FWD Sportscard Powershot Stick Sensor

[shooter27 116]

Anyone ever seen this?

http://www.totalhockey.com/product/Powershot_Stick_Sensor/itm/14528-1/?mtx_id=0

Looks like it could be interesting, if it actually works. I'm not sure how you could measure shot velocity from inside the stick. You can measure swing speed, but that doesn't account for contact quality or any other factors.

[Souldriver 64]

never seen it but its interesting. for the price i think it would be more accurate to buy the sports radar they have for $50. the benefit of this is the app that comes with it.

[JR Boucicaut 3804]

We stock it in our store. We're waiting for one we can use in our shooting booth.

If customskateworks sees this he can provide better insight; he's been testing them.

[Malarowski 12]

Very curious about this as well. Seems really cool and a good way to analyze and improve on certain things.

[customskateworks 39]

Very cool product. I tested a few versions of it and was impressed with the results. It does add a bit of weight to your stick but since it's up at the top you barely notice it. It is designed as a "one size fits all", meaning its meant to fit a junior, intermediate and senior stick. It has plastic wings to help it stay tight in the shaft but I had to add some tape to make sure it wasn't moving around at all. It charges via a small cord that has a USB on one end, and the charge lasts decently long. I had mine paired via Bluetooth to an iPod and it does a good job of transferring the data in real time. Originally the app needed was only available for Apple products, but an Android version was being developed (not sure if it's available yet). The sensor is very sensitive so you need to set the parameters so it only records what you want. Otherwise it'll record every contact the puck makes with the stick. It's a solidly built product and has the ability to be upgraded as new versions of the app are released, meaning you won't have to buy a new sensor. The device records a lot of data that takes some time to get used to and understand. Things like puck speed, stick acceleration and rotational speed, blade angle, and the time between ice contact and puck contact are all calculated for you to view. You can also set up "events" so you can see all of your shots from a game or practice and share the data with other users or on social networks. By analyzing the data you can determine the point when your stick has lost its "pop", or use the data to compare how you shoot with different sticks.

[shooter27 116]

I'm really curious as to how it measures the puck speed of your shot being inside your stick. I can see how it can get your "swing speed" and I can see how it can get the speed of something hitting the blade, but how does it measure the outward bound speed of a puck? Generally that's something you need a radar for. Even if it has an ability to measure contact quality, I would guess it's hard to measure "Smash Factor" (Puck Speed/Swing Speed) from inside the shaft of the stick. Would love to hear from the company how they do it.

[customskateworks 39]

The device has multiple different sensors inside of it. It uses data you enter into your profile (height, stick, stick length, flex, etc.) to refine its calculations. It uses a series of algorithms to determine puck speed based on your stick's speed, stick to ice contact point, ice contact to puck impact point, and shaft flex. This technology is also used in golf to determine ball distance, slice or hook, and trajectory.

[AfftonDad 88]

That's pretty cool. I didn't think about the fact that they can tell when the stick makes contact with the ice and then when the stick makes contact with the puck. Since the force that your body is delivering at the point the stick hits the ice is going to be relatively constant they should be able to calculate (to some degree) how much loading you are getting by how long it takes between the time the stick hits the ice and the time the stick hits the puck (in other words by how much the stick speed slows down). I haven't thought about it much and I'm not an Mechanical Engineer anyway but it seems to me like there would still be some missing variables necessary for accurate calculations though. I imagine it probably has solid state gyros in it as well (like a cell phone) to be able to know stick orientation. It's a really cool idea.

[Souldriver 64]

questions. would this work with roller on a sportcourt or other surface? and would stick flex profile make a difference? im guessing if the stick is cut down so it feels stiffer that doesnt matter bc an 85 flex is an 85 flex no matter what the stick length.

[shooter27 116]

The device has multiple different sensors inside of it. It uses data you enter into your profile (height, stick, stick length, flex, etc.) to refine its calculations. It uses a series of algorithms to determine puck speed based on your stick's speed, stick to ice contact point, ice contact to puck impact point, and shaft flex. This technology is also used in golf to determine ball distance, slice or hook, and trajectory.

The technology they use in golf is radar and camera based (think TrackMan) and is done from outside of the club (from a stationary point), generally behind and to the side. That is how they are able to gather things like distance, ball speed, spin angle, trajectory, etc. The ballspeed comes from the radar which follows the ball. The difference here is that the device is in the stick, not external so it can't follow the puck to gauge speed. It can certainly measure those other variables that you mentioned, but without having some kind of radar component I don't know how it gets a true measure of puck speed..

There are devices in the golf world that attach to or go into the shaft of the club, but the ones that I have seen limit their output to swing speed and don't give a ball speed or distance readout. I'm not saying puck speed can't be done, I'm just curious as to how it can be done. I'd be interested to see the device's puck speed estimates side by side vs. a radar gun.

[customskateworks 39]

The technology they use in golf is radar and camera based (think TrackMan) and is done from outside of the club (from a stationary point), generally behind and to the side. That is how they are able to gather things like distance, ball speed, spin angle, trajectory, etc. The ballspeed comes from the radar which follows the ball. The difference here is that the device is in the stick, not external so it can't follow the puck to gauge speed. It can certainly measure those other variables that you mentioned, but without having some kind of radar component I don't know how it gets a true measure of puck speed..

There are devices in the golf world that attach to or go into the shaft of the club, but the ones that I have seen limit their output to swing speed and don't give a ball speed or distance readout. I'm not saying puck speed can't be done, I'm just curious as to how it can be done. I'd be interested to see the device's puck speed estimates side by side vs. a radar gun.

My mistake, I have a SkyPro I used for golf and it does not measure ball distance; it measures swing speed and club angles at 3600 readings per second. You pick which club you are using on the app, but without knowing the exact degree, club type, ball type, etc. it would be impossible to accurately calculate a distance. Same with the Powershot; there are variables that it can't possibly know unless you tell it. It will never be exact, but you will get a better feel for how you are shooting and when your stick is getting whippy. Radars have their drawbacks as well. Players in the hardest shot competition keep their shots low for a reason, to get the highest reading from the radar. I used mine against a radar and I know about how hard I can shoot. The there were times when the Powershot gave a reading and the radar did not, there were times when the radar gave a reading and the Powershot definitely overstated my shot, but there were also plenty of times where they were within a few MPH of each other. Bottom line, if for whatever reason you want a dead-on-balls reading on your shot speed, set up a closed environment with a radar gun. If you want a training tool to use during practices and games to learn more about how you shoot and what you can do to get better, get a Powershot. They cost about the same.

[shooter27 116]

That was kind of what I was getting at, I'm sure they can make an estimate based on input variables, but it's accuracy is subject to the quality of those variable and the algorithm used to calculate velocity. I was really wondering if maybe the had developed some kind of new technology to measure the shot speed, that would have been really cool if they did.

As for radar, of course it has problems, every technology does. Players in the hardest shot comp shoot low because of how radar works. My understanding (and someone please correct me if I'm wrong) is that radar measures speed by measuring the amount of horizontal distance traveled over a set period of time. When it comes to the hardest shot competition, if you shoot high the puck is not only traveling horizontally, it's also traveling vertically toward the top of the net, which means a puck shot towards the top of the net has to travel a greater distance to reach the net because it's traveling diagonally as opposed to straight ahead. Therefore, if two pucks are shot at the exact same speed the puck shot low is going to travel a greater horizontal distance over a set period of time because it's traveling in one direction (towards the net) rather than two directions of a puck shot high (towards the net and up in the air). Given how radar works, measuring horizontal distance, the radar is going to sense the low shot moving a greater horizontal distance over a set period of time and therefore give a higher speed readout.

[Souldriver 64]

Radar and lasers work by measuring distance over time. It does this by sending out "pings" and measuring the time it takes to get back to the radar. Sunchips the speed of sound and speed of light are both known we know that if the first ping takes 2 seconds to get back and the 2nd takes 1 second then the object has travelled xxx distance at xxx speed. shooting anywhere except directly at the radar would make the speed less.

But I would think with the algorithms there would be a way to calculate objects not coming directly at the gun Burkes I am not sure if there is or how much it would effect the speed.

[customskateworks 39]

It's accuracy is based on how directly the radio waves it emits are bounced back to the receiver. It's most effective at measuring speed when an object is moving toward or away from it directly on a similar plane. The radar knows an object's location and speed based on how long it takes the waves to return to the receiver. So if it is a puck coming towards the radar gun it would most likely not overstate the speed readout, but it could understate based on the angle the radio wave hits a particular surface of the puck. That's why stealth aircraft are shaped the way they are; to prevent the radio waves from being bounced back to the receiver.

[leonzhu 7]

Actually, most radars determine speed by measuring the change in frequency of the returned signal, or the "doppler" shift. Think the change in pitch of cars as they drive by.

They don't measure speed by comparing the change in position of an object over time, as that would not be 'real-time' enough.

Doppler radars measure absolute speed irrespective of direction of travel. However, i'm not sure our 200USD speed-trac uses doppler technology.

[Souldriver 64]

Actually, most radars determine speed by measuring the change in frequency of the returned signal, or the "doppler" shift. Think the change in pitch of cars as they drive by.

They don't measure speed by comparing the change in position of an object over time, as that would not be 'real-time' enough.

well yeah, thats what happens. i dont mean that they ping out two or three times and call it a day its continual

[lovejotd 1]

Has anyone found this to be useful?