a good hard bodycheck (at all levels, not just the NHL) has almost NOTHING to do with seperating a player from the puck beyond the pucks presence making the contact "legal". It's ALL about intimidation..... You want to make the game faster, safer, and more skilled then forget about legistlating against headshots and take the hits thrown to hurt or intimidate or where no attept is made to make a play on the puck out of the game - no matter if they call them "legal" now..... The players want the rules to protect them from themselves because they can't be expected to actually respect one another witht he pressure to win and earn all those mega$$$$ and NOT throw the big hit when they catch someone not looking or vulnerable.... They can't help themselves, they go for the big, intimidating, high injury potential play when far less contact would be a better option......

But this will never happen because the egos are too big, the old school is too entrenched, and the testosterone koolaid is brewed fresh and strong.... Oh,,, and don't forget the win at all cost attitudes....and the glorification of the huge hits.... If you're someone who can't stand watching hockey without seeing bone crushing, teeth loosening hits then what I've written will never make sense to you.... I want to see Speed, insane pass plays, great shots, and lots of glass ratteling from shoulder on shoulder contact... Sticks, elbows, and hands down.... make plays on the puckcarrier using you skill and position....

[chk hrd 164]

The players want the rules to protect them from themselves because they can't be expected to actually respect one another...

In the past you had an enforcer that taught respect and/or fear to players. I think what we are seeing now is what happens when you take this out of the game. Players are willing to step over the line.

[zebra_steve 11]

I will give you this... and I know the code all too well.... but the old code just doesnt apply too much any more..... at least not the way it used to....

The powers that be have pandered to the gladiator, MMA type mentality in search of marketshare....... The game I grew up in bears little resemblance to what is played now...

And if the Zebras were told to actually call the roughings, and boardings, and chargings, and Elbows to the definition of their rules rather than an interpertation that appeases the bloodthirsty then we would see just how great hockey can be.....

Anyone remenber how many vets retired after the first lockout 'cuz they couldn't keep up once they took out the obstruction?... Go back to that standard and take all of the BS Hits out and tell me what the game would look like?

[zebra_steve 11]

My big issue with "the enforcer" (other than he usually couldn't make the roster on his hockey skill) is that he also becomes a bodygurad - which now creates an unfair advantage through INTIMIDATION - oops there's that word again...... Just a different form of "Big Hit"......

And we get what we have now...... the "ya wanna go" staged fights.... and the head hunting and other BS....

[Chadd 916]

In the past you had an enforcer that taught respect and/or fear to players. I think what we are seeing now is what happens when you take this out of the game. Players are willing to step over the line.

Most of the guys that stir up trouble would just turtle now and their team would get a major powerplay in exchange for them eating a couple punches. Until the NHL gets serious with suspensions, the situation will not improve.

[zebra_steve 11]

+1 on the suspensions Chad..... The League has to set the bar and hold it....

This can be done by tightening up how the existing rules are interpreted and called.... but I bet that you'll hear a loud(er) roar of dissent from the players.... After all, If the style of accepteable play changes then someone loses a roster spot. AND more importantly, there are probably going to be some teams that have the wrong style of crop planted down on the farm teams.... they lose time and money.....

[chippa13 1844]

And therein lies the problem. Today's disturbers learned from the likes of Claude Lemieux that you don't have to be a stand up guy and take your licks, that you could pick and choose when you wanted to answer for your antics, if at all. That mentality changed the landscape for enforcers because they are no longer protecting stars. Enforcers did have the purpose of intimidating the opposition. You messed with their stars and you answered to them, took your beating, and moved on. There was a price for going after skill guys.

[zebra_steve 11]

The thing that I remember about Claude Lemieux was that he wouldn't stand up and fight, he was THE prototypical agitator. More amazing was that no one seemed to ever just try to just run him as payback... Or maybe my memory is a bit foggy and few teams\players lowered themselves to that level.....

Oh Capt.Hook - since I live in the 'burgh part of the state I get to see a whole lot of the "POS" Matt Cooke play..... I have to say that he's come a very long way in cleaning up his game.... Is he a clean player - NO, IMPO he dances on the razors edge of what is allowed... (Note I did not say legal)... He plays gritty and generally on the edge. The key to playing that way is knowing where the edge is....previously he had no clue and crossed the line often. Now he ets pretty close. The aforementioned Claude Lemieux made a career of dancing on that same edge and was a player that you'd rather have on your team instead of play against. I feel that Cooke is in the same realm...

[RadioGaGa 162]

All that really has to happen is guys have to start hitting through guys bodies and stop hitting UP into guys heads.Use Gryba and Eller as an example. If Gryba is 1 or 2 inches lower...again, not take out this knees low...and skates through him instead of up into him...Eller gets rocked....probably gets up. Maybe misses a shift cause he got the wind knocked out of him and that's all.

And, as I've said in other discussions...forget about "principle contact" being any kind of determining factor...if you hit a guy in the head, targeted, accident, secondary contact or whatever....it's a bad hit.

[chippa13 1844]

I would never accept Claude Lemieux on my team. Heck, I won't even look at Graf products since his name is associated with them now.

[chk hrd 164]

All that really has to happen is guys have to start hitting through guys bodies and stop hitting UP into guys heads.Use Gryba and Eller as an example. If Gryba is 1 or 2 inches lower...again, not take out this knees low...and skates through him instead of up into him...Eller gets rocked....probably gets up. Maybe misses a shift cause he got the wind knocked out of him and that's all.

And, as I've said in other discussions...forget about "principle contact" being any kind of determining factor...if you hit a guy in the head, targeted, accident, secondary contact or whatever....it's a bad hit.

I completely agree with players hitting through and not up. That needs to start at the youth level and the kids need to be taught how to hit correctly. I see way to many kids hit with thier hand and sticks high pushing the players at impact. If there is a size difference in players it can look like the taller player is hitting up when he is just hitting through and getting power from his legs. Some times you have no control and accidently hit someone in the head. If you have committed to a check and the player leans to receive a pass or poke check the what do you do? You had no intention of hitting him in the head, never made the head a point of impact but because the player put himself in a vulnerable position you head shot him.

I don't know if there is any real solution that will stop it short of no contact. Minimizing it is the best we can do.

[zebra_steve 11]

What level are we discussing..... it's a mess at the amatuer level.... probably more so now that checking was moved to bantam.... There is supposed to be an emphasis on teaching body contact at the mite\ADM, squirt, and PeeWee levels and checking itself at PeeWee.... I ain't seeing it so far - at least nothing consistent. In fact, I see and hear a lot of whining at PeeWee and Squirt when a team that doen't have a clue\is less proficient about contact goes up against one that is proficient.... to the point that I've seen kids say, "coach I don't wanna go back out there, they're checking us."... that was a player on my daughter's Sq A major team this past season!

Now at the Pro Level it gets back to the players respecing one another and throwing a check (NOT A HIT) appropriate to put themselves in a position to make the play on the puck.... I guess I'll never agree with those who say "hitting" vs "checking" because way back when I started playing I was taught a distinction between the two..... My opinion remains that most of what we see int he NHL is "Hitting" and not "Checking".....

But then again, the PRO game and the amatuer game are two different animals with the former frequently setting a piss poor example for the latter...

[chippa13 1844]

That gets to the point of players being overprotected. By that, I mean that they are used to playing in suits of armor so laying a huge hit doesn't hurt the hitter like it would have in days gone by.

[zebra_steve 11]

Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding!

Give the man a cigar...... I think this has been discussed before.... when the shoulder pads were basically a padded t-shirt with little shoulder caps you didn't have this crap - nearly as much... . won't beat that horse anymore, but others can fee free to take a couple whacks... What to do.... roll back the protection on those million dollar investments of expect them to play with a bit more respect for each other?

Hard to put the genie back into the bottle there...

[zebra_steve 11]

Ya know what I have not heard? I have not heard the players saing they want this stuff to stop... They have complained that guys are turning their backs on them so they cant hit them..... and what's this "reverse hit" BS... looks like roughing or interference to me... you stop making a play on the puck to throw a pre-emptive hit on an oponent that you have puck position on?

[chippa13 1844]

I've said numerous times that if the players truly wanted the bad hits out of the game then they would stop tomorrow. When someone lays out one of their teammates they are all up in arms saying it needs to be out of the game and what-not but when their teammate throws a bad hit they defend their teammate. Ference was lambasted for openly agreeing that Paille threw a bad hit last season. If more guys in the lockerroom held their teammates to the same standard they supposedly hold for opponents then peer pressure alone would solve the problem.

[zebra_steve 11]

I've said numerous times that if the players truly wanted the bad hits out of the game then they would stop tomorrow. When someone lays out one of their teammates they are all up in arms saying it needs to be out of the game and what-not but when their teammate throws a bad hit they defend their teammate. Ference was lambasted for openly agreeing that Paille threw a bad hit last season. If more guys in the lockerroom held their teammates to the same standard they supposedly hold for opponents then peer pressure alone would solve the problem.

Ahhhhh-YUUUP!

[Neal 41]

I've said numerous times that if the players truly wanted the bad hits out of the game then they would stop tomorrow. When someone lays out one of their teammates they are all up in arms saying it needs to be out of the game and what-not but when their teammate throws a bad hit they defend their teammate. Ference was lambasted for openly agreeing that Paille threw a bad hit last season. If more guys in the lockerroom held their teammates to the same standard they supposedly hold for opponents then peer pressure alone would solve the problem.

Ference is an interesting example. Because of his calling out Paille, you'd get the impression he plays a very clean game. But he's been suspended and for non-Bruins fans has a reputation as a player who plays with an edge, maybe even dirty.
To me, it makes it clear that how someone thinks on the ice is not the same as how they think off the ice with time to process.

[Capt.Hook 23]

I just think it's one or the other. All the obstruction went out the window after the lockout, all the hooking, holding, and slashing as long as you didn't take someone down. This definitely opened the game up and increased the speed of the game. With the increase in speed and emphasis on skill we now have dangerous hits surfacing due to the speed and stress on that. I don't believe anybody should target the head but hits happen in a split second and I strongly doubt Gryba was going for a head shot, just a good body shot and he caught him wrong as he came around him. I have little problem with Maclean calling out Diaz for making that hospital pass to Diaz and if I were Eller I'd hold myself responsible for leaving myself so vulnerable.

I remember years back when RJ Umberger got annihilated by Brian Campbell and he just laughed and said he should have had his head up.

I'm in no place to talk about the Code or anything like that. However, they continue to try and make this game safer and safer and I'm not happy with how it's continually punishing players who are physical. Just because somebody got hurt, doesn't mean it was illegal. It's a tough game that we'd all play better with our head up.

[zebra_steve 11]

I just think it's one or the other. All the obstruction went out the window after the lockout, all the hooking, holding, and slashing as long as you didn't take someone down. This definitely opened the game up and increased the speed of the game. With the increase in speed and emphasis on skill we now have dangerous hits surfacing due to the speed and stress on that. I don't believe anybody should target the head but hits happen in a split second and I strongly doubt Gryba was going for a head shot, just a good body shot and he caught him wrong as he came around him. I have little problem with Maclean calling out Diaz for making that hospital pass to Diaz and if I were Eller I'd hold myself responsible for leaving myself so vulnerable.

I remember years back when RJ Umberger got annihilated by Brian Campbell and he just laughed and said he should have had his head up.

I'm in no place to talk about the Code or anything like that. However, they continue to try and make this game safer and safer and I'm not happy with how it's continually punishing players who are physical. Just because somebody got hurt, doesn't mean it was illegal. It's a tough game that we'd all play better with our head up.

The Pros can really do whatever they want to do. The players and owners need to decide what they are happy with accepting... My only issue (and it may or may not have any bearing on this whole discusson) is that I see the BS the PROS do carry on down through the amatuers..... Where you are a whole lot more likely to see a kid caught with his head down and getting lined up for an unnecessary big hit when a well placed bump would result in the defender coming away with the puck instead of trying to find it in the rubble after blowing the kid up. AND, I see parents & coaches of players that can't catch the skilled kid tell their kids to "just hit them every chance you get - the harder the better". We'll accept a couple penalties if we take that player off of his game, or out of the game entirely. Mind that they are not saying to go out and try to hurt him intentionally, just punish him every chance they get. Now what's a 16 yr old in a testosterone cloud going to do?.....

Maybe the question does come down to whether you want to see skill or bone crushing hits....

As for RJ - I officiated many of his games in High School and Amatuers around western PA... That was a whole different era and style of play from today. It was pretty much old school call what you needed and let them play..... not quite "no autopsy not foul", but certainly not close to what we have now..... you had to have your head up ALL of the time and pretty much took responsibility if you got caught.... This style of play brought us the hits from behind and boardings, the high hits on the boards and open ice, as well as the old "dump the puck through his feet and hit him under the chin with both hands" play. It was(hard to make a call when both players were playing chin music...... Not to mention the slashes, the clutch and grab, and the brutal beatings that the D were allowed to give any forward that dared to venture into the crease.....

I personally feel we are much better off today. - as imperfect as it is.

[Capt.Hook 23]

I do feel like the pro game is getting way too much scrutiny and that people need to lighten up. It's so much less violent and nasty than the old days. The muggings that would take place as forwards tried to get to the puck by Defense were unbelievable. It wasn't what you could do with the puck it was simply getting there before the D pummeled you all the way there that was the battle.

However, I do agree with you. I'm a coach and taught my Bantam team this year to play with honor and not rail some poor kid with his head down if you could just poke it or bump him and take it. At the younger levels there are way too many opportunities for kids to get really hurt from hits that are unnecessary. I have a totally different standard for amateur play compared to the pros and am in full agreement with you. It is sickening and it angered me to hear parents telling kids to "take their number" and "teach them a lesson." I love the physical game and love a good hard check but you also need to show a little respect to other players and not victimize them when they are in a dangerous spot like Shane Doan did by not running Jimmy Howard a few years back in the playoffs.

In the pros however, I feel like we are trying to protect the players SO much that we are encouraging head down behavior. I feel like they are padded with the best equipment, have the best coaching, and make millions of dollars. I feel they should keep their head up and that the league should penalize intentional head shots and cheap shots of all kinds willingly but that just because a player gets hurt from a hit or intentionally gets hit in the head it is not necessarily an automatic game and misconduct.

However, you stating that the pro game then carries down into the younger levels is very true. This also makes me disgusted as I have to listen to parents come to me and discuss how "they were watching the Red Wings last night and I think we should . . . . " you can fill in the blank with some incredibly stupid idea of how some house league Bantam boys should employ the left wing lock or whatever. I can see how the hitting can carry down as well to that level and make it seem like blasting some poor bender kid in his first year of Bantam hockey can have some kid's dad telling him he's the next Dion Phaneuf or whatever.

My opinion is just that I like the fact that hockey is a tough game with skill and I think the league is "babying" up the pro game a little.

However, you make excellent points about the younger levels and inappropriate intimidation/hit to hurt tactics that shouldn't be coached and too much of the time are. My son is a skill player with good hands who doesn't do a lot of hitting and has tremendous self control. Seeing him take so many punches, slashes, hooks, and seeing so many kids try to run him the past two years in Bantam was discouraging. He sidestepped a kid who tried to run him so hard that he broke his wrist on the end boards. Another had to be walked off by his coach when he tried to run my son from behind into the end boards in another game. Another fine young man took his head and rammed it into the dasher boards. All this done to a kid who never says anything, plays hard, and had 2 minutes in penalties in 34 games this year. That's problematic and I agree with your assessment.